Airline Hiring? What the???

[jrdodge]

Today I ran into my old flight instructor as we were both home on vacation. He recently started with PSA Airlines and we got to talking about the hiring practices.

1. Those that buy their way in. I don't understand how some airlines have special agreements to hire FO's with less time. Another college friend of mine went to ATP and was hired by Express Jet with 550 TT and 150 ME. The same time period, I submitted my resume when I had 700 TT and 150 ME and I was told I didn't have enough experience. I have heard them hiring with as little as 300 TT. That is insane as far as I am concerned. Plus these pilots haven't (in my opinion) really worked to get there. My buddy's training captain (with PSA) said there is a clear distinction between those pilots who bought there way in and those that have sacrificed everything to be there.

2. The interviews. The PSA FO went on many interviews before landing a job. He said some guys got to the interview and were sent home because they didn't have enough time. If they didn't meet the requirements, why did they get the interview? He also mentioned how guys were eliminated because of their written exam, oral or sim at the end of the day instead of after they failed one area.

3. The starting salaries. How do they expect anyone to live off of that? Great Lakes starts their FO's at somewhere around $17k. I think the average is about $20k. With a four year education and pilot training, this is what you get? This is poverty. Pretty sure I could make more at McDonalds.

The whole situation amazes me. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Bottom line is people are willing to prostitute themselves for something they love. And management exploits that.

I would be interested to know who some of the senior people are there at PSA. I used to work for them in '87 to '89 when they were Jetstream International.

 

[Henning]

Today I ran into my old flight instructor as we were both home on vacation. He recently started with PSA Airlines and we got to talking about the hiring practices.

1. Those that buy their way in. I don't understand how some airlines have special agreements to hire FO's with less time. Another college friend of mine went to ATP and was hired by Express Jet with 550 TT and 150 ME. The same time period, I submitted my resume when I had 700 TT and 150 ME and I was told I didn't have enough experience. I have heard them hiring with as little as 300 TT. That is insane as far as I am concerned. Plus these pilots haven't (in my opinion) really worked to get there. My buddy's training captain (with PSA) said there is a clear distinction between those pilots who bought there way in and those that have sacrificed everything to be there.

2. The interviews. The PSA FO went on many interviews before landing a job. He said some guys got to the interview and were sent home because they didn't have enough time. If they didn't meet the requirements, why did they get the interview? He also mentioned how guys were eliminated because of their written exam, oral or sim at the end of the day instead of after they failed one area.

3. The starting salaries. How do they expect anyone to live off of that? Great Lakes starts their FO's at somewhere around $17k. I think the average is about $20k. With a four year education and pilot training, this is what you get? This is poverty. Pretty sure I could make more at McDonalds.

The whole situation amazes me. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Easy, people will work for peanuts doing what they think they want to do, to the basic law of economics takes over (supply v. demand) and you end up with a bunch of people flying for peanuts. This is not confidence inspiring, since most of the talent and skill will also be good at other things that pay much more, and will typically follow the money. I know I did. I figured I was gonna make 18k that year for Express 1. After 3 months, I couldn't do it and took an offer to run a boat that was paying $550 a day.
Makes you wonder about who's left.

 

[woodstock]

are flying time mins FAA mandated? it really does amaze me what people will tolerate money wise. any time I've talked to a pilot/co pilot on any of my flights, and I tell them I am taking lessons but "just flying little 172s" they say "well, that is real flying!". to think they would do much better as a line cook, AND a CFI on the side, is sobering.

my friend John is 37 and a year or two ago quit his decent-paying job to work the airlines. making 18K a year. I think he is nuts. yes, he's wanted to do this his whole life, but he's picked a bad time to do it - prime money making years (and sock stuff away etc).

apart from the fact that by the time you've reached 37, you may as well work in a lucrative job another decade then retire early (with cash) to pursue your dream, he's also limiting himself - he knows he can't start a family on 18K a year (which he wants to do, sooner rather than later) and he is still single. I hear the stories about being away about half the time in hotels (and crash pads) and it sure sounds like something someone in their 20s would suck up, but 37? ouch. at least if you have a prior long career you've already bought your house and can "afford" not to make money for a while.

 

[Richard]

The FAA mins apply to acting PIC. Pilots who do not fulfill the minimum requirements will be limited to SIC only. What happens when they reach the mins and how they make the transition is best explained by others here.

