Airplane buying and dealing with unapproved repairs

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Ok, the latest question in my airplane buying saga is regarding dealing with previous un-approved repairs discovered on the pre-buy.

Pre-buy uncovered a couple previous un-approved repairs. Not too bad overall and mainly simple fixes - things like replace a few pop-rivets with cherry rivets....that sort of thing.

One, however is a little more involved - it appears that the right aileron inboard attach bracket was welded together at some point when it should be riveted. Sounds like the only way to correct this would be to cut it out and install a new riveted bracket, but I'm wondering how involved that would be? The guy who did the pre-buy said that while it was an un-approved repair, it looked like it was holding up well and not having issues.

Anyone ever dealt with correcting such a repair?
 
Sure, not uncommon at all to find cobbled-up work. Seller may insist it works fine, but there's no reason to buy his problem. Just remember the guy who buys it from you is going to find it as well. You got three choices.

1. Negotiate the price to include a proper repair.
2. Fix it on your nickel if the other aspects of the deal make it attractive to do so.
3. Adios.



Fearless Tower said:
Anyone ever dealt with correcting such a repair?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Sure, not uncommon at all to find cobbled-up work. Seller may insist it works fine, but there's no reason to buy his problem. Just remember the guy who buys it from you is going to find it as well. You got three choices.

1. Negotiate the price to include a proper repair.
2. Fix it on your nickel if the other aspects of the deal make it attractive to do so.
3. Adios.
Click to expand...

Agree with that assessment completely - and finding un-authorized repairs here and there on a 60+ year old airframe doesn't suprise me (if anything, I've been pleasantly surpised that there aren't more which has alot to do with why I am still pursuing this one).

What I am trying to do is get an idea of the cost/scope of repair associated with making it right so that I can decide if option 1 or 2 is better than option 3. So far all other issues on the pre-buy seem to fall into 1 or 2.
 
What kind of airplane and how is the bracket attached? Could be easy, could be hard. Could be one of those things where the messed up bracket is hiding a bigger mess behind it.

If it was me, I would make the deal contingent on an A&P of my choice successfully completing the repair(s) at the owner's expense.

Now that the owner is aware of the problem (and others are as well) he's in a legal pickle and *should* have the issues corrected before he flies it again.
 
kyleb said:
What kind of airplane and how is the bracket attached? Could be easy, could be hard. Could be one of those things where the messed up bracket is hiding a bigger mess behind it.
Click to expand...
1948 170 with the metalized wing conversion
 
kyleb said:
Could be one of those things where the messed up bracket is hiding a bigger mess behind it.
Click to expand...

Good point. If the bracket was originally designed to be riveted to the structure, the unauthorized weld may have ruined the piece of structure that the bracket attaches to. Dominoes...
 
The owner may not accept your guy's assertion that the repair is illegal. "I've owned this damn thing for 25 years, my A&P's have all signed off on it. How much longer does it take for it to be a good fix?"

kyleb said:
What kind of airplane and how is the bracket attached? Could be easy, could be hard. Could be one of those things where the messed up bracket is hiding a bigger mess behind it.

If it was me, I would make the deal contingent on an A&P of my choice successfully completing the repair(s) at the owner's expense.

Now that the owner is aware of the problem (and others are as well) he's in a legal pickle and *should* have the issues corrected before he flies it again.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
The owner may not accept your guy's assertion that the repair is illegal. "I've owned this damn thing for 25 years, my A&P's have all signed off on it. How much longer does it take for it to be a good fix?"
Click to expand...

In this case, the owner wasn't questioning it - he actually agreed that the weld made it an unauthorized repair. I do not believe the current owners (a partnership and one of them is the A&P who has been maintaining the plane) did the repair - they have only had it a few years and the plane has had alot of different owners over the last 63 years.

I got the feeling talking to the owner during the inspection that they were nowhere near as thorough when they bought into the plane - part of the problem of shared ownership and buying into a partnership by buying out another guy's share - you don't always know what you are buying into!
 
