Aircraft Evaluation & Pre-Buy Inspections

LevelWing

LevelWing

Pre-takeoff checklist
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LevelWing
After listening to all of the advice that was offered to me in my thread regarding operating costs, I started looking around for an aircraft to potentially purchase. If it's within my budget it'll be nothing more than an additional car payment (plus insurance). I happened to find one near me that was worth looking at (Cherokee 180). I was able to sit in the aircraft which has had new interior installed within the last couple of years. The avionics are pretty old (Narco Mark 12D, Nav 122, Nav 120) but they're useable. It's IFR certified (I'd be purchasing it for IFR training). After calling the owner and talking with him I've setup a time to fly the plane and if I like it, he was more than willing to introduce me to his mechanic and do a pre-buy (he said it'd be another annual) and he'd ask the mechanic to walk me through the inspection and show me everything. The engine is around 600 hours.

This seems legit but I have no idea about the valuation of the aircraft. The owner is asking around $45,000 and said he'd accept a reasonable offer but wasn't willing to budge too much since he has put so much into it over the recent years. I'm not 100% set on purchasing this aircraft but at the very least it's a good learning process -- I just don't know what it should be worth so I'm not sure what a proper counter-offer would be. Also, what are some big things I should be looking for during the inspection? I didn't see any rust or corrosion on the exterior when looking at it and didn't notice anything major while sitting in it (though I didn't sit in it that long).
 
What year is this Cherokee 180?

$45,000 sounds high for an aircraft of this type and panel. Is the current owner is not willing to get down to a base price of approximately $35,000 to $37,000, then consider looking elsewhere.

What has the owner put into it over the past years that he puts such a high value on?

It is not advisable to have the existing owner's mechanic do the pre-buy inspection. It is better for you to obtain the services of your own mechanic to do this. The primary benefit of having your own guy do it is to find any oversights or mistakes that the existing mechanic has let happen.
 
I can tell you that if you offer that guy asking price you're doing him a favor. You'd be surprised what you can pick up in this market for 45 stacks of high society. Ask me how I know. (hint: look at avatar).

That airplane is worth 30 cash. Tell you a better one. Go find a post '78 archer and low ball the hell out of it and come out with a decent back seat for passengers, a good 8KTS faster stiff legs over a cherokee 180 on the same HP and better avionics. For the same money. You'll deal with a bunch of delusional emotional sellers with a copy of 2005 VRef printouts in their pocket, but that's just chaff. Keep at it and the true sellers are out there, dying to unload and hungry for that cash. Game is chess, it ain't checkers.
 
AggieMike88 said:
What year is this Cherokee 180?

$45,000 sounds high for an aircraft of this type and panel. Is the current owner is not willing to get down to a base price of approximately $35,000 to $37,000, then consider looking elsewhere.

What has the owner put into it over the past years that he puts such a high value on?
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Apparently the interior is why he's pretty adamant about leaving the price that high.

It is not advisable to have the existing owner's mechanic do the pre-buy inspection. It is better for you to obtain the services of your own mechanic to do this. The primary benefit of having your own guy do it is to find any oversights or mistakes that the existing mechanic has let happen.
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That's a good point and I'll keep this in mind.

hindsight2020 said:
I can tell you that if you offer that guy asking price you're doing him a favor. You'd be surprised what you can pick up in this market for 45 stacks of high society. Ask me how I know. (hint: look at avatar).

That airplane is worth 30 cash. Tell you a better one. Go find a post '78 archer and low ball the hell out of it and come out with a decent back seat for passengers, a good 8KTS faster stiff legs over a cherokee 180 on the same HP and better avionics. For the same money. You'll deal with a bunch of delusional emotional sellers with a copy of 2005 VRef printouts in their pocket, but that's just chaff. Keep at it and the true sellers are out there, dying to unload and hungry for that cash. Game is chess, it ain't checkers.
Click to expand...
I'm definitely in no hurry to purchase one so I don't mind waiting for the right deal to come along. My primary concern is that if I don't find one within a reasonable driving distance that I'll end up having to spend a lot of money on flying somewhere, hotels, rental cars, pre-buy inspections, all possibly multiple times which will add up really quick. I understand getting as much information as possible ahead of time is ideal, but sometimes not all the details are posted since the sellers wants to get rid of it.
 