Some of those pilots fall for the ruse of gaining SIC on an a/c which is single pilot certified. Other than gaining operational experience for that make and model the time is worthless.

are flying time mins FAA mandated? it really does amaze me what people will tolerate money wise. any time I've talked to a pilot/co pilot on any of my flights, and I tell them I am taking lessons but "just flying little 172s" they say "well, that is real flying!". to think they would do much better as a line cook, AND a CFI on the side, is sobering.

my friend John is 37 and a year or two ago quit his decent-paying job to work the airlines. making 18K a year. I think he is nuts. yes, he's wanted to do this his whole life, but he's picked a bad time to do it - prime money making years (and sock stuff away etc).

apart from the fact that by the time you've reached 37, you may as well work in a lucrative job another decade then retire early (with cash) to pursue your dream, he's also limiting himself - he knows he can't start a family on 18K a year (which he wants to do, sooner rather than later) and he is still single. I hear the stories about being away about half the time in hotels (and crash pads) and it sure sounds like something someone in their 20s would suck up, but 37? ouch. at least if you have a prior long career you've already bought your house and can "afford" not to make money for a while.

But your friend is pursuing his dream. That is a worthy pursuit even if the cost is high. Besides, who knows what is to come? A guy could strive all his life for a goal (ex: financial freedom) and never reach it. In the mean time, he still has that dream but it is unfulfilled.

The pursuit of a dream, even if unobtained, is far better than riches because it is the pursuit and enduring what it takes to continue the pursuit which defines the man better than any desk job could. Perhaps it is selfish to indulge oneself in such a manner but at this point he does not have the responsibility to a family.

 

[woodstock]

well, I'm already seeing chinks in the armor - he loves flying the jets but pretty much every other aspect of the job (including salary) sucks & he could take it or leave it. I asked him when he started if he gave himself a timeline for how long before it was either out of his system or he would just decide he couldn't live on that salary (I think he said it would take five years to get up to 50 grand) and he said he wasn't sure. I haven't asked him again but from what he's telling me, dunno....

yeah, I did the same thing when I was 35 - quit a job and took off for Europe to see if I could find something and move there. had a BLAST, learned a ton, and not only about myself... but I'm just as glad I didn't find something and came home. after about 8 months the bloom was off the rose and had I actually found something and moved I don't think I'd have been very happy for very long (I would have achieved it but then what?) not to mention over there I'd be making roughly a fifth of what I am making today - forget that. the days of renting and roommates - no way.

 

[EdFred]

1. Those that buy their way in. I don't understand how some airlines have special agreements to hire FO's with less time. Another college friend of mine went to ATP and was hired by Express Jet with 550 TT and 150 ME. The same time period, I submitted my resume when I had 700 TT and 150 ME and I was told I didn't have enough experience. I have heard them hiring with as little as 300 TT. That is insane as far as I am concerned. Plus these pilots haven't (in my opinion) really worked to get there. My buddy's training captain (with PSA) said there is a clear distinction between those pilots who bought there way in and those that have sacrificed everything to be there.

Because the airlines know what sort of training the candidate had when they come out of DCA, PanAm, ATP, etc. At the FO factories they pretty much only train for airline type flying. So there is no learning curve transition CRM wise that they will have to put someone else through. Are the factory pilots better pilots? Who knows, but they are a known quantity. You have enough time to qualify, but are your hours all instruction hours where you aren't really flying, or are all your hours hands on hours? Are your hours all time in the pattern? Are they all cross country? The don't know. But the candidates from a school, they do know.

2. The interviews. The PSA FO went on many interviews before landing a job. He said some guys got to the interview and were sent home because they didn't have enough time. If they didn't meet the requirements, why did they get the interview? He also mentioned how guys were eliminated because of their written exam, oral or sim at the end of the day instead of after they failed one area.

Your guess is as good as mine.

3. The starting salaries. How do they expect anyone to live off of that? Great Lakes starts their FO's at somewhere around $17k. I think the average is about $20k. With a four year education and pilot training, this is what you get? This is poverty. Pretty sure I could make more at McDonalds.

If I own a business and I get two people applying for a job and they both meet what I need, I'm taking the guy who will do it for less. No offense but sitting right seat isn't the most demanding job in the world. My old CFI just started flying for ComAir, and he laughs about how easy it is. "We program everything into the FMS, and set the A/P at xxxx feet, and get out the newspaper." No offense to anyone here, but flying really isn't all that difficult. Paying someone $17k to read a newspaper, seems that as a business owner **I** am getting ripped off.

 

[Michael]

The pursuit of a dream, even if unobtained, is far better than riches because it is the pursuit and enduring what it takes to continue the pursuit which defines the man better than any desk job could.