I agree with your assessment. Many of them slide through a number of years and a number of owners before somebody takes a hard look. Good to hear that the seller understands the issue.

Fearless Tower said:
In this case, the owner wasn't questioning it - he actually agreed that the weld made it an unauthorized repair. I do not believe the current owners (a partnership and one of them is the A&P who has been maintaining the plane) did the repair - they have only had it a few years and the plane has had alot of different owners over the last 63 years.

I got the feeling talking to the owner during the inspection that they were nowhere near as thorough when they bought into the plane - part of the problem of shared ownership and buying into a partnership by buying out another guy's share - you don't always know what you are buying into!
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Sure, not uncommon at all to find cobbled-up work. Seller may insist it works fine, but there's no reason to buy his problem. Just remember the guy who buys it from you is going to find it as well. You got three choices.

1. Negotiate the price to include a proper repair.
2. Fix it on your nickel if the other aspects of the deal make it attractive to do so.
3. Adios.
Click to expand...

You may add a fourth option,
4. retro fit the paper to make it legal.

not really that hard to do in this case.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Ok, the latest question in my airplane buying saga is regarding dealing with previous un-approved repairs discovered on the pre-buy.

Pre-buy uncovered a couple previous un-approved repairs. Not too bad overall and mainly simple fixes - things like replace a few pop-rivets with cherry rivets....that sort of thing.

The POP rivet is known as a HUCK rivet, because in 1948, that's all they had, and a cherry rivet is an acceptable replacement. if your mech didn't know that you should replace him, not the rivet.

One, however is a little more involved - it appears that the right aileron inboard attach bracket was welded together at some point when it should be riveted. Sounds like the only way to correct this would be to cut it out and install a new riveted bracket, but I'm wondering how involved that would be? The guy who did the pre-buy said that while it was an un-approved repair, it looked like it was holding up well and not having issues.

Anyone ever dealt with correcting such a repair?
Click to expand...

First, do you have the FAA CD for the aircraft history?
How do you know it was not an authorized repair?
Why are you worried about a repair that has been flying for how long ?
If your A&P-IA doesn't know how to retro-fit the paper work, he's what needs fixing.
 
If seller could/would do it and my guy was comfortable with it, I agree.

Tom-D said:
You may add a fourth option,
4. retro fit the paper to make it legal.

not really that hard to do in this case.
Click to expand...
 
Tom-D said:
First, do you have the FAA CD for the aircraft history?
How do you know it was not an authorized repair?
Why are you worried about a repair that has been flying for how long ?
If your A&P-IA doesn't know how to retro-fit the paper work, he's what needs fixing.
Click to expand...

I do have the FAA CD - but do not recall seeing anything about the bracket, I'll check again.

As for the pop-rivets, they were actually done within the last year (not 1948) - mild case of hangar rash - they scraped the wing tip on the hangar and repaired the skin damage - used pop rivets to put it back together. The other wing tip does not have similar rivets.

EDIT: Just checked, aileron bracket repair was not in the 337 file.

As for the A&P - this was an independent guy located in the same town as the plane - not the guy who would be maintaining it for me.

What would be the process to retrofit the paperwork for the bracket?
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I do have the FAA CD - but do not recall seeing anything about the bracket, I'll check again.

As for the pop-rivets, they were actually done within the last year (not 1948) - mild case of hangar rash - they scraped the wing tip on the hangar and repaired the skin damage - used pop rivets to put it back together. The other wing tip does not have similar rivets.

Isn't the wing tip on this aircraft covered with the metal? 48's have the fabric covering all over the wing. they were round tips formed by a bow, where is the patch? somptin smells.

EDIT: Just checked, aileron bracket repair was not in the 337 file.

As for the A&P - this was an independent guy located in the same town as the plane - not the guy who would be maintaining it for me.