Toad-kissing is part of the drill. You obviously want to look at the easy ones first, but you can limit unnecessary travel expenses by implementing the following steps:

1. Do the market research necessary to understand the price points in today's market and use that information to determine the price you would be willing to pay for any plane in which you have an interest, assuming that it is "as advertised" when you arrive to inspect it.

2. Once you know your number, discuss price up front. If the seller won't meet (or get very close to) your price point, you're wasting money to go see his plane while thinking you can convince him otherwise when you get there. Drop him and move on to the next deal, but tell him to stay in touch if he changes his mind. It's not unusual to get phone calls after several weeks or months.

3. Obtain detail pictures, copies of logs, blue-ribbon package from FAA and other info to verify condition and history.

3. Execute a purchase contract with the seller and secure it with an escrow deposit. Your first trip to see the plane should be for the visual inspection and eval/test flight as specified in the purchase agreement.

If you do it this way (and along with many others in the business I've been successfully doing it exactly this way for many years) you can avoid wasting a lot of time and money on deals that can never happen. OTOH, if you take the used car buyer's approach that "I gotta go look at some planes in order to find what I like" they will beat you like a rented mule.


LevelWing said:
Apparently the interior is why he's pretty adamant about leaving the price that high.

That's a good point and I'll keep this in mind.

I'm definitely in no hurry to purchase one so I don't mind waiting for the right deal to come along. My primary concern is that if I don't find one within a reasonable driving distance that I'll end up having to spend a lot of money on flying somewhere, hotels, rental cars, pre-buy inspections, all possibly multiple times which will add up really quick. I understand getting as much information as possible ahead of time is ideal, but sometimes not all the details are posted since the sellers wants to get rid of it.
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Interiors on a Cherokee 180 can be replaced for approx $1000

Him "not budging too much because of what he has in it" is a great reason why so many planes are rotting on the ramp. What he put into it isn't the buyers problem.

His mechanic for the prebuy? Not a chance.

The bad thing about the panel is that the radios are still there and it'll be more labor costs to remove them. I'd prefer if someone had already pulled them. They're worthless in the current day market except for some guys trying to keep their NARCO panel alive.

$45,000 seems high for about any model of PA28 180 with the panel you describe unless it's in immaculate condition and a 1970s variant with a good engine.
 
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wabower said:
3. Obtain detail pictures, copies of logs, blue-ribbon package from FAA and other info to verify condition and history.
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Where or from whom do you obtain this "blue ribbon package"?
 
My plane buying advice for amateurs. It's worth every penny you paid for it.

1. Be patient. Be prepared to wait a year or so to find "the one".
2. Tune out anything the seller is saying. Just smile and nod your head. The logbooks are going to tell most of the story you want to know.
3. Watch the internet sites (and eBay) for a few months. Just sit back and watch. See what's selling and what keeps popping back up week after week. It won't take long for your instincts to take notice.
4. Be patient. The pool of planes for sale turns over slowly, but the pool does get refilled.
5. Logbooks. Know how to read them and understand them. Both what's there and what isn't. 10 years worth of stamps saying nothing more than "Inspected IAW blah blah blah" and an ELT battery every other year or so... RUN.
6. 95 to 99% of the planes on the internet are overpriced by delusional sellers with no real clue of the market other than "What they have in it". Just move a long.
7. Oh, you'll probably have a budget number in mind, be prepared to spend 25% or so more. After you look at a few basket cases inside your budget, you'll realize you need to shell out a little more to get a good example.
 
bartmc said:
IIRC the blue ribbon is the "certified" copy and costs a few bucks more. No need for springing the extra $5 or so for the blue ribbon, those $5 bills start adding up :)
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That is defaulted to the "non certified" copy. If you need certified copy, then you must select it.
 
I too am in the market, but probably for a Cirrus. I am willing to pay someone to help me. What's the best way on this site to find someone to advocate for me and bargain? I work way too much and don't have time to do lots of shopping and evaluations. It's worth every penny for me to pay someone.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I too am in the market, but probably for a Cirrus. I am willing to pay someone to help me. What's the best way on this site to find someone to advocate for me and bargain? I work way too much and don't have time to do lots of shopping and evaluations. It's worth every penny for me to pay someone.
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There maybe someone here, but I'd head over to the Cirrus Owners and Pilots Associations site and see if they can recommend someone.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I too am in the market, but probably for a Cirrus. I am willing to pay someone to help me. What's the best way on this site to find someone to advocate for me and bargain? I work way too much and don't have time to do lots of shopping and evaluations. It's worth every penny for me to pay someone.
Click to expand...