Yea, but with riches, you could buy better dreams!
kidda a toss up in my mind.

 

[woodstock]

Yea, but with riches, you could buy better dreams!
kidda a toss up in my mind.

amen Michael! you and I see eye to eye on this one.

If I own a business and I get two people applying for a job and they both meet what I need, I'm taking the guy who will do it for less. No offense but sitting right seat isn't the most demanding job in the world. My old CFI just started flying for ComAir, and he laughs about how easy it is. "We program everything into the FMS, and set the A/P at xxxx feet, and get out the newspaper." No offense to anyone here, but flying really isn't all that difficult. Paying someone $17k to read a newspaper, seems that as a business owner **I** am getting ripped off.

well, but you aren't really paying him to read the paper? you're paying him to be there in case of an emergency, or to take a load off of the captain. and how much more do captains make? at the regionals it isn't much more than 60 is it? that's still not enough for a family. don't know what the big boys pay.

 

[EdFred]

well, but you aren't really paying him to read the paper? you're paying him to be there in case of an emergency, or to take a load off of the captain. and how much more do captains make? at the regionals it isn't much more than 60 is it? that's still not enough for a family. don't know what the big boys pay.

There are a lot of jobs that aren't enough to raise a family on. This is one where it's a definite choice that you make and aren't "forced" into it like non-skilled labor. Everyone knows they will only make $17-$20k when they go that route. They have no right to complain. Want them to make more money, double ticket prices. Oooops, less people flying. I have no sympathy for people who choose to go into a career when they KNOW that it doesn't pay much.

 

[woodstock]

There are a lot of jobs that aren't enough to raise a family on. This is one where it's a definite choice that you make and aren't "forced" into it like non-skilled labor. Everyone knows they will only make $17-$20k when they go that route. They have no right to complain. Want them to make more money, double ticket prices. Oooops, less people flying. I have no sympathy for people who choose to go into a career when they KNOW that it doesn't pay much.

hence my "I think he is nuts" comment.

 

[jesse]

It's something that you need to accept BEFORE you get started.

Don't expect much, this is not exactly the best paying career.

I understand and accept that I will not be making crap for many years. Someday hopefully I'll be living comfortably and I will have a job that I love. Someday.

In the meantime, getting FO at an airline is a stepping stone. The pay is going to suck, but you aren't going to be there forever.

You can live off of 20k. It's not easy, It's takes discipline and sacrifice. I make about 20k, live on my own, and fly quite a bit. It's not easy, But It's what I want to do. I wouldn't even say my life is all that bad on this salary for that matter.

Yeah. I couldn't raise a family on what I make. Problem is. I don't have a family to raise and when I'm in the interview and can survive on less and will take less to get the job. I'm going to get it. It's just the way it is.

 

[ScottM]

how much more do captains make? at the regionals it isn't much more than 60 is it? that's still not enough for a family. don't know what the big boys pay.

I think some of the long time Capts. can get around $80k. There used ot not be a lot of high time senior captains at the regionals but that seems to be changing.

A good resource on airline flying is http://www.willflyforfood.cc it has pay scales for the majors and regionals.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Today I ran into my old flight instructor as we were both home on vacation. He recently started with PSA Airlines and we got to talking about the hiring practices.

1. Those that buy their way in. I don't understand how some airlines have special agreements to hire FO's with less time. Another college friend of mine went to ATP and was hired by Express Jet with 550 TT and 150 ME. The same time period, I submitted my resume when I had 700 TT and 150 ME and I was told I didn't have enough experience. I have heard them hiring with as little as 300 TT. That is insane as far as I am concerned. Plus these pilots haven't (in my opinion) really worked to get there. My buddy's training captain (with PSA) said there is a clear distinction between those pilots who bought there way in and those that have sacrificed everything to be there.

2. The interviews. The PSA FO went on many interviews before landing a job. He said some guys got to the interview and were sent home because they didn't have enough time. If they didn't meet the requirements, why did they get the interview? He also mentioned how guys were eliminated because of their written exam, oral or sim at the end of the day instead of after they failed one area.

3. The starting salaries. How do they expect anyone to live off of that? Great Lakes starts their FO's at somewhere around $17k. I think the average is about $20k. With a four year education and pilot training, this is what you get? This is poverty. Pretty sure I could make more at McDonalds.