What would be the process to retrofit the paperwork for the bracket?
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It starts with a request for field approval for repairs completed in the past by persons unknown, and states that this aircraft has flown XXXX hours with this repair, in this condition.

I've never seen one denied
 
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Tom, this is a metalized wing conversion, so no fabric left on the plane.
 
Have the current owner and his mechanic agree to correct the paperwork for the unauthorized repairs before delivery. If they can't/won't, then walk away.

The used airplane market is full of planes right now. Don't get hung up on one particular one. You'll have to kiss a few frogs to find the prince.
 
Why in the world are you considering what was a rather spritely little airplane with lightweight rag wings that was converted into a lead sled with metal wings?

Jim
 
Fearless Tower said:
Tom, this is a metalized wing conversion, so no fabric left on the plane.
Click to expand...

I understood that. so what you have is a a patch in the metal skin, held together with cherry rivets, and done as a minor repair. Is it entered in the log books?
 
Tom-D said:
I understood that. so what you have is a a patch in the metal skin, held together with cherry rivets, and done as a minor repair. Is it entered in the log books?
Click to expand...

FWIW:


From AC43.13-1B, Chapter 4

f. Blind rivets are used under certain conditions
when there is access to only one side of
the structure. Typically, the locking characteristics
of a blind rivet are not as good as a
driven rivet. Therefore, blind rivets are usually
not used when driven rivets can be installed.
Blind rivets shall not be used:
(1) in fluid-tight areas;
(2) on aircraft in air intake areas where
rivet parts may be ingested by the engine, on
aircraft control surfaces, hinges, hinge brackets,
flight control actuating systems, wing attachment
fittings, landing gear fittings, on
floats or amphibian hulls below the water
level, or other heavily-stressed locations on the
aircraft;
CAUTION: For metal repairs to the airframe,
the use of blind rivets must be specifically
authorized by the airframe manufacturer
or approved by a representative of
the FAA.
 
Tom-D said:
I understood that. so what you have is a a patch in the metal skin, held together with cherry rivets, and done as a minor repair. Is it entered in the log books?
Click to expand...
It is in the logbook - they took the curved metal wingtip off, repaired it and re-attached it to the wing with pop-rivets.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
FWIW:
CAUTION: For metal repairs to the airframe,
the use of blind rivets must be specifically
authorized by the airframe manufacturer
or approved by a representative of
the FAA.
Click to expand...

This aircraft has a structural repair manual, and is still supported by Cessna, the AC 43-13 can't be used as approved data for any repairs to it.

This aircraft is modified IAW the STC, the ICAs for the STC will dictate how it is to be repaired.

I'm too lazy to look it up but the Cessna structural repair manual gives the allowed use of Cherry max rivets. (yes they are allowed in most areas in the 100 series Cessna.)
 
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Fearless Tower said:
It is in the logbook - they took the curved metal wingtip off, repaired it and re-attached it to the wing with pop-rivets.
Click to expand...

explane pop rivet, what type? are you confusing a ACE hardware store rivet with a cherry max?
 
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Tom-D said:
You best be getting a very good deal on the aircraft you are looking for, because this is a nice unmodified 170/rag wing at under 30K

http://barnstormers.com/classified_507334_Cessna+170.html
Click to expand...

Asking price is the same, BUT this one has a 320 hr engine vs 1420 hr on the one linked. I'd rather not be looking at an ovehaul within a few years anymore than I wanted to recover that Citabria I was looking at a couple months ago.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just curious, what are you looking for and what kind of price range?

The reason I ask is sometimes the best deals are out there and not actually listed for sale. Put the word out that you're looking and see what pops up from that.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd describe it as looking - rather a matter of keeping my eyes and ears open for a good tailwheel a/c preferably under 30k located near me. It is not really a matter of wanting a 170 per se. If I had my heart set on a particular model, I would be going about this alot differently I suppose and I would not have even looked at a metal wing.

