Aircraft unresponsive and heading out to sea

Henning said:
No, do not disconnect A/P, like Ted said, set the altitude for for a breathable level and let the AP handle the descent, that way if you go unconscious the plane will level out at a good altitude for you to recover. No A/P would likely end up in a high speed spiral that you most likely wouldn't be able to recover.
Click to expand...

How quickly would the AP get you down to 10K? Would it descend around 500 FPM? That would be close to 25 minutes to get you down from 24K.

I am not saying to disengage the AP. You make a good point about having it on while you recover. I am just wondering what the effects of being hypoxic for 25 minutes would have on the brain.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Please explain how telling someone hundreds of miles away what you need does anything to execute what you need. FYI, air traffic control does not have a joystick to remote control your plane.
Click to expand...

Because apparently he was not proactive enough to take the action on his own, without "permission".
 
The pilot has many more hours than me, so I wouldn't dare say what he did wrong...

But if I suspected a cabin leak, down we go. Right now.

ATC can wait. See and avoid.
 
Tex_Mike said:
How quickly would the AP get you down to 10K? Would it descend around 500 FPM? That would be close to 25 minutes to get you down from 24K.

I am not saying to disengage the AP. You make a good point about having it on while you recover. I am just wondering what the effects of being hypoxic for 25 minutes would have on the brain.
Click to expand...

APs will descend at the assigned rate. That one I'm sure could easily do 3000+ fpm down.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
APs will descend at the assigned rate. That one I'm sure could easily do 3000+ fpm down.
Click to expand...

Yes for sure. There will be an emergency descent procedure that he would have had to practice every year as part of recurrent training.
 
Tex_Mike said:
How quickly would the AP get you down to 10K? Would it descend around 500 FPM? That would be close to 25 minutes to get you down from 24K.

I am not saying to disengage the AP. You make a good point about having it on while you recover. I am just wondering what the effects of being hypoxic for 25 minutes would have on the brain.
Click to expand...

A lot less than impact with the terrain or remaining at altitude.
 
First off why didn't he go onto o2 the second he noticed an issue?
Didn't sound like he was transmitting with a mask on.

After he was on o2 the next thing I would have done was TOLD ATC I was declaring an emergincy and I AM decending to 10,000.


Remember the C in PIC stands for COMMAND.

RIP

Tex_Mike said:
How quickly would the AP get you down to 10K? Would it descend around 500 FPM? That would be close to 25 minutes to get you down from 24K.

I am not saying to disengage the AP. You make a good point about having it on while you recover. I am just wondering what the effects of being hypoxic for 25 minutes would have on the brain.
Click to expand...


Whatever you set it for, if it were me and I was solo, or my other pax was also on o2, I'd go on o2 and set 1500fpm

I bet if he needed he could have dumped his gear, IAS decent for VLE, pulled the power to FI and done a mile a minute down or better.
 
Last edited:
James331 said:
First off why didn't he go onto o2 the second he noticed an issue?

After he was on o2 the next thing I would have done was TOLD ATC I was declaring an emergincy and I AM decending to 10,000.


Remember the C in PIC stands for COMMAND.

RIP
Click to expand...


Pure speculation of course...

He may have gone onto oxygen. Perhaps it wasn't working properly. Perhaps he didn't activate it correctly. I don't know how much time the TBM900 emergency oxygen gives you but it is probably 15 minutes or better. One scenario is he thought he was good and had time to deal with ATC but became hypoxic without realizing it.
 
James331 said:
First off why didn't he go onto o2 the second he noticed an issue?

After he was on o2 the next thing I would have done was TOLD ATC I was declaring an emergincy and I AM decending to 10,000.


Remember the C in PIC stands for COMMAND.

RIP
Click to expand...

Sadly I think we're all thinking the same thing. That's the million dollar question. Given how obvious it seems, the best way to move forward is to understand what circumstances caused him to not do it. Are we training pilots to be too dependent on ATC? Or are the effects of hypoxia simply so strong that it defeats our brain's decision-making abilities, and a "deadman's switch" like in the Cirrus should become standard in high-altitude certified planes?
 
Lord Muck said:
Pure speculation of course...

He may have gone onto oxygen. Perhaps it wasn't working properly. Perhaps he didn't activate it correctly. I don't know how much time the TBM900 emergency oxygen gives you but it is probably 15 minutes or better. One scenario is he thought he was good and had time to deal with ATC but became hypoxic without realizing it.
Click to expand...

Well him waiting on ATC ain't speculation.

And as I said it didn't sound like he was transmitting through a mask, you get that fighter pilot/darth vader voice going on when your talking in the mask.

dukeblue219 said:
Or are the effects of hypoxia simply so strong that it defeats our brain's decision-making abilities, and a "deadman's switch" like in the Cirrus should become standard in high-altitude certified planes?
Click to expand...