The whole situation amazes me. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

In general, there are a lot of choices one can make in life where there are advantages and disadvantages. When I left the service many moons ago, I was faced with the choice of going to work for the airlines or focusing in another direction. Many of my contemporaries went the airline route: flew freight, deliveries, taught, did anything to fly and made little money for many years. I went into the securities business. Did much better early on. I also went back and finished my undergraduate degree and proceeded on to get an MBA. I was never so in love with flying that it was worth sacrificing family and financial security for. It was an end to a means for me--not an objective. That is, in the military, it added a dimension to the battle field; in civil life, a method of transport. Not an objective in itself.

There are many instances of this. Many folk want to live in Southern California, for instance. Will take lower relative pay and deal with higher housing costs to be there. Nothing wrong with that: it's a choice one makes as to how they wish to live and focus their life.

So, if you do focus on the airline objective, there will always be a lot of folks that will make a lot of sacrifices to do that. Airlines are trying to lower labor costs--there's even talk of remotely piloted aircraft. It is difficult to differentiate pay by ability; therefore, there's some sort of seniority system.

In my business, there is competition, but there are places I have a competitive nitch. I get paid directly for what I produce. While many people may want to do it, it takes capital, a broad background of understanding in a lot of disciplines. There will always be a place of someone doing what I do.

You have to weigh all of this and decide where you fit. Nothing wrong with a younger person beginning in one area and changing later. Life is all one big learning experience. In my opinion, one of the greatest challenges in life is to find out where one fits! Sounds like you're trying on some things for size on you life long career path

 

[ggroves]

Personally, I'm glad I followed the "desk job" route. Not everyone feels chained to their desks. There are challenging, rewarding "desk jobs". My desk job has allowed me to afford to fly, without selling my future to the devil.

I have a friend who flies for Delta. He's a 737 F/O. He's my age (41), did the Embry Riddle route, racked up $100K worth of training, and has watched his career take a continous down slide. He currently commutes to La Guardia from Northern Virginia to sit reserve for 6 days at a time in a crash pad. This after multiple furloughs and multiple pay cuts.

I talked to him a month ago. He said he is getting out...he has no choice. His wife is an accountant and that has been their saving grace, however they have delayed building a house, etc. His pension has been slashed. I haven't talked to him after yesterday's announcement of the additional 14% paycut, but I'm guessing this will be his last straw.

Ed is right...the industry is going to follow cheap labor...and why not? That's the beauty of Capitalism, right?

There will always be a long line of bright eyed dreamers, with fists full of their parents money (or Sallie Mae's), who will fly for next to nothing, live like refugees, eat Ramen, and sacrafice everything to fly that jet. Pilot pay has been reduced to the level of a McDonald's shift manager...with less job security.

Check out www.flightinfo.com and read some of the posts. Pretty interesting stuff.

Good Luck!

Greg

 

[mpartovi]

wow...this post has really got my attention. I was on this very route...going to Embry-riddle out of high school to go big time with the airlines. My dream had and will always be to fly the "big" jets. That wont ever die.

Of course after a year and a half of going to school down there, meeting people who were turned away from the regionals and even those who made it; and hearing stories of how it was, I finally realized flying for money was not my route. (of course it took a family emergency and losing just about everything i had to realize it).

You get to a point where you think you can acomplish your goals and dreams, and they're right there in front of you..and you wont let anything stop you from succeeding. I have friends now who are fresh out of ERAU with over 100K in debt and working (if they're lucky) as CFI's. Others have just moved on to work just to pay off their loans.

In the end...I looked at it like this: I started flying because it was fun...i dont ever want to be in a plane and dread the fact that im flying...so I'm gonna keep flying for fun.

Good luck to all those goin for the "big jets."

 

[EdFred]

In the end...I looked at it like this: I started flying because it was fun...i dont ever want to be in a plane and dread the fact that im flying...so I'm gonna keep flying for fun.

And that is exactly what I decided 2 years ago.

 

[TDKendall]

Hence the reason I've never really wanted the "big jets". I'm on the verge of getting exactly what I want....a business in the aviation industry that will allow me to fly quite often (never as much as I want, unfortunately) yet still provide for the family. I'll never have the dump trucks full of cash, but to me that's a nasty form of slavery (always babysitting the money and worrying about what it's doing and where it's being held) and not what I want out of life. Give me an airplane...anything from an 310 to a 152...to fly from time to time and I'm good.

 

[Dean]

Actually, based on www.airlinepilotcentral.com, Lakes FO's start at $13,500 for first year pay, Gross. CommuteAir up in NY starts slightly about $12,000. Most are on food stamps.

And I thought law enforcement was bad!

