Airplane ownership - real numbers

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

I've thought about this a LOT. Essentially since shortly after getting my PPL in 1993. Maybe it is the area of the country I live in, or something, but these numbes seem sort of low to me. I figured I could budget $5-7k and rent 50-60 hours a year. But to own . . . seemed impossible. But I was also thinking I would own a Dakota, Cherokee 6 or something similar so I could take everyone along. A hangar near me starts at $350/month. That is unheated. And with the snow, ice and other storms in the MIdwest, I would be nervous to be tied down (plus I would likely not fly most of the Winter, except this Winter when we are wearing shorts in February).

Anyway, my newest plan/dream is to buy an LSA. Ideally in a partnership. But I recently saw, in a facebook group no less, a sweet looking Aeronca Champ in Northern AI for $28k. I could pay cash for this, but better yet, pay cash for 1/2 of it. Anyway, so near me, I'd have the following fixed costs, correct?

Hangar = $350 x 12 =
Insurance - $1,200 (PPL 500 hrs no tailwheel time)
Annual (no mx) = $800?
Oil Change x2 = $300 to have someone do it?
Total Annual Fixed Costs, without flying an hour, $6,500

Then, hourly, would be gas (since my oil is covered above)?

What would an OH on a 65 or 85 HP engine be? $12,000?

I've read that recovering will do you in on one of these birds.

Anyone looking to partner in a Champ or Cub or other LSA at Lake in the Hills NW of O'Hare?

(And I thought the OP was on track to include the costs that nobody would consder - part of what holds me back from purchasing is all of those unknowns!!!)

 

[ktup-flyer]

Question is..will you stick to it?

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It's a pretty generous budget. Shouldn't be an issue, but who knows.

 

[mtuomi]

Just to give a data point, my 150M fixed costs are;

Insurance 443/year
Tiedown 168/mo
Annual with no squawks 1100/yr
Exterior wash 70/mo (I have it washed once a month)
Garmin Pilot 80/yr
Jeppesen DB updates 450/yr

Operating costs;

Fuel depends where I refuel, 17-35/hour
Oil 7qt/50 hours + filter = 1,4/hour (this includes oil change and 1qt I add have to add in 50 hours)

First 200 hours, random expenses, repairs and upgrades;

AI overhaul + new alternator 2100
Fixing electrical gremlins 1100
ACF50 300
IFR static check 300
LED lights 500 (landing light, wingtip and tail position lights, and tail beacon)
Glideslope receiver 25
TKM MX300 150
Mid-Continent MD40 annunciator/CDI 25
Wingtip strobes 140
Autozone portable compressor for a flat nose strut 35
Nose strut overhaul/reseal/install parts that actually belong there 200
Aircraft Spruce splurge (chocks, tiedown ropes, and a lot of stuff I don't need but that seemed like a good idea at the time) 400

I'm pretty sure that includes everything.
Bought the plane 1st of Oct 2016, flown 200 hours, so on average at this point my hourly cost is about 75 per hour. I keep my plane squawk free, and fly pretty much every day. If I operated it on a shoestring, I could easily cut the repairs/upgrades/fixed cost in half.

I bought my plane with 70 hour fresh well documented overhaul, I don't do maintenance reserves, I pay as I go, but add $10/hour if you want for engine/prop reserve.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@mtuomi - you've flown 200 hours in your C150 since October? In 4 months? WOW!!!

Are you a full-time student or instructor or something? How do you have time to fly every day? That is awesome.

 

[mtuomi]

@mtuomi - you've flown 200 hours in your C150 since October? In 4 months? WOW!!!

Are you a full-time student or instructor or something? How do you have time to fly every day? That is awesome.

I bought it from Tucson, AZ and I was living in the Bay Area back then. I then moved to Atlanta (so that's quite a lot of cross country flying to move the plane where I need it). I also have built some hours for my commercial and am now finishing my instrument in it.
My current main job contract is with an European company, so I do a lot of work late evenings. I have all day to fly

 

[denverpilot]

sounds like owning is 'SO CHEAP' that everyone agrees to delete or not track their total expenses.

Oh we track, we just never total. The data is all there in the spreadsheet, but why bother totaling it up? Either I'm going flying or I'm not, the total from last year, the year before, or last week, doesn't really matter much...

I also can total up every dime I've spent on cars and trucks over a two decade period. I don't, because I'm going to drive them, whether I know the current total number or not.