You don't need a dead mans switch, just follow the procedures in your AFM and keep on top of things.
 
A TBM buddy just told me that the pressurization controlled in the -900 is "Garmin based" (??) versus the prior controller which was not
 
James331 said:
And as I said it didn't sound like he was transmitting through a mask, you get that fighter pilot/darth vader voice going on when your talking in the mask.
Click to expand...

It's an emergency mask probably have to push aside when talking through your headset/mic. Doesn't mean he didn't have a mask on.
 
B350ATP said:
A TBM buddy just told me that the pressurization controlled in the -900 is "Garmin based" (??) versus the prior controller which was not
Click to expand...

So possibly wasn't set correctly? There should still be a cabin altitude warning though.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Sadly I think we're all thinking the same thing. That's the million dollar question. Given how obvious it seems, the best way to move forward is to understand what circumstances caused him to not do it. Are we training pilots to be too dependent on ATC? Or are the effects of hypoxia simply so strong that it defeats our brain's decision-making abilities, and a "deadman's switch" like in the Cirrus should become standard in high-altitude certified planes?
Click to expand...

The effects of hypoxia are hard to over estimate. I was flying along right seat in a T-310R with a owner pilot that had a lot of time in it as well as regular recurrent training with flight safety, we were at FL190 on cannulas (sparing on O2 for the night part of the trip) just cruising along and the right engine dies. We went through the whole cage the engine, declare, head for nearest.... About 13,000' I reached down and switched to the main tank. Engine restarted on first try, on we went. That was a very good lesson on hypoxia, both of us know the system well, but neither of us thought to swap fuel tanks, and he even missed reading it on the check list. Hypoxia is a very dangerous thing because you don't feel bad, on autopilot you hardly notice it.
 
Speculation, of course, but...

...I'd be willing to bet if the pilot had been reading this thread, but about someone else, he would have been saying much the same thing as the majority here.

He almost certainly KNEW what to do, and that doing what needed to be done under emergency authority took precedence over anything ATC might or might not say.

I will assume for now that his cognitive abilities went downhill very quickly from whatever the malfunction was. Confusion is one effect of hypoxia.

To be confused and end up making a bad judgment from lack of oxygen should not be a reflection on this pilot's judgment and skills overall.

That's just my take.
 
FastEddieB said:
Speculation, of course, but...

...I'd be willing to bet if the pilot had been reading this thread, but about someone else, he would have been saying much the same thing as the majority here.

He almost certainly KNEW what to do, and that doing what needed to be done under emergency authority took precedence over anything ATC might or might not say.

I will assume for now that his cognitive abilities went downhill very quickly from whatever the malfunction was. Confusion is one effect of hypoxia.

To be confused and end up making a bad judgment from lack of oxygen should not be a reflection on this pilot's judgment and skills overall.

That's just my take.
Click to expand...

Very well said.
 
Lord Muck said:
It's an emergency mask probably have to push aside when talking through your headset/mic. Doesn't mean he didn't have a mask on.
Click to expand...


I've never flown a TBM, but in all the pressurized airplanes I have flown, the mask is wired with a mike. All the pressurization/smoke in the cockpit emergency checklists start with. "Mask On", "Switch to Emergency Mike". And then continue on to deal with the condition.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Better to let the AP do the descent. Then if you pass out, altitude preselect will kick in.



If you don't have altitude preselect (say in the 310 I fly), still better - the AP will at least keep the wings level.
Click to expand...


But wouldn't the AP take its sweet time, say 600fpm, as oppose to pulling power and descending at rapid rate, don't know how fast a TBM can descend?
At 600fpm would you be dead before getting to a lower altitude?
 
Henning said:
No, do not disconnect A/P, like Ted said, set the altitude for for a breathable level and let the AP handle the descent, that way if you go unconscious the plane will level out at a good altitude for you to recover. No A/P would likely end up in a high speed spiral that you most likely wouldn't be able to recover.
Click to expand...

Jet emergency descents are not done on autopilot.
 
teejayevans said:
But wouldn't the AP take its sweet time, say 600fpm, as oppose to pulling power and descending at rapid rate, don't know how fast a TBM can descend?
At 600fpm would you be dead before getting to a lower altitude?
Click to expand...

On the G1000, which the TBM 900 has, you can set your rate of descent to anything you want. I've set mine as high as 2000fpm. You just need to make sure you don't overspeed the aircraft.
 
Lord Muck said:
It's an emergency mask probably have to push aside when talking through your headset/mic. Doesn't mean he didn't have a mask on.
Click to expand...