 

[Doug R]

The whole situation amazes me. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

You have just entered the world of part 121 anti logic. In this world eager flyers gladly accept poverty wages, fly for free or worse yet pay for time just to acquire the title of "I'maairlinepilot". This world of part 121 anti logic is driven by a cycle of promised fast upgrades and the lure of flying the BIG jet. But, as with all in the world of anti logic the doom of reality raises its ugly head as the eager aviator has given five years of F.O. service/senority with no upgrade in sight. Hence the bitterness begins in the world of part 121 anti logic as our aviators career and finacial well being has began a five turn spin. But, don't worry because a spawn of new eager aviators will be reaching for that brass airline ring, only to find out its made of coat hanger and bailing wire.

Heck I don't know why the pay is so low and why pilots accept it. I think its pathetic. Whats the fix .....who knows.

 

[woodstock]

regulation again? who knows.

just read that Independence is likely going to go belly up January 7 unless a miracle occurs before then. the employers got the letter Tuesday. mysteriously they are still taking reservations through April. maybe they all know something.

Merry Xmas.

it's a shame all the way around - I like Flyi personally b/c they are right up the street and go many of the places I visit, nonstop and cheap. a lot of people like them. but they can't keep up the low prices I guess.

 

[wsuffa]

regulation again? who knows.

OK, I admit I'm a free-market person.

Regulation is really not the answer, and I doubt it's politically practical (especially as it relates to labor costs). *If* major safety problems raise their ugly head, then I'd expect to see more regulation. But not over costs.

The public, in general, loves the low cost of airline flights. Businesses love the low cost of airline flights. Any action by the government that pushes costs up will be opposed by business and the public. Less regulation allows the airlines to run more efficiently at lower cost. Raise the costs too high and 1) business will find alternatives such as fractionals, and 2) the public will hop back in their cars as opposed to flying. The cost and service factors have already pushed businesses to alternatives... making the situation worse for the airlines because that siphons off the higher-fare passengers.

Frankly, a lot of this has been brought on by the airlines (for poor service and punitive fare structures), by TSA for hassles at the airport, and by the unions themselves for various high-cost contracts. One way the airlines avoided the contract cost issues was keeping the mandatory retirement age in the law. ANd then there is the eternel willingness of pilots to fly for low wages.

My opinion, and only my opinion, is that regulation would be counterproductive, although a lot of folks would love to see it happen....

 

[ggroves]

I don't have a family to raise and when I'm in the interview and can survive on less and will take less to get the job. I'm going to get it. It's just the way it is.

You're going to be a real popular guy with current pilots who have families and are watching their jobs and pay vanish. Most of them are dropping the blame on guys like you, who will whore out the industry at any price, to be able to fly. Ask some of the new F/Os for Mesa, Go Jets, etc. about how they are treated as bottom feeders.

Good Luck!

Greg

 

[jesse]

You're going to be a real popular guy with current pilots who have families and are watching their jobs and pay vanish. Most of them are dropping the blame on guys like you, who will whore out the industry at any price, to be able to fly. Ask some of the new F/Os for Mesa, Go Jets, etc. about how they are treated as bottom feeders.

Good Luck!

Greg

The world just isn't fair.

It's the way the market works. There is a large supply of pilots, and not much of a demand. All of these pilots want to fly and need jobs. The employers know this. They are going to take advantage of it.

You can do one of two things. Don't fly. Or do it for less then you should.

I'm not really planning on going the airline route at this time though, I want something different out of aviation..something that could be successful. We'll see how this plays out.

 

[Eamon]

I think of lot of pilots starting out have accepted the 12K a year job thinking that they were heading for the $250K a year job. Chasing a dream with your eyes on the carrot makes sense to me.

Now the top year pay (10 yr Capt) is $140-180K at Cargo, $130K at Southwest, $105K at jetBlue, Commuters around $65-70K.

I think the trend of people working for $17 is going to end. I can see working for nothing for a few years, but the pay keeps getting cut & everyone see there is no longer any security & no guarantee of a pension

As a side note. I am in my first yr of my first real job at a small cargo outfit. They hire 20 guys a year because of people moving up. I make $57 an hr. No too bad

Eamon

 

[jrdodge]

The world just isn't fair.

It's the way the market works. There is a large supply of pilots, and not much of a demand. All of these pilots want to fly and need jobs. The employers know this. They are going to take advantage of it.

You can do one of two things. Don't fly. Or do it for less then you should.

I'm not really planning on going the airline route at this time though, I want something different out of aviation..something that could be successful. We'll see how this plays out.