 

[eman1200]

Oh we track, we just never total. The data is all there in the spreadsheet, but why bother totaling it up? Either I'm going flying or I'm not, the total from last year, the year before, or last week, doesn't really matter much...

I also can total up every dime I've spent on cars and trucks over a two decade period. I don't, because I'm going to drive them, whether I know the current total number or not.

Totally.

 

[mtuomi]

Oh we track, we just never total. The data is all there in the spreadsheet, but why bother totaling it up? Either I'm going flying or I'm not, the total from last year, the year before, or last week, doesn't really matter much...

I also can total up every dime I've spent on cars and trucks over a two decade period. I don't, because I'm going to drive them, whether I know the current total number or not.

Yeah same here. I keep track of everything (including that air compressor I bought from Autozone ) This was actually the first time I add numbers up for a total, who cares. So far I've been able to afford it. If one day I can't, I'll sell it.

Owning completely changes the way you think about plane costs. When you rent, you only think "I'm flying from A to B and it will cost me this much". When you own, you think "I'm flying from A to B". And the "costs" become like putting gas in your car. It's just something you do without thinking much.

 

[DFH65]

In my current situation as much as I would like to buy but it is just so much cheaper to "rent". I have a J5 available to fly for $250 a year plus $50 an hour tach time. This arrangement requires a good number of hours as a volunteer to remain in good standing with the organization that owns it but I would do that anyway. I have a 172 I can rent for $120 an hour all in. I flew 46.6 hours last year and my total was just under $3500 this is actually high because it is based on hours not tach time for the J5 probably closer to 3K. Renters insurance with enough Hull to cover either plane runs under $700.

So really about $75 an hour all in last year. It would be tough to own for that.

The down side for me is both planes are about 45 minutes away so any single flight eats up several hours of time.

I have done the math a lot of times. Someday I hope to own and have the plane closer but then I would likely fly a lot more too.

 

[paflyer]

Yeah same here. I keep track of everything (including that air compressor I bought from Autozone ) This was actually the first time I add numbers up for a total, who cares. So far I've been able to afford it. If one day I can't, I'll sell it.

Owning completely changes the way you think about plane costs. When you rent, you only think "I'm flying from A to B and it will cost me this much". When you own, you think "I'm flying from A to B". And the "costs" become like putting gas in your car. It's just something you do without thinking much.

Does anyone think about how much it costs per hour every time they are in their house?

 

[JOhnH]

I wish hanger in our area were as cheap as yours. T hanger , no heat runs about 250 /mo here, 400 for heated

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I wish OUR hangars were as cheap as YOURS. My T is $420/month, not heated. Of course, nobody down here (Central Florida) has a heated hangar. Or at least a heated rental hangar. I do know someone that owns a big hangar for his plane(s), helicopter and cars, and his office. But he is there just about every day of the year. I could live in his hangar.

 

[paflyer]

Lol, yep. In my Excel logbook, I've also tracked receipts since my first flight. Over my 130 or so hours including my IR and various endorsements I've wracked up quite a bill. I recently told my wife what my lifetime flying total was and she got a little pale. Clearly, it was one of those "I didn't need to know that" moments...

Why would you even do that, much less tell your wife?

 

[genna]

It's true that non-aviators have no idea what it costs to operate an airplane. Recently a fellow employee as me to fly him to Idaho to get a new pickup he had purchased. He asked what it would cost me to fly my 182 to drop him off there. I told him around $400.00 & he hit the roof. He drove.

Before I get flamed...I did tell him I would cost share the expenses with him.

The fuel is only a small part of total ownership.

To be fair, most people do not really ever think about/know what it costs to operate a car either.. and they all drive them. Again, the fuel is only a small part of the total(or even per mile) ownership.

 

[labbadabba]

Why would you even do that, much less tell your wife?

Morbid curiosity and I'm a dumba$$ in that order.

 

[arkvet]

To be fair, most people do not really ever think about/know what it costs to operate a car either.. and they all drive them. Again, the fuel is only a small part of the total(or even per mile) ownership.

That's a great point... My wife drives a suburban. She joined a fitness club several months ago and has decided that the time she wants to go work out is 5:30 am. She comes home after workout and takes the kids to school at 8. The workout place also has a "class" at 8:15 just for those people that drop kids off at school. She works for my practice so she is free to workout basically any time she wants. It's about 12 miles to the workout place (24 miles round trip). She thought the price of the gym membership @ $60/month was high... and I haven't had the heart to tell her that working out 5ish days a week she's burning more than $60 EXTRA in fuel / month by going to the early workout rather than hitting the gym after dropping the kids off. The gym is just a few blocks from school.