Most masks I've seen have a transmitter inside of them, pull headset off, put the mask on, put your headset on over it, transmit through mask
 
colojo said:
On the G1000, which the TBM 900 has, you can set your rate of descent to anything you want. I've set mine as high as 2000fpm. You just need to make sure you don't overspeed the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Yes or you can use FLC and dial in the speed you want to descend at (although I wouldn't do that). Best to set it up for a high descent rate using the emergency descent procedure (speed brakes, gear down, or whatever it is for the TBM900). And reduce power of course.
 
Not a TBM, but probably a ver similar procedure

CABIN PRESSURIZATION FAILURE

Indication: PRESS warning and voice callout “Warning, Cabin
pressure”

1. Pressure Indication: Check
A. If CAB P > 5.75 PSI:

1. Cabin Altitude Selector Check correct setting
2. Manual control valve Operate to reduce pressure
differential to required level

If unsuccessful:
3. ECS switch OFF
4. ECS EMERG shut off Pull
5. Oxygen masks ON

Procedure to put on the crew oxygen masks:
a. Remove the normal headset.
b. Put the oxygen mask on.
c. Put the normal headset back on.

Disconnect the normal headset boom microphone
connector from the MIC connector on the sidewall.

Connect the oxygen mask microphone connector to the
MIC connector on the sidewall.

Set MASK/MIC switch on the sidewall to MASK.
6. PASSENGER OXYGEN valve AUTO/ON
7. Passengers INSTRUCT to don masks
8. Emergency descent
Click to expand...
 
From the POH

Front seats
1 - Take amask on the opposite seat side (pilot : R.H. side ; R.H. Front passenger : L.H. side) : draw it out of the
stowage cup and uncoil tube totally. Press on the red side vanes to inflate the harness. Put the mask on the
face.
2 - No smokes :
3-position selector . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NORMAL
(100 % as required)
3 - In case of smokes :
3-position selector . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . EMERGENCY
Don the smoke goggles onto the face
4 - ”PASSENGERS OXYGEN” switch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ON
5 - Check the oxygen flow indicator for the front seats (the blinker is transparent) and for the rear passengers
(the blinker is green).
6 - ”MICRO/MASK” micro inverter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MASK
7 - Perform an emergency descent to the ”En route” minimum altitude and, if possible, below 10000 ft.
 
Tex_Mike said:
How quickly would the AP get you down to 10K? Would it descend around 500 FPM? That would be close to 25 minutes to get you down from 24K.

I am not saying to disengage the AP. You make a good point about having it on while you recover. I am just wondering what the effects of being hypoxic for 25 minutes would have on the brain.
Click to expand...

Even standard commercial flights do 2000 fpm descents for normal procedures. Emergencies can be faster. Don't know what th emergency rate is, tho.
 
From the POH:

Very easy to set up this emergency descent with the GFC700. Throttle goes to IDLE then use FLC to select the descent at 266 IAS if smooth or 178 IAS if rough according to this.



EMERGENCY DESCENTS
MAXIMUM RATE DESCENT
FLY THE AIRPLANE
1 - Throttle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Flight IDLE
2 - OXYGEN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . USE if necessary
3 - DESCENT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . attitude . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . from – 10° to – 20°
Procedure in smooth air :
4 - Flaps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UP
5 - Landing gear control . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UP
6 - Speed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . VMO = 266 KIAS
Procedure in rough air or in case of structure problem :
7 - Reduce speed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . IAS ≤ 178 KIAS
8 - Landing gear control . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DN
9 - Flaps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . UP
10 - Maintain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . IAS ≤ 178 KIAS
 
I did the altitude chamber at Shaw AFB in Sumter, South Carolina. Well worth it.
 
I can set my Exp AP to descend at 2000 fpm to 10K. It won't let me go over Vne. If I don't wake up and run out of fuel, it will slow to my minimum airspeed setting(also max glide) which is 80 kias and about 600-700 fpm descent. Probably still not survivable, but hoping I would wake up before a tank runs dry since I always have 30 minutes min in each tank.
 
kgruber said:
Jet emergency descents are not done on autopilot.
Click to expand...

Boeing and Airbus they can be used, discretion of the pilot.