By not doing anything about the situation or speaking out against it, you are supporting it. Jesse, when you are older and are in the shoes that others are in now, you will feel differently about it. Wait until you have shelled out the dough to get all of your ratings and a four year education. Then have flight instructed for less than minimum wage. We will see if you are willing or excited about taking a job for less than a high school dropout makes.

PS- I'll take door number 3, get paid what I am worth to do what I love.

 

[woodstock]

PS- I'll take door number 3, get paid what I am worth to do what I love.

or just pick a nice career you can live with (maybe not love, but something that you are happy enough with) make the big bucks, retire semi early (mid late 40s) and then fly the planes. or use the big bucks to do all the fun stuff and don't retire. own the plane and fly on wkds or whenever you want.

I tell John he's got a 100K a year job with an 82K hobby.

 

[jdwatson]

It's sad. [drivel deleted]

 

[n20junkie]

i love flying, thats why i'm going back to the army to do it, not a 250 k a year job, but it pays the bills

 

[Ed Guthrie]

You're going to be a real popular guy with current pilots who have families and are watching their jobs and pay vanish. Most of them are dropping the blame on guys like you, who will whore out the industry at any price, to be able to fly. Ask some of the new F/Os for Mesa, Go Jets, etc. about how they are treated as bottom feeders.

The airline, of course, does not ripple those market force wages up the seniority scale. IOW, the people slinging the barbs are working at equally "whore out" wages. Why don't those folks demand more salary or refuse to work, too? Isn't that the advice they give the first year FO?

What a bunch of BS artists.

I tell John he's got a 100K a year job with an 82K hobby.

When you do the math that way (I did exactly that in 1991), you quickly realize you could take the foresaken salary difference and rent many hours in some mighty fine aircraft.

 

[Bill]

When you do the math that way (I did exactly that in 1991), you quickly realize you could take the foresaken salary difference and rent many hours in some mighty fine aircraft.

Three Xmas's ago, I was put out of work suddenly, without any warning.(VC's pulled the money on us)

As I had just started PP training, and had always dreamed of flying jets, I thought, hey, now is the time. So I called some nice young fellow at the ER Cap't program advertised in the mags.

I quickly learned that I'd incur $60k-$100k in debt to bag a $15k-$18k/yr right seat job. So I asked, "How long would it take to be making X dollars/yr?" Answer: "Oh, about 10 years, maybe." "Thank you, I think I've heard enough" *click*

The lost income potential was just horrendous, so I found another job in my industry and use the extra $$$'s to fund fun flying, allow my wife to do more home improvement projects, go on vacation, drive a fun car, etc...

Not as glamorous as globetrotting in jets, but at my stage of life, it would be very hard to go back to bare bones.

 

[Doug R]

I guess I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth on this subject regarding 121 airlines. I can understand a 1st and 2nd year F.O. not making much of a salary until they gain the time and knowledge, but after that the pay scale should go up dramatically. Unfortunately it does not keep pace with the exp/skill level of the pilot. Sad state of affairs for the airline industry indeed. It's a bad drug and there are way to many new pilots willing to do ANYTHING to get that first real airline job. Once they have obtained the goal its only a matter of time when reality smacks them aside the head and they relize what a they have done.

I have been lucky in regards to my career and have flown part 91 Corp from day one. I'm paid a competitve wage (much better than the regional airlines) and have a good scheduale. Lucky indeed. I would have to think long and hard before I flew for a 121 regional carrier. I guess I would go back to the old corp job gig I had before flying ...hopefully I will never have to make that decision.

 

[SF3aviatrix]

You're going to be a real popular guy with current pilots who have families and are watching their jobs and pay vanish. Most of them are dropping the blame on guys like you, who will whore out the industry at any price, to be able to fly. Ask some of the new F/Os for Mesa, Go Jets, etc. about how they are treated as bottom feeders....

I know two GoJet pilots. I do not think they made the right choice but they are OK with it and tell me they have felt no industry discrimination or hatred (yet). A friends, I hope it works out OK for them. As pilots, they are helping to drag the industry into the toilet by accepting a job there and validating what Kunas did. Same goes for Mesa PFTers. I have another pal who is a Mesa 350TT jet wonder (still high on their Kool-Aid and "finally a real airline pilot!"). Again, as a friend I wish them success but as a pilot I totally disagree with their buy a career approach as it drags down the rest of the industry when CEOs see how easily they can get away with paying their pilots crap when PFT pilots will pay any cost to get a job.

I have a friend who flies for Delta. He's a 737 F/O. He's my age (41), did the Embry Riddle route, racked up $100K worth of training, and has watched his career take a continous down slide.

