Airliners and Icing/deicing

With cold air over so much of the country right now, are there any requirements that airports have de-ice capabilities for the airlines?
 
Lando said:
With cold air over so much of the country right now, are there any requirements that airports have de-ice capabilities for the airlines?
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No requirements but if they want to run an airline they'd better have it. The airline that is, not the airport. All the major airlines have their own equipment. Some share other airlines stuff, mostly regionals. It was worse when regionals were referred to as commuters. I remember having to wait for the sun to do it when Delta had equipment there, and we were carrying Delta passengers, but couldn't use Delta equipment. Crazy times.
 
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Lando said:
With cold air over so much of the country right now, are there any requirements that airports have de-ice capabilities for the airlines?
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The only requirement is that the airplane must be free from contamination for takeoff.
 
Referencing a previous post about a passenger speaking up about an airliner not being deiced....a former F/O and a member of our safety committee was being dead headed on a Value Jet DC-9 out of Louisville in the winter and had to call the flight attendant when they blocked out and said to tell the crew that the wing was contaminated. She went forward and came back and said the Captain said no problem and to take his seat. He was in uniform. He told her that if they did not return then he wanted off the plane now and to tell the Captain he was calling the FAA right now. He had his cellphone and had the number pulled up. There was enough ruckus that the Captain came back and glared at him and under his breath told him to sit down and shut up. Several other passengers said they wanted off too. They went back in and got deiced. A normal passenger would not gotten the same response.
 
skier said:
I recently flew commercially (Southwest on a 737) and there was freezing rain predicted from 11pm to 9am. My flight was at 5:30am. As a result I didn't think we would end up taking off, but we did make it out with "only" a 60 minute delay. I started doing some research which quickly led me to discussions of holdover times, type IV deicing fluid, etc. and shortly thereafter got in over my head.

After boarding the aircraft, there was a visible layer of ice covering the wings and the freezing rain was increasing in intensity. They went around the aircraft spraying something on it that appeared to blast all the ice off the surfaces. That was followed up with a green fluid that my research suggests is Type 4 deicing fluid. We then taxied to the runway and took off.
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Southwest de-ices?

Must say I’m pleasantly surprised. Last time I was in Denver, everybody was going to the de-ice pad....except SWA. They said ‘screw that’ and went straight for the runway. I guess they figured they were taxiing too fast for anything to stick.
 
MD11Pilot said:
Referencing a previous post about a passenger speaking up about an airliner not being deiced....a former F/O and a member of our safety committee was being dead headed on a Value Jet DC-9 out of Louisville in the winter and had to call the flight attendant when they blocked out and said to tell the crew that the wing was contaminated. She went forward and came back and said the Captain said no problem and to take his seat. He was in uniform. He told her that if they did not return then he wanted off the plane now and to tell the Captain he was calling the FAA right now. He had his cellphone and had the number pulled up. There was enough ruckus that the Captain came back and glared at him and under his breath told him to sit down and shut up. Several other passengers said they wanted off too. They went back in and got deiced. A normal passenger would not gotten the same response.
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Good on the commuter for standing up to that airline get-there-itis. Passengers certainly don't get that benefit, nor do they routinely have the information or knowledge to be able to make a discerned safety call such as that. And we know what happens when the chucklehead left seater and the ground "support" agencies both roll snake eyes. Swiss Cheese.
 
Larry in TN said:
The only requirement is that the airplane must be free from contamination for takeoff.
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Actually, I was questioning whether the airlines require airports to have de-ice fluid on hand. It’s not unheard of to have frost in FL, and if an aircraft was contaminated the only option would be to wait for the sun to come out if there wasn’t fluid available (this would probably be most relevant for early morning flights).
 
Lando said:
Actually, I was questioning whether the airlines require airports to have de-ice fluid on hand.
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They balance the climate at the airport location and estimated impact on the schedule against the cost of providing de-ice/anti-icing capabilities. There are airports where no de-icing capabilities are maintained by the airport or airlines.
 
Lando said:
With cold air over so much of the country right now, are there any requirements that airports have de-ice capabilities for the airlines?
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When I was at American we ran out. Shut down DFW for American, delta didn't want to share. It's the operator's responsibility to have it or to contract someone to do it for you.
 
Lando said:
Actually, I was questioning whether the airlines require airports to have de-ice fluid on hand. It’s not unheard of to have frost in FL, and if an aircraft was contaminated the only option would be to wait for the sun to come out if there wasn’t fluid available (this would probably be most relevant for early morning flights).
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It's on the operator, not the airport. I imagine fbos provide the service at some locations.
 
Lando said:
With cold air over so much of the country right now, are there any requirements that airports have de-ice capabilities for the airlines?
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Cold air in and of itself does not constitute the need for deicing.
But more precisely to your question, no.
If am airlne rather cancel flights vs deice, that’s their perogative.
 
Paulie said:
It's on the operator, not the airport. I imagine fbos provide the service at some locations.
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This is the case at a small airport like PIA. The FBO provides the service and bills each airline. Same with fuel.
 
Larry in TN said:
You'd think that the Type II would be more expensive than Type I for di-icing, but who knows?
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Yeah, who knows... all they have there is Type II. Maybe it’s cheaper for them to just carry one Type than worry about stocking both Types I & II.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Yeah, who knows... all they have there is Type II. Maybe it’s cheaper for them to just carry one Type than worry about stocking both Types I & II.
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We don't run into that on my fleet on our international flights to places like Aruba and Cabo...
 