PROCEDURES
ABNORMAL AND EMERGENCY PROCEDURES
MISCELLANEOUS
A318/A319/A320/A321 FLEET PRO-ABN-80 P 15/30
FCOM G → 27 NOV 13
EMER DESCENT
Ident.: PRO-ABN-80-00012092.0001001 / 04 MAY 12
Applicable to: ALL
IMMEDIATE ACTIONS
CREW OXY MASKS...................................................................................................................ON
EMER DESCENT................................................................................................ ANNOUNCE(PA )
The flight crew should inform the cabin of emergency descent on the PA system.
SIGNS..........................................................................................................................................ON
EMER DESCENT...............................................................................................................INITIATE
Descend with the autopilot engaged:
‐ Turn the ALT selector knob and pull.
‐ Turn the HDG selector knob and pull.
‐ Adjust the target SPD/MACH.
Use of the autopilot is also permitted in EXPEDITE mode 
THR LEVERS (if A/THR not engaged).................................................................................... IDLE
‐ If autothrust is engaged, check that THR IDLE is displayed on the FMA.
‐ If not engaged, retard the thrust levers
SPD BRK................................................................................................................................. FULL
Extension of the speedbrakes will significantly increase Vls.
To avoid autopilot disconnection and automatic retraction of the speedbrakes, due to possible
activation of the angle of attack protection, allow the speed to increase before starting to use the
speedbrakes.
WHEN DESCENT ESTABLISHED
EMER DESCENT FL 100 or minimum allowable altitude
SPEED............................................................................................................MAX/APPROPRIATE
CAUTION Descend at the maximum appropriate speed. If structural damage is suspected,
use the flight controls with care and reduce speed as appropriate.
Landing gear may be extended below 25 000 ft. Speed must be reduced to VLO/VLE
ENG MODE SEL........................................................................................................................IGN
ATC......................................................................................................................................NOTIFY
Notify ATC of the nature of the emergency, and state intention. if not in contact with ATC,
transmit a distress message on one of the following frequencies: (VHF) 121.5 MHz , or (HF)
2 182 kHz , or 8 364 kHz.
ATC XPDR 7700........................................................................................................... CONSIDER
Squawk 7700 unless otherwise specified by ATC.
‐ To save oxygen, set the oxygen diluter selector to the N position.
‐ With the oxygen diluter selector left at 100 % , oxygen quantity may be insufficient to cover the
entire emergency descent profile.
‐ Ensure crew communication is established with oxygen masks. Avoid continuous use of the
interphone to minimize interference from the oxygen mask breathing noise
MAX FL.............................................................................................................................. 100/MEA
 IF CAB ALT > 14000 feet:
PAX OXY MASKS.......................................................................................................MAN ON
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
RV10flyer said:
I can set my Exp AP to descend at 2000 fpm to 10K. It won't let me go over Vne. If I don't wake up and run out of fuel, it will slow to my minimum airspeed setting(also max glide) which is 80 kias and about 600-700 fpm descent. Probably still not survivable, but hoping I would wake up before a tank runs dry since I always have 30 minutes min in each tank.
Click to expand...
So if you are at 30,000', it would take 10 mins to get down to 10,000'. The question is what shape would you be in when you level out?
 
teejayevans said:
So if you are at 30,000', it would take 10 mins to get down to 10,000'. The question is what shape would you be in when you level out?
Click to expand...

That's why you put the oxygen mask on while you descend.
 
They say he requested lower to 18000 feet. Any chance he requested "uh ten thousand" and it was heard as "18 thousand?" Anybody have a transcript or recording?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TriGear28 said:
They say he requested lower to 18000 feet. Any chance he requested "uh ten thousand" and it was heard as "18 thousand?" Anybody have a transcript or recording?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Can't remember what the recording said but ATC lost contact with them at FL200 anyway. He sounded out of it.
 
TriGear28 said:
They say he requested lower to 18000 feet. Any chance he requested "uh ten thousand" and it was heard as "18 thousand?" Anybody have a transcript or recording?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


He did request FL180 but I think he was not in his right mind when he did or he was in denial, probably the later. I listened to the recordings btw.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
What follows is total speculation so take it for what it's worth (not much):

We don't know what happened but the pilot didn't like what he saw and decided he needed to get lower. Perhaps a high cabin altitude warning? For whatever reason he decided to not declare an emergency and did not insist on getting lower when ATC said they were working on it. Was his behavior affected by having his wife with him? Was he reluctant to use the word "emergency" in front of her?

:dunno:

This still doesn't explain why he got hypoxic within four minutes of requesting lower with ATC. If he followed the checklist he would have donned his emergency oxygen mask. When did he get hypoxic? There is a good chance he was hypoxic when he was cleared to FL200 and yet did not do that. He was then asked to go to FL200 twice more and the second time he acknowledged with his call sign but sounded different. That was within four minutes. How could this happen? According to the news articles he had over 5000 hours in TBM's and would have had to do annual recurrent training. I find it difficult to believe he did not know what to do. My guess (again pure speculation not based on any facts) is that the emergency oxygen system may have malfunctioned and he became hypoxic without being aware of what was happening.
 
With all due respect to the victims and their families, I can't believe the attention this story is getting. I was at the gym this afternoon when I first saw it on the TV. "Unresponsive plane has crashed" was the headline. OK, I thought, must be another Air France 447 or at least Payne Stewart kind of thing. No, it's a single-engine plane with three aboard. What? Then it leads the evening news. What is going on here? And why are we feeding into it all? I mean seriously, it's very sad, but WHY is this particular accident commanding so much attention?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top