That is exactly why in this day & age I connot fathom why people still sign on for ERAU and loans like that. Unless one is getting substantial scholarship to attend, it just isn't worth it IMO to go to ERAU to 'become an airline pilot'. Loans like that on this kind of income just aren't smart.

I think of lot of pilots starting out have accepted the 12K a year job thinking that they were heading for the $250K a year job. Chasing a dream with your eyes on the carrot makes sense to me.

Now the top year pay (10 yr Capt) is $140-180K at Cargo, $130K at Southwest, $105K at jetBlue, Commuters around $65-70K.

There have been concessions, but from what I know it a little bit better than that. One of my best friends at SWA had 23 years with the company when he decided to get out early and was taking home $160K and with profit sharing, 401K $1 for $1 match & options he was clearing $200K. (SWA gross top out flight pay alone @ 85hrs/mo is $194K.) Top out pay for CRJ captains where I work is about $100K and turboprop top out is $84K.

...so I called some nice young fellow at the ER Cap't program advertised in the mags.
I quickly learned that I'd incur $60k-$100k in debt to bag a $15k-$18k/yr right seat job. So I asked, "How long would it take to be making X dollars/yr?" Answer: "Oh, about 10 years, maybe." "Thank you, I think I've heard enough" *click*....

Wow...that must have been the only thing the CAPT program people were telling the truth about. CAPT is CRAP.

 

[woodstock]

what are Mesa, GoJet and PFT? Mesa Airlines I thought was in Arizona - are we talking about the same thing?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

what are Mesa, GoJet and PFT? Mesa Airlines I thought was in Arizona - are we talking about the same thing?

Same Mesa.

PFT stands for Pay For Training. If you don't already know, it is where some sleezeball operator preys on desperate pilot wannabe's most fervent desire to become an airline pilot and charges him tens of thousands of dollars to train him for a position that may or may not be there when he graduates. (Of course, that is just my opinion.) Mesa does (did?) that. Charges outrageous fees and then offers jobs at pay rates that qualify for food stamps.

Go Jet is a "wholely ownded" subsideary of Trans States Airlines. That is a regional airline that serves United, among others. Based in St. Louis. Why would a regional airline want to own another regional airline? Because Go Jet is a "lower cost" regional airline. Trans States is using Go Jet to try to force lower employee costs on Trans states Workers. It is a tactic that management likes to use to force lower pay scales on already abysmally low pay rates. And management rakes in obscene bonuses when they pull that crap off.

 

[Richard]

Same Mesa.

PFT stands for Pay For Training. If you don't already know, it is where some sleezeball operator preys on desperate pilot wannabe's most fervent desire to become an airline pilot and charges him tens of thousands of dollars to train him for a position that may or may not be there when he graduates. (Of course, that is just my opinion.) Mesa does (did?) that. Charges outrageous fees and then offers jobs at pay rates that qualify for food stamps.

Go Jet is a "wholely ownded" subsideary of Trans States Airlines. That is a regional airline that serves United, among others. Based in St. Louis. Why would a regional airline want to own another regional airline? Because Go Jet is a "lower cost" regional airline. Trans States is using Go Jet to try to force lower employee costs on Trans states Workers. It is a tactic that management likes to use to force lower pay scales on already abysmally low pay rates. And management rakes in obscene bonuses when they pull that crap off.

Without getting into the whole PFT thing, would it make any difference to you if mgmt was not raking in obscene bonuses?

 

[SF3aviatrix]

Mesa does (did?) that. Charges outrageous fees and then offers jobs at pay rates that qualify for food stamps......

http://[SIZE=-1]www.flightcareers.com[/SIZE]

Go Jet is a "[wholly owned]" [subsidiary] of Trans States Airlines....Why would a regional airline want to own another regional airline? Because Go Jet is a "lower cost" regional airline. Trans States is using Go Jet to try to force lower employee costs on Trans states Workers.

Actually, GoJet & Trans States Airlines are both wholly owned subsidiaries of Trans States Holdings, LLC. While pay is an issue, the bigger one with GoJet is "scope" and collective bargaining agreement violations. A scope contract is a negotiated and contractually binding agreement that defines the rules for the outsourcing of flying between a mainline and regional carrier.