Mere pennies compared to what I spend in airplane ownership but the point is the same... Most people have no clue what "cost of ownership" involves for a lot things, not just planes.

 

[DFH65]

Just figure you buy a car for 25K and keep it for 10 years. That is 2500 a year but nobody thinks about it that way. There is no reason you couldn't (and I am sure some do) buy a plane like a car put the minimum into it to keep it going no engine reserve no plans for paint or any of that fly it for 10 or 15 years and just assume the value at the end isn't going to be much hope it doesn't blow an engine while you have it.

 

[Cooter]

Just figure you buy a car for 25K and keep it for 10 years. That is 2500 a year but nobody thinks about it that way. There is no reason you couldn't (and I am sure some do) buy a plane like a car put the minimum into it to keep it going no engine reserve no plans for paint or any of that fly it for 10 or 15 years and just assume the value at the end isn't going to be much hope it doesn't blow an engine while you have it.

I actually do a rough calculation of price/month on our vehicles. It's not exact but it has the effect of persuading me to drive older vehicles and not go swap for a newer one when I get the urge.

 

[WannFly]

I wish OUR hangars were as cheap as YOURS. My T is $420/month, not heated. Of course, nobody down here (Central Florida) has a heated hangar. Or at least a heated rental hangar. I do know someone that owns a big hangar for his plane(s), helicopter and cars, and his office. But he is there just about every day of the year. I could live in his hangar.

ha i guess you dont care about heated hangar in central Florida... but guess a air conditioned hanger would be nice!! i found another carousal for $200 /mo non heated though and think i am going to use them when i have my plane (which seems to be an impossible task.. finding the right one)

 

[WannFly]

That's a great point... My wife drives a suburban. She joined a fitness club several months ago and has decided that the time she wants to go work out is 5:30 am. She comes home after workout and takes the kids to school at 8. The workout place also has a "class" at 8:15 just for those people that drop kids off at school. She works for my practice so she is free to workout basically any time she wants. It's about 12 miles to the workout place (24 miles round trip). She thought the price of the gym membership @ $60/month was high... and I haven't had the heart to tell her that working out 5ish days a week she's burning more than $60 EXTRA in fuel / month by going to the early workout rather than hitting the gym after dropping the kids off. The gym is just a few blocks from school.

Mere pennies compared to what I spend in airplane ownership but the point is the same... Most people have no clue what "cost of ownership" involves for a lot things, not just planes.

all great points actually. if i take .51 IRS calculation of per mile, which i think is less that what you would actually cost you to drive and also depends on what vehicle u drive, driving 300 miles and flying the same point A to Point B via flight .. the flight will only be little more than what my drive would cost. same with the ownership of a house, people only take into account the mortgage, not anything else like utilities and zillion other bills that comes with it.

 

[JOhnH]

ha i guess you dont care about heated hangar in central Florida... but guess a air conditioned hanger would be nice!! i found another carousal for $200 /mo non heated though and think i am going to use them when i have my plane (which seems to be an impossible task.. finding the right one)

Man, I'd LOVE To have an air-conditioned hangar. I was out there this weekend and it was like an oven. In FEBRUARY!

 

[Ted]

Just figure you buy a car for 25K and keep it for 10 years. That is 2500 a year but nobody thinks about it that way. There is no reason you couldn't (and I am sure some do) buy a plane like a car put the minimum into it to keep it going no engine reserve no plans for paint or any of that fly it for 10 or 15 years and just assume the value at the end isn't going to be much hope it doesn't blow an engine while you have it.

This is actually the way some people look at airplanes. There are a number of aircraft you can buy, especially in the turbine world, where you're basically buying the engines. Fly them for however long and then dump the thing, expecting to get little if anything out of it. I tend to look at airplanes the opposite - try to do strategic work on them that will increase their resale value. This worked very well on the 310 which is what allowed us to buy the 414. But I've also talked with people about airplanes and, for their situation, suggested a "disposable plane" because it made the most sense.

Cars I used to put a lot of work into (time, money, and effort). I've changed to treating them as more disposable and focusing mostly on what needs to be done only. I now focus my modification/upgrade efforts on aircraft, house, and tractors.