I happen to be fortunate enough to belong to a very large, San Diego based flying club with a fleet of over 40 planes where you can still rent a 172 or PA28 for 85-95/hr wet and twins for 200/hr. I don't need to own an airplane, but what I don't have access to right now is a tailwheel plane at my home field (MYF) and building tailwheel time is something that I have a desire to do. Hence, when I hear of an airplane that might fit the bill within the SoCal area, I look into it. If it doesn't pan out, I keep renting the nose-wheels and wait until the next thing comes along.

This partiular plane was only advertised in a SoCal aviation newspaper.
 
Tom-D said:
explane pop rivet, what type? are you confusing a ACE hardware store rivet with a cherry max?
Click to expand...
Not being an A&P, I probably wouldn't know my rivets - I am just using the description that the A&P who inspected the plane used. I would hope that he knows the difference.

But, I'd rather not get hung up on the rivet issue - assuming the rivets are not correct, it is still an easy fix.

The concern is about the aileron bracket. If they can make the paperwork retro-legal, then great. But if the repair was never entered in the logs (I'm having the A&P and the owner go back and check), then it may be hard to establish the validity of the repair for a 337, I'm guessing.

Here is where I would like to know what would be needed to replace that bracket? I imagine it would have to be manufactured since there is no specific part number for the bracket and it appears to be part of the aileron itself. I supposed you could replace the whole aileron, but I don't know of anyone that sells them - Believe it or not, you can get brand new wings for a '48 from Univair, but they come without flaps and ailerons.

Part of why I'm not super quick to just walk away is that I have already paid for the title inspection, FAA CD, and thorough inspection. And so far, I've found an airplane that meets my operating requirements, is free of many of the common type-specific problems, has no significant damage history and has a decent low-time engine.

Before I make any offer or verbal and written agreements, let alone wright a check however, I just want to make sure that I am getting an airplane that is legally airworthy or can be made legally airworthy within reason.
 
weirdjim said:
Why in the world are you considering what was a rather spritely little airplane with lightweight rag wings that was converted into a lead sled with metal wings?

Jim
Click to expand...

Actually the airplane only gained 30-40 lbs in the conversion. Not enough to really impact useful load as far as I'm concerned. It did slow it down a bit, but let's face it - no one buys a 48 170 (metal or ragwing) to have a fast x-country cruiser!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Actually the airplane only gained 30-40 lbs in the conversion. Not enough to really impact useful load as far as I'm concerned. It did slow it down a bit, but let's face it - no one buys a 48 170 (metal or ragwing) to have a fast x-country cruiser!
Click to expand...

But it sure is fun to out run the "A" & "B" s at the next 170 flyin.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The concern is about the aileron bracket. If they can make the paperwork retro-legal, then great. But if the repair was never entered in the logs (I'm having the A&P and the owner go back and check), then it may be hard to establish the validity of the repair for a 337, I'm guessing.

Here is where I would like to know what would be needed to replace that bracket? I imagine it would have to be manufactured since there is no specific part number for the bracket and it appears to be part of the aileron itself. I supposed you could replace the whole aileron, but I don't know of anyone that sells them - Believe it or not, you can get brand new wings for a '48 from Univair, but they come without flaps and ailerons.

The 48's hinge is simply a piece of standard AM/MS hinge, you buy it by the foot cut to fit, and rivet it in. the aileron is fabricated by metal working standard practices, using cessna wrinkle skins fabricated by 'Aircraft northwest, airmetal fabricators and a few others.

Part of why I'm not super quick to just walk away is that I have already paid for the title inspection, FAA CD, and thorough inspection. And so far, I've found an airplane that meets my operating requirements, is free of many of the common type-specific problems, has no significant damage history and has a decent low-time engine.

then buy it,,, that hinge is petty sh--, all these discrepancies amount to nothing.