TSA Holdings, LLC wanted to get bigger RJs and expand their regional flying. To do so they formed GoJets to get around an American Airlines/Allied Pilots Association scope clause that had a limitation on the numbers of seats TSAs RJs may have. As an American Connection carrier, TSA is not allowed to have a/c with more than 70 seats on their certificate as that is 'taking away mainline (read AA) pilots jobs'. For every day an American Connection carrier flies RJs that exceeded the seat limitation (regardless of whether they were flown as AA Connection flight), they are subject to a $30,000 fine per day by the APA for violation of their scope clause. The TSA Holdings anwser to this was create a new airline that was not subject to AAs scope so they can fly bigger RJs. The problem with that is any a/c being flown for Trans States Holdings, LLC is to be flown by pilots on the Trans States Airlines pilot seniority list per their collective bargaining agreement. So by creating GoJet, TSA Holdings got out from under AAs scope and the related fines but totally screwed their own in house carrier and violated their contract to boot. That is why many people see GoJet pilots as 'scabs' even though they have never crossed a picket line.

Mesa tried to do something similar by forming non-union "Freedom Air" not too long ago. After much scuttlebutt, it ended up Mesa was forced to fold the Freedom pilots into the Mesa pilot list. However even today there are pilots who still see Freedom pilots as 'scabs'.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Without getting into the whole PFT thing, would it make any difference to you if mgmt was not raking in obscene bonuses?

What's your point?

 

[Richard]

What's your point?

It boils down to the age old question, should top mgmt earn a sum equal to the employees? That is, how do you best determine an equitable employee wage? What should it be based upon? Seniority, skill, job description, duties, responsibility? And would that basis be equally valid for all positions all the time?

The issue at hand is, does what mgmt take cause a deficiency in employee compensation? Remember, in a large corp, there are literally hundreds of employees for each upper mgmt position.

This is danger close to getting into the whole shebang which I wanted to avoid so I'll just lay out now--I am all for a better wage for flight crew (especially for new hires) but I am also against the stupid unions and I do have a perspective of mgmt which allows me to at least understand a bit of their point of view, although I am very much against profit taking (or should I say, raiding). Basically, I'm all over the board on this subject because I don't adhere to any one subset of perspectives. But I tire so easily of the ancient Employee Vs Mgmt schism.

It's like Cain and Abel and probably just as old yet I do not think this adversarial relationship will solve anything. It hasn't yet. Suffice to say that while there are many indications (gotten from what you have written, including previous posts) that I agree with you I am fairly certain the bonuses are not the true cause of the employee's low wage structure.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

In a perfect world, there would be no need for unions. Management and labor alike would negotiate in good faith and an agreement would be made that would be acceptable to all parties

We do not live in a perfect world. We live in a world full of selfishness and greed. Management wants labor to work 24/7 for free and labor wants to not have to go to work at all and get paid a million a year for their non effort.

I personally am not a huge fan of unions. I think they have taken too much power in the past. That may be still true of some unions. But as a member of the Air Lline Pilots Association, and being in the airline industry, I can tell you that ALPA operates a bit differently than most labor unions. I can also tell you that without the union, the airline industry would not be worth working in.

It boils down to the age old question, should top mgmt earn a sum equal to the employees? That is, how do you best determine an equitable employee wage? What should it be based upon? Seniority, skill, job description, duties, responsibility? And would that basis be equally valid for all positions all the time?

The issue at hand is, does what mgmt take cause a deficiency in employee compensation? Remember, in a large corp, there are literally hundreds of employees for each upper mgmt position.

Well, I have to disagree here a bit, Richard. That is not the issue I was addressing. Management is management. Labor is labor. Management is worth what the board of directors thing they are worth. Labor is worth what they can negotiate.

My beef is with management taking huge bonuses when they are at the helm of a company that is driven into bankruptcy. My beef is with managements that start up alter ego type operations with the sole purpose of breaking unions and then taking huge bonuses for doing so.

I am all for a better wage for flight crew (especially for new hires) but I am also against the stupid unions

And just how is that going to happen without the unions? Management damn well isn't going to give it to them on their own volition. Quite the contrary. They are trying to take as much away as possible.

And I do have a perspective of mgmt which allows me to at least understand a bit of their point of view, although I am very much against profit taking (or should I say, raiding).

Me too, on both counts. As long as management is manageing and not making a career goal to break a union.

Basically, I'm all over the board on this subject because I don't adhere to any one subset of perspectives. But I tire so easily of the ancient Employee Vs Mgmt schism.

Really? How do you propose to change that?

I am fairly certain the bonuses are not the true cause of the employee's low wage structure.

I never said that. What I am tired of is management getting huge bonuses when their management has put a company in bankruptcy. I am tired of management getting huge bonuses when their only accomplishment is to force labor to work for less. I am tired of both sides not negotiating in good faith.