If you are willing to work with someone so far away my boss has done a few good Cirrus deals for folks.
 
bartmc said:
Interiors on a Cherokee 180 can be replaced for approx $1000
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Where? I really like to know where. Materials are more than that.

http://www.airtexinteriors.com/catalogue/wall_panels.php

bartmc said:
The bad thing about the panel is that the radios are still there and it'll be more labor costs to remove them. I'd prefer if someone had already pulled them. They're worthless in the current day market except for some guys trying to keep their NARCO panel alive.
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Now that NARCO is no longer in business any radio shop can repair them the 12D with glide slope is worth about $2000 plus the nav head sells for around $1300.

http://www.bennettavionics.com/mk12d-14v-gs.html

I think I've discovered why you have problems with aircraft maintenance shops.
 
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Tom-D said:
Where? I really like to know where. Materials are more than that.

http://www.airtexinteriors.com/catalogue/wall_panels.php



Now that NARCO is no longer in business any radio shop can repair them the 12D with glide slope is worth about $2000 plus the nav head sells for around $1300.

http://www.bennettavionics.com/mk12d-14v-gs.html

I think I've discovered why you have problems with aircraft maintenance shops.
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If you want overpriced crap, go with airtex. Otherwise order some kydex from interstate plastics, some carpet from tnwings.com, foam from Scandia and your fabric from marion aircraft. Mine was $800 bucks all in but I didn't do the headliner. Local Hot Rod restoration shop sewed it all up nice a neat with burn certs and everything with superior materials than those airtex uses.

I'm sure those Narcos are flying off the shelf at bennett, nobody is buying those for a new install. Like I said, worthless except to some guy trying to keep his Narco panel on life support. Some things can be fixed on Narcos, some can't due to the service model Narco implemented (i.e send it back to NARCO) and the way they went out (C-YA!!). The market value on those radios when considering the purchase price of the plane is $0.00, you might sell them for a buck or two on eBay. Probably not worth what it'll cost you to remove them.

Here's what an As Removed 12D and indicator is "worth"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Narco-Mark-...iation_Parts_Gear&hash=item46107e26d6&vxp=mtr

now subtract out your avionics guy's bill for removing and cleaning up the wires, eBay fees and your time dealing with selling and shipping it and you'll see where the value is headed.
 
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Hi LevelWing. There are people around who act as buyer's agents. If you get a good one (and there are some), it would be well worth the fee. There is even a really old guy here that I have heard good things about :). Based strictly on your original post and the fact that there are a lot of shysters out there (especially dealing with airplanes), I think you would be well advised to think about this. The Cherokee you looked at sounds high to me, too, by the way.
 
N801BH said:
I know of a REAL nice Pathfinder for sale.......:D;)
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Last I heard the owner had lowered his price from "Way way too much" to "Way too much," but has not yet hit "Reasonable."
 
Here is an Archer on eBay with 170 hours on the engine.

Actually has 7 bids, currently at $31k. Keep an eye on it, and you might see what current market value is for Archers.