Sluggo63 said:
Yeah, who knows... all they have there is Type II. Maybe it’s cheaper for them to just carry one Type than worry about stocking both Types I & II.
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The lesson DEN should have learned is that they lost too much time switching between types during crunch time. Dunno if they’ve ever figured it out.
 
I have been on a flight on Delta out of PHX where they did not board until after sunrise because that was their only available means of removing frost from the plane. I am guessing that PHX is the biggest airport where major airlines' deicing plan is "it is not needed often enough to spend money on" but I don't imagine it's the only one.
 
Clark1961 said:
The lesson DEN should have learned is that they lost too much time switching between types during crunch time. Dunno if they’ve ever figured it out.
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Don’t think so. Last time I had to de-ice was at DEN in November. Took them a rather lengthy time to complete with a fair amount of down time between actually spraying stuff on the aircraft.

Pathetic thing was how they were spraying. They probably only got maybe 30% of the fluid on the actual airplane. The rest was taken away by the wind.
 
Clark1961 said:
The lesson DEN should have learned is that they lost too much time switching between types during crunch time. Dunno if they’ve ever figured it out.
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It shouldn't take any time at all to switch between Type I and Type IV. Both are carried on the same truck. The operator just throws a switch and they are spraying the other fluid.
 
Larry in TN said:
It shouldn't take any time at all to switch between Type I and Type IV. Both are carried on the same truck. The operator just throws a switch and they are spraying the other fluid.
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Maybe the operators at DEN (Swissport) are just challenged?
 
I think DEN is tough for anyone that doesn't have 'United' written on the side of their jet. When there's a big push, it can be a long wait for us peasants being sent to the WA deice pad. :)
 
The Canadians are the best. They spray our RJs with I and IV in like 10 minutes. PIT took forever to spray us down. I can’t imagine how long it would have taken them to do a mainline plane.
 
jordane93 said:
The Canadians are the best. They spray our RJs with I and IV in like 10 minutes. PIT took forever to spray us down. I can’t imagine how long it would have taken them to do a mainline plane.
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Yeah like Toronto, like a drive thru and they use fixed little towers on both sides of the plane, so it's quick and organized.
 
Larry in TN said:
They likely had some other, unrelated, problem that caused a delay.
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Don’t think so. I was watching the trucks de-ice our aircraft and the two next to us. Same process. Lot of down time between spraying different fluid.
 
I wasn't there but can say that a long delay to switch fluids is not part of the process.
 
Super 80s were a real problem, the wings would make ice on a 60 degree high humidity day. AA had one with the bottom of one wing painted black. Unlike Boeing they didn't have a hydraulic to fuel heat exchanger in the wing and those skinny short wings had something to do with it. Never found a good solution, every other type in the fleet would have no need for deice but the 80s would be getting sprayed. Mechanics had to be positioned at de-ice station and sign off on condition. Really lousey job. The ice formed after fueling and turn around time was less than 45 minutes.
 
Paulie said:
Never found a good solution, every other type in the fleet would have no need for deice but the 80s would be getting sprayed. Mechanics had to be positioned at de-ice station and sign off on condition. Really lousey job. The ice formed after fueling and turn around time was less than 45 minutes.
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In my MD-80 days, our manual allowed us to take off with frost on the upper and lower surfaces of the wing where the fuel tanks were. I guess we had a more laid back POI. ;)
 
kayoh190 said:
In my MD-80 days, our manual allowed us to take off with frost on the upper and lower surfaces of the wing where the fuel tanks were. I guess we had a more laid back POI. ;)
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Guess so, but we routinely had 1/2" of ice.
 
Paulie said:
Guess so, but we routinely had 1/2" of ice.
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Oh wow - I didn't realize it got that thick. I think we were only allowed to 1/8", which seemed to work okay for us.
 
Deicing delays are routine everywhere that they deice. I'm talking about the process for switching from between Type I and Type IV between the de-ice and anti-ice applications.
 
Larry in TN said:
Deicing delays are routine everywhere that they deice. I'm talking about the process for switching from between Type I and Type IV between the de-ice and anti-ice applications.
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Not sure if your guys that handle the WA deice pad or not, but they run a truck on each side of the plane that can switch fluids like you said. Probably takes 15-20 minutes total for Type I everywhere and Type IV wings and tail. Our problem is that WA has 6 bays and handles a number of airlines, so the lines get pretty long while you guys seem to have access to a much larger number of bays for your fleet.

That said, I'm not complaining. We're strangers in your backyard, so I expect to be treated like red-headed stepchildren! :)
 
Paulie said:
Super 80s were a real problem, the wings would make ice on a 60 degree high humidity day. AA had one with the bottom of one wing painted black. Unlike Boeing they didn't have a hydraulic to fuel heat exchanger in the wing and those skinny short wings had something to do with it. Never found a good solution, every other type in the fleet would have no need for deice but the 80s would be getting sprayed. Mechanics had to be positioned at de-ice station and sign off on condition. Really lousey job. The ice formed after fueling and turn around time was less than 45 minutes.
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A300 is bad about that also. We’re always having to spray the outer wings when no one else is. Outer tanks are burned last and rarely do we even burn anything out of them so the fuel gets cold soaked.
 
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