 

[skmoore63]

I spent around $14k my first year of ownership of a 1965 Mooney M20C, some of that was elective items to get the airplane where I wanted it (shoulder harnesses, spin on oil filter, etc.) but a lot of it was items missed in the pre-buy. The second year was less than half of that, the third year is going to be even cheaper.

But I have truly enjoyed it. I use it to commute to work (3 hour drive or a 1 hour flight) and every other trip I can use the airplane for. I'm flying about 150 hours or so a year now.

It's not cheap, but so worth it.

 

[hindsight2020]

This is actually the way some people look at airplanes. There are a number of aircraft you can buy, especially in the turbine world, where you're basically buying the engines. Fly them for however long and then dump the thing, expecting to get little if anything out of it. I tend to look at airplanes the opposite - try to do strategic work on them that will increase their resale value. This worked very well on the 310 which is what allowed us to buy the 414. But I've also talked with people about airplanes and, for their situation, suggested a "disposable plane" because it made the most sense.

Cars I used to put a lot of work into (time, money, and effort). I've changed to treating them as more disposable and focusing mostly on what needs to be done only. I now focus my modification/upgrade efforts on aircraft, house, and tractors.

Indeed. I fall in that former category you describe. I buy airplanes commonly available and replaceable and run them on condition with an emphasis on dispatchability and required maintenance. Cosmetics and avionics upgrade are purposely sidestepped, which hurts resale. In fairness, I do put a floor on already installed OEM autopilot and /G WAAS, especially with the commuting/leisure mixed use I do on the airplane and the looming 2020 mandate. On-condition treatment of the engine has treated me well so far.

I get a discount on the cosmetics at purchase time, and I take a penalty on resale for a higher time engine and low end cosmetics. Even in this setup, I'm not coming close to losing significant percentage (I consider 1/4 or more, significant) of the capital, so I don't really sweat the trade. In the end, I have an airplane that allows me to meet my mission on a sole ownership basis, which makes me continue to participate in the avocation. Works for me. To each their own.

 

[denverpilot]

Again, the fuel is only a small part of the total(or even per mile) ownership.

Depends on if they buy new/newish on credit vs buying old/oldish for cash. There's piles of running vehicles on Craigslist locally selling for slightly over one year's worth of fuel to operate them, out here in the boonies.

You could literally almost throw them away after a year and the acquisition costs would match the annual fuel bill.

 

[genna]

Depends on if they buy new/newish on credit vs buying old/oldish for cash. There's piles of running vehicles on Craigslist locally selling for slightly over one year's worth of fuel to operate them, out here in the boonies.

You could literally almost throw them away after a year and the acquisition costs would match the annual fuel bill.

Even taking acquisition/depreciation out of it on an old car, fuel(unless you are driving a 7mpg car) is only 20-30% of ownership cost. MX(scheduled and otherwise), insurance, registration, taxes, parking, etc... it all adds up pretty quickly

EDIT: I do realize that one can buy a 20yo Corolla and have it run mostly trouble free for 10 more years with very little cost, but that's not how most people buy/use cars.

 

[Shepherd]

$75/mo for a t-hangar here.

Don't make us come down there and hurt you.
The cheapest hanger rental in this area is $355.00 a month for an unheated "T" and they zoom up from there. It's $100.00 a month for a paved tie-down and $70.00 a month for grass. To buy a hanger will cost more than a 3-4 bedroom condo.
My wife says we have to get out of this place. I'm beginning to think she is right.

 

[Lon33]

If people kept a spreadsheet on the cost of raising a child, they'd be just as shocked as those who track their plane ownership expenses. Just being alive costs money. Spreadsheets simply focus attention on what those costs are, and that's something most people don't do with the expenses of ordinary life. My loving wife (who asks to fly with me) paid all the bills of sending our daughters to college and graduate school. She paid them from a checking account that I could sign on but never looked at. As a result, I have no idea what the cost was so it never caused me even a bit of discomfort.

 

[simtech]

Dang I can't get over what some pay for a t hangar or even a tie down spot. I pay $125 a month for an insulated hangar with electric doors. Push a button door opens, push button again it closes. I could not imagine paying over $100 for a tie down. Crazy, makes me appreciate where I live.

 

[midcap]

Dang I can't get over what some pay for a t hangar or even a tie down spot. I pay $125 a month for an insulated hangar with electric doors. Push a button door opens, push button again it closes. I could not imagine paying over $100 for a tie down. Crazy, makes me appreciate where I live.