Before I make any offer or verbal and written agreements, let alone wright a check however, I just want to make sure that I am getting an airplane that is legally airworthy or can be made legally airworthy within reason.
Click to expand...

If your A&P-IA is willing to sign the annual off as airworthy, why worry? There is only one question any new buyer needs to know from their A&P-IA, " what will this aircraft cost me to go thru next annual by you"...If that number is scary walk.
 
Well, that's not nearly all I want to know about a new plane, but I think his issue is compounded because the guy who's doing the prebuy isn't the guy who will be maintaining the airplane for him after the purchase.

If he's ready to make the offer, he should be sure his guy is on board with the scope and sufficiency of the prebuy, as well as the resolution of the problem with the bracket. When I work with a client on an acquisition, the involvement of the new shop is one of the requirements, and paying him for a day's time and travel to see and confirm is peanuts compared to the potential headaches that we may otherwise encounter.

Tom-D said:
If your A&P-IA is willing to sign the annual off as airworthy, why worry? There is only one question any new buyer needs to know from their A&P-IA, " what will this aircraft cost me to go thru next annual by you"...If that number is scary walk.
Click to expand...
 
There are no shortage of planes out there, so you can keep on searching to find the one you want.

Keep in mind that when you're dealing with something that is as old as the aircraft we're talking about, you are probably going to find unauthorized repairs if you look closely enough on any plane you're considering. I'm not saying that makes it right, I just think it's to be expected. Even in the case of the Aztec, which was known by the mechanics who worked on it for some years, we've found some repairs buried deep within the airplane that were probably done at least 15 years ago, maybe more, that were clearly not approved. We've fixed them as they've come up.

If you can find and deal with them over the course of the prebuy, that is definitely the best way to go. But don't be surprised if you find more as you own the plane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
no one buys a 48 170 (metal or ragwing) to have a fast x-country cruiser!
Click to expand...

Oh, I don't know. 4190V (48 ragwing) has about a dozen San Diego to Oshkosh lines (MYF-OSH) in her logbook before I sold her.

If you ever get to hear the "Fabulous Friday" recording that Dave Yeoman made back at Oshkosh before they had arrival procedures, the "red and white Cessna taildragger" on that tape would be me.

Jim
 
wabower said:
the guy who's doing the prebuy isn't the guy who will be maintaining the airplane for him after the purchase.
Click to expand...

If you are going to base at MYF, drop me a line if and when you buy your airplane. I've got a good friend that did my owner-assisted annuals at MYF for nearly twenty years. He is a PICKY SOB IA, but I learned a world about airplanes from him.
 
This reuqires a two-page thread? The economy sucks. Aircraft are selling for peanuts. Vote with your feet. Find an aircraft that doesn't have unapproved repairs, or make the seller fix the one you want by the book. It's a buyers market.
 
steingar said:
This reuqires a two-page thread? The economy sucks. Aircraft are selling for peanuts. Vote with your feet. Find an aircraft that doesn't have unapproved repairs, or make the seller fix the one you want by the book. It's a buyers market.
Click to expand...

If you don't like the length of the thread and don't have anything constructive to add (that hasn't already been mentioned before), then why bother posting what others have already posted and increase the length of the thread???
 
weirdjim said:
Oh, I don't know. 4190V (48 ragwing) has about a dozen San Diego to Oshkosh lines (MYF-OSH) in her logbook before I sold her.
Click to expand...

When did you sell it?

Just looked up 4190V - it's a 172.

There was a 4190V C-170 that wrecked in AK back in '93. That the one?
 
Fearless Tower said:
When did you sell it?

Just looked up 4190V - it's a 172.

There was a 4190V C-170 that wrecked in AK back in '93. That the one?
Click to expand...

Dunno about the wreck; I sold her sometime around '74 or so.

Airplanes I've owned:

2014V C-120
4190V C-170
3618S C-172
73CQ C-182 (current)


Jim
 
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