1976 Archer

Factory shoulder harnesses
Dual toe brakes
Vertically adjustable pilots seat w/nitrogen cylinder lift
Sporty's sheep skin front seat covers
Head rests
Factory Piper super soundproofing package
Heavy glass, 1/4" windscreen and 1/8" side glass
Digital OAT gauge
External factory 12V APU plug
Aero Craft pilot side hinged vent for air while taxiing
Static wicks on wings and tail
Aero Tech LC-2P yoke mounted TSO'd IFR clock and approach timer
G.E. 04509 Halogen high output landing light
Whelen wing tip strobes
Whelen dual flash red/white tail strobe
Dual Yoke mounted PTT switches with stuck mic disconnect toggle switch mounted in panel
NAT commercial InterVox 4 place intercom with pilot isolate switch
Bendix King KA-33 Avionics cooling fan
ACK 30.8 altitude encoder with RS-232 / GPS capability
CV-J4-P inline vacuum pump filter between pump and regulator
Steve's Aircraft SA3-00 STC'd gascolator upgrade 12/2010
Factory ammeter replaced (06/2010)
Reiff engine sump heater
Champion Iridium fine wire spark plugs
Alternate static source
Engine annunciator panel
Electronics International instruments in custom made aluminum sub-panel:
EI UGB-16 graphic engine monitor w/digital readout and bar graphs / programmable (12/2010)
EI FP-5L digital / GPS interface capable fuel flow instrument (12/2010)
EI MUX-8A flight data recorder with output / download plug (12/2010)
Hobbs meter
Electric pitch trim
New Gill G-35 battery (07/2012)
Upgraded copper battery cable kit
New Zeftronics solid state alternator contol (07/2012)
Alternator rebuilt (03/2013)
Dedicated external Nav Com antenna with panel mounted BNC connector and coax cable for hand held radio back-up use
Avionics master switch
Narco Com 810 TSO'd digital COM 1
Narco Com 810+ TSO's digital COM 2 with channel memory feature
Narco Nav 122 TSO'd Nav 1 with VOR G/S coupled to A/P
Narco Nac 121 TSO'd NAV 2 VOR coupled to A/P
Narco CP 136 TSO'd audio panel with Marker Beacon
Narco AT 165 TSO'd digital transponder New (12/2010)
Garmin / Apollo GX-55 TSO'd IFR enroute GPS with moving map and Jepp data card coupled to A/P with remote mounted IFR CDI and annunciator instrument
Jeppesen Skybound USB IFR GPS Flight data card update burner for all PCMCIA, Edge and Garmin data cards with software and manual.
Piper Autocontrol IIIB autopilot coupled to GPS and NAV radios
BFG WX-900 Storm Scope w/approx. 400 hrs on it
D&M ELT
Heated pitot
True airspeed indicator
Oil analysis performed at every annual for past 20 years and on file, no issues
Halon 2 1/2 lb fire extinguisher mounted on floor just ahead of pilots seat in S/S bracket
Overhead ventilation system with blower
Leading edge protection strip on prop blades
All S/S hardware in airframe and structural S/S hardware in fuel tanks
New battery box hold down nylon straps
New baggage compartment door seal and strap
All windows sealed with PRC
Entire airframe treated with Dinitrol AV-8 anti-corrosion treatment
Extensively detailed logs and records
Rear bulkhead/hat rack removed and notched riv-nuts and S/S machine screws installed in place of factory sheet metal screws
All interior panels including the overhead vent system have been removed and the hardware replaced with tinnerman nuts, riv-nuts or what ever the best method to retain them was - no more loose or missing interior screws and "buzzing" plastic parts
Click to expand...
 
bartmc said:
If you want overpriced crap, go with airtex. Otherwise order some kydex from interstate plastics, some carpet from tnwings.com, foam from Scandia and your fabric from marion aircraft. Mine was $800 bucks all in but I didn't do the headliner. Local Hot Rod restoration shop sewed it all up nice a neat with burn certs and everything with superior materials than those airtex uses.

I'm sure those Narcos are flying off the shelf at bennett, nobody is buying those for a new install. Like I said, worthless except to some guy trying to keep his Narco panel on life support. Some things can be fixed on Narcos, some can't due to the service model Narco implemented (i.e send it back to NARCO) and the way they went out (C-YA!!). The market value on those radios when considering the purchase price of the plane is $0.00, you might sell them for a buck or two on eBay. Probably not worth what it'll cost you to remove them.

Here's what an As Removed 12D and indicator is "worth"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Narco-Mark-...iation_Parts_Gear&hash=item46107e26d6&vxp=mtr

now subtract out your avionics guy's bill for removing and cleaning up the wires, eBay fees and your time dealing with selling and shipping it and you'll see where the value is headed.
Click to expand...


So... how much was the paintjob? What's jetglow per sprayable gallon these days? $300?
 
bnt83 said:
So... how much was the paintjob? What's jetglow per sprayable gallon these days? $300?
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No idea, paint was 7.5/10, no need for it.