I think it's $250 for an insulated group hangar down here.

 

[Caramon13]

I have a spreadsheet too for owning vs renting costs. The breakeven point for me is around 180 hours a year. If I fly more than that I get a bit more cost-savings buying vs. renting.

As it is, even during my busiest year, I only flew about 150 hours so, buying doesn't even make sense for me right now. That said, I do wish I had a reliable plane available whenever I wanted instead of picking and choosing the "least crappy" rental to go up in. Also, scheduling makes it difficult. I've got to book them out a few months.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Don't make us come down there and hurt you.
The cheapest hanger rental in this area is $355.00 a month for an unheated "T" and they zoom up from there. It's $100.00 a month for a paved tie-down and $70.00 a month for grass. To buy a hanger will cost more than a 3-4 bedroom condo.
My wife says we have to get out of this place. I'm beginning to think she is right.

Screw that. 22M and M72 are both $75 a month and within 15-20 mins of me.

 

[mtuomi]

$355 for a hangar? I'd jump on that in a second.
$168 for tiedown here

 

[Caramon13]

$355 for a hangar? I'd jump on that in a second.
$168 for tiedown here

$80 for a tiedown here in SRQ and about $450 a month for a hangar (if you don't mind waiting). The current T-hangar wait list is 40 people long and some have been waiting almost a year. That's for a 42' hangar.

A 48' hangar, people have been waiting since 2011, 38 people on the list and it's about $615 a month.

 

[wayne]

$80 for a tiedown here in SRQ and about $450 a month for a hangar (if you don't mind waiting). The current T-hangar wait list is 40 people long and some have been waiting almost a year. That's for a 42' hangar.

A 48' hangar, people have been waiting since 2011, 38 people on the list and it's about $615 a month.

That makes no sense, there's lots of space at SRQ. The should build more hangars.

 

[mtuomi]

$80 for a tiedown here in SRQ and about $450 a month for a hangar (if you don't mind waiting). The current T-hangar wait list is 40 people long and some have been waiting almost a year. That's for a 42' hangar.

A 48' hangar, people have been waiting since 2011, 38 people on the list and it's about $615 a month.

In PDK there is a 27 plane waitlist for public tiedowns. Didn't even bother asking about hangars.

 

[denverpilot]

Even taking acquisition/depreciation out of it on an old car, fuel(unless you are driving a 7mpg car) is only 20-30% of ownership cost. MX(scheduled and otherwise), insurance, registration, taxes, parking, etc... it all adds up pretty quickly

EDIT: I do realize that one can buy a 20yo Corolla and have it run mostly trouble free for 10 more years with very little cost, but that's not how most people buy/use cars.

You don't have to go quite that old. Plus there's other things that can be caused by unintended consequences like around here anything that won't pass an emissions test in town, instantly depreciates to nearly worthless -- so you go buy it for $3000 cash. Ha. Then if you've got morals you might buy it an O2 sensor. Ha. Or not.

Going back to airplanes, hangars can be cheaper if you have the option to buy them outright. We did that. We still pay the ground lease under it but the hangar is ours.

 

[simtech]

I think it's $250 for an insulated group hangar down here.

That's not horrible but ive been in the community hangar before. People move my plane and run golf carts into it and try to hide the paint scuff it made. I love having my hangar all to myself and for only $125/month. The south seems to have way cheaper prices than other parts of the US. Im cool with that too! haha

 

[Caramon13]

That makes no sense, there's lots of space at SRQ. The should build more hangars.

I think they actually are planning on doing that. But they gotta kick everyone out of their hangars to build the new ones lol...the plus side is that they will all but eliminate the waitlist. Maybe that'll be just in time for me to waste..I mean, SPEND money on a new plane and hangar a few years out

 

[midcap]

That's not horrible but ive been in the community hangar before. People move my plane and run golf carts into it and try to hide the paint scuff it made. I love having my hangar all to myself and for only $125/month. The south seems to have way cheaper prices than other parts of the US. Im cool with that too! haha

yeah a private hangar would be awesome. I don't know of any at the airports I work next to.

 

[simtech]

yeah a private hangar would be awesome. I don't know of any at the airports I work next to.

Come here, we had just over a year wait to get into a hangar. And now they just completed a brand new hangar with 8 electric door t-hangars and still for $125/ month. And the ones im in are not that old either and well kept. I was lucky when I moved in the previous renter painted the floor with the epoxy floor paint stuff. So I got an extra deal. haha