OP said seller was justifying his high asking price because of the new interior. I was just pointing out about what I'd value that at... a nicer job than mine $2K, maybe. Cherokee interiors are mind numbingly simple to create and install.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I too am in the market, but probably for a Cirrus. I am willing to pay someone to help me. What's the best way on this site to find someone to advocate for me and bargain? I work way too much and don't have time to do lots of shopping and evaluations. It's worth every penny for me to pay someone.
Click to expand...

A buyer's agent is what you need. I PM'd you with a suggestion.
 
Thanks for all the replies so far, this is good information. I will continue to search for a good deal and compare it similar planes on the market.


somorris said:
Hi LevelWing. There are people around who act as buyer's agents. If you get a good one (and there are some), it would be well worth the fee. There is even a really old guy here that I have heard good things about :). Based strictly on your original post and the fact that there are a lot of shysters out there (especially dealing with airplanes), I think you would be well advised to think about this. The Cherokee you looked at sounds high to me, too, by the way.
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How much would one of these buyer's agents cost? Also, how do I know that this buyer's agent is legit and has the right qualifications? This is the internet, after all. ;)
 
You need to decide what type of aircraft you want and narrow the field.rather than looking for just a good deal.then go through the web sites like barnstormers and trade a plane and controller to see what is out there and what the average prices are. Also find a good mechanic to do a per buy I would never use sellers mechanic even if the owner paid.good luck be patient your deal will come.
 
frfly172 said:
You need to decide what type of aircraft you want and narrow the field.rather than looking for just a good deal.then go through the web sites like barnstormers and trade a plane and controller to see what is out there and what the average prices are. Also find a good mechanic to do a per buy I would never use sellers mechanic even if the owner paid.good luck be patient your deal will come.
Click to expand...
I was referring to a Cherokee 180 (an Archer would work too). I've been searching those websites and the prices are all over the place. Several Cherokee 180's are going for well above what the one I found is. Some may also have better equipment, though.
 
LevelWing said:
I was referring to a Cherokee 180 (an Archer would work too). I've been searching those websites and the prices are all over the place. Several Cherokee 180's are going for well above what the one I found is. Some may also have better equipment, though.
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"going for" and what they actually sell for are two widely different concepts. Unfortunately we rarely hear what the actual contracted price was.

And not uncommon for a buyer to find something a bit high priced, submit a clear offer for less (sometimes a lot less) that is supported by the accompanying research, and have that low offer be accepted.

There are many moving parts to this process. And the folks that do their homework to learn about each part often are the more satisfied when they fly it home.
 
It might be helpful to know that the for-sale ads in the big publications have been tracked, researched and followed-up for years by people who do that stuff for a living. They report that a very low percentage of airplanes that are advertised ever sell and attribute most of the inactivity to unreasonable expectations by sellers. More evidence of this behavior can be observed by comparing max bid and buy-it-now prices on ebay.
 
wabower said:
It might be helpful to know that the for-sale ads in the big publications have been tracked, researched and followed-up for years by people who do that stuff for a living. They report that a very low percentage of airplanes that are advertised ever sell and attribute most of the inactivity to unreasonable expectations by sellers. More evidence of this behavior can be observed by comparing max bid and buy-it-now prices on ebay.
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While it's hard to know the final selling price, you can get a good idea of what's moving and what's not by watching the ads for a while. I bought my first airplane from an expired ebay auction I found in Google's cache and sold my airplane via eBay. both for more than the final bid but less than the buy it now price. I think planes sell because of ebay, just not ON ebay.
 
I browsed thru all the planes on eBay earlier today, and, I was impressed by the LACK of bids on 90% of the planes. Perhaps even more. Very few planes had ANY bids. Most were sitting at zero bids.

The Archer above and a RV might have had the most bidders of any planes.
 
All of the ebay sellers that I've talked to agree with you. The auction format is not conducive to airplane transactions, so the primary benefit of the ads seems to be the exposure that is generated from the bazillion lookers.

But we all know about numerous planes that have been advertised on many different sites and have never drawn a bid even close to the seller's perception of value. Even some "creampuff" Cessna twins. :D

bartmc said:
While it's hard to know the final selling price, you can get a good idea of what's moving and what's not by watching the ads for a while. I bought my first airplane from an expired ebay auction I found in Google's cache and sold my airplane via eBay. both for more than the final bid but less than the buy it now price. I think planes sell because of ebay, just not ON ebay.
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wabower said:
But we all know about numerous planes that have been advertised on many different sites and have never drawn a bid even close to the seller's perception of value. Even some "creampuff" Cessna twins. :D
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I thought all Twin Cessnas were perfect?
 
What's the general consensus on vref? I used it on the AOPA site for that Cherokee I found and it said it was worth about $45,000. That didn't include any estimated values of the avionics in there (their site didn't list the avionics that's in the plane).
 
LevelWing said:
What's the general consensus on vref? I used it on the AOPA site for that Cherokee I found and it said it was worth about $45,000. That didn't include any estimated values of the avionics in there (their site didn't list the avionics that's in the plane).
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I don't trust Vref
 
It's one of many such services. Note the value and move on while asking yourself it it's really likely that each little accessory will cause an increase in market value. Because it's available to owners and seen by many in the business as overly generous on valuations, it will always be viewed somewhat dubiously by people in the business, of which I am one.

LevelWing said:
What's the general consensus on vref? I used it on the AOPA site for that Cherokee I found and it said it was worth about $45,000. That didn't include any estimated values of the avionics in there (their site didn't list the avionics that's in the plane).
Click to expand...
 
LevelWing said:
What's the general consensus on vref? I used it on the AOPA site for that Cherokee I found and it said it was worth about $45,000. That didn't include any estimated values of the avionics in there (their site didn't list the avionics that's in the plane).
Click to expand...

Why do you think your seller is pricing it at 45K? Ring a bell? VRef's out to lunch....
 
LevelWing said:
What's the general consensus on vref? I used it on the AOPA site for that Cherokee I found and it said it was worth about $45,000. That didn't include any estimated values of the avionics in there (their site didn't list the avionics that's in the plane).
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Ususally at least 10% high on the 40 year old single engine spam cans in my guesstimation. If a seller is asking Vref or above, he should have a compelling verifiable reason. Ive seen planes worth more than Vref, ususally not for sale and rare.
 
wabower said:
It's one of many such services. Note the value and move on while asking yourself it it's really likely that each little accessory will cause an increase in market value. Because it's available to owners and seen by many in the business as overly generous on valuations, it will always be viewed somewhat dubiously by people in the business, of which I am one.
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Are there other valuation guides out there I can compare against? When buying/selling/trading a car people often times use Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds and NADA that are used as a reference; I assume there are others for airplanes as well (though I don't know if they're free or cost).

Here are some examples of Cherokee 180's I've found but have a hard time determining actual value:

Cherokee 180

Cherokee 180

Just picked a couple for examples.
 
LevelWing said:
Are there other valuation guides out there I can compare against? When buying/selling/trading a car people often times use Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds and NADA that are used as a reference; I assume there are others for airplanes as well (though I don't know if they're free or cost).

Here are some examples of Cherokee 180's I've found but have a hard time determining actual value:

Cherokee 180

Cherokee 180

Just picked a couple for examples.
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I believe there is but it's expensive to access.

Guessing the value of a 40-50 year old plane by computer algorithm is only going to be so accurate. Those two you just posted are great examples of planes to check on once a week, then see if they show back up after they expire. IT's a buyers market but IMHO, good planes priced right are moving.
 
ANFL. NAAA (on TAP) and Blue Book (subscription only and used by most banks) are also credible sources for valuations. Be sure you understand the difference between valuations and appraisals and why banks may use one or both in evaluating purchase-money loans.

You'll learn a lot by building your own spreadsheet and calling sellers of listed planes. At first it may be a jumble of information but you'll soon become adept at sorting and sifting required to recognize the things you want and be able to impute the values accordingly.

The only value that matters is what the parties agree to accept, and as a general rule you can bet that sellers will say the published values are too low and buyers will say they're too high.
LevelWing said:
Are there other valuation guides out there I can compare against? When buying/selling/trading a car people often times use Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds and NADA that are used as a reference; I assume there are others for airplanes as well (though I don't know if they're free or cost).

Here are some examples of Cherokee 180's I've found but have a hard time determining actual value:

Cherokee 180

Cherokee 180

Just picked a couple for examples.
Click to expand...
 
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