Aircraft Evaluation & Pre-Buy Inspections

I almost bought an late 70s Archer II back in the spring. IIRC, the engine time was on the higher side at around 1600hrs, around 5000 TT. Had a GNS430 in it, newer paint, clean but original(old) looking interior. I know it went for 48 because that's what they told me it went for when I called a couple days later with a lower offer... $48,000 was their asking price.

I'm currently waiting on a pre-buy on another Archer II... if it comes out clean I'll soon be an owner. Still new and inexperienced myself, but I've pumped google, this forum, and anyone who knows anything about airplanes(and a few who don't) for advice, information, whatever.

I get different answers from all over. Also, I don't know how many phone numbers I've called to get a broker telling me my offer is "spot on" but the owner won't budge.

Old airplanes are hard to price because of the wide varation in value based on engine times and what's in the panel or how good the interior/paint is, and so on. Keep looking, keep checking in on what stuff sold for and you'l get the idea. When you have it, you can offer a fair price and if the owner/seller has done their homework they'll know that's a fair price too and you can do business. Else, move on. This is how I've done it anyway, for better or worse.
 
Just a warning. On old pipers (and new ones), corrosion can be the deal killer. If the pre-buy mechanic knows what SB1006 is use him if he doesn't, don't.
 
bartmc said:
Just a warning. On old pipers (and new ones), corrosion can be the deal killer. If the pre-buy mechanic knows what SB1006 is use him if he doesn't, don't.
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I'll be sure to ask about this if I find one.

I'm still tempted to fly the one I found though it may be pointless because the owner already said he's not willing to budge too much. I talked to someone else about this plane and was told that the owner really does keep it in great shape. Again, that doesn't mean it's worth the price.

I was really hoping to purchase an aircraft to begin IFR training. While I'm in no hurry to purchase an aircraft (want to make sure I get the right one) that means I either delay my IFR training or suck it up and pay the ~$200/hr to rent one plus the instructor.
 
LevelWing said:
I'll be sure to ask about this if I find one.

I'm still tempted to fly the one I found though it may be pointless because the owner already said he's not willing to budge too much. I talked to someone else about this plane and was told that the owner really does keep it in great shape. Again, that doesn't mean it's worth the price.

I was really hoping to purchase an aircraft to begin IFR training. While I'm in no hurry to purchase an aircraft (want to make sure I get the right one) that means I either delay my IFR training or suck it up and pay the ~$200/hr to rent one plus the instructor.
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I might get flamed for this BUT.... If I were going to be laying down 450 bejamin franklins for a ride who's initial purpose was IFR training with later asperations of flying it IFR, I'd want to go /G which means an IFR certified GPS, preferably a 430(w) or better. The best deal to get one is to buy one with a plane already installed around it. They aint cheap to add on later.

SB-1006 is wing spar corrosion inspection every 7 years and yes it does happen, it is VERY expensive to coorect and even though it's an SB, most owners I know consider it mandatory. The wings will fall off, literally. Plus you get to change the fuel hoses out while you're at it (a good thing), this guy just found fuel hoses from 1966 still on his rig while doing the inspection (not a good thing) http://www.piperforum.com/f9/sb1006-3832/ and a lot of times the fuel sender gasket is leaking and needs replacement as does some of the fuel vent tube rubber joints.

There's a reason the inspection gets neglected for 47 years, the tanks are usually a pain in the ass to remove and inspect.

I wouldn't consider buying a piper unless the SB was recently complied with, if everything else is cherry and the SB hasn't been done, make it a part of the deal to purchase. I insisted that the buyer of my plane do so, when he arrived, the tanks were off and he could see for himself.
 
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bartmc said:
I might get flamed for this BUT.... If I were going to be laying down 450 bejamin franklins for a ride who's initial purpose was IFR training with later asperations of flying it IFR, I'd want to go /G which means an IFR certified GPS, preferably a 430(w) or better. The best deal to get one is to buy one with a plane already installed around it. They aint cheap to add on later.

SB-1006 is wing spar corrosion inspection every 7 years and yes it does happen, it is VERY expensive to coorect and even though it's an SB, most owners I know consider it mandatory. The wings will fall off, literally. Plus you get to change the fuel hoses out while you're at it (a good thing), this guy just found fuel hoses from 1966 still on his rig while doing the inspection (not a good thing) http://www.piperforum.com/f9/sb1006-3832/ and a lot of times the fuel sender gasket is leaking and needs replacement as does some of the fuel vent tube rubber joints.

There's a reason the inspection gets neglected for 47 years, the tanks are usually a pain in the ass to remove and inspect.

I wouldn't consider buying a piper unless the SB was recently complied with, if everything else is cherry and the SB hasn't been done, make it a part of the deal to purchase. I insisted that the buyer of my plane do so, when he arrived, the tanks were off and he could see for himself.
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The GPS is a fair point (though I do have an iPad and ForeFlight and am looking to invest in a Stratus anyway).

Just for comparisons sake, how does this Cherokee 160 look? It does have a GPS though it's only a 160HP. The avionics look much better in it. I'm just trying to get a better sense of value.
 
Don't confuse the two issues or let the plane purchase delay your IR training. The cost won't necessarily be higher if you rent, and I'd bet even money that your all-in cost will actually be less. It's easy to get trapped in linear mode and kid yourself that your cost will be less if you buy the plane first, but that's far from assured and highly speculative.

I do this stuff for a living and caution buyers up front that patience is the most important part of buying a plane. I normally figure six months is about the quickest a deal will get done, and 2-3X that long isn't unusual.


LevelWing said:
I'll be sure to ask about this if I find one.

I'm still tempted to fly the one I found though it may be pointless because the owner already said he's not willing to budge too much. I talked to someone else about this plane and was told that the owner really does keep it in great shape. Again, that doesn't mean it's worth the price.

I was really hoping to purchase an aircraft to begin IFR training. While I'm in no hurry to purchase an aircraft (want to make sure I get the right one) that means I either delay my IFR training or suck it up and pay the ~$200/hr to rent one plus the instructor.
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LevelWing said:
What's the general consensus on vref? I used it on the AOPA site for that Cherokee I found and it said it was worth about $45,000. That didn't include any estimated values of the avionics in there (their site didn't list the avionics that's in the plane).
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I generally believe vref is about 30% too high, especially if there are many options added in.

A friend recently sold his '75 Archer with a slightly better panel than the 180 the OP is looking at, less engine time, new paint, for less than $45,000.
 
LevelWing said:
The GPS is a fair point (though I do have an iPad and ForeFlight and am looking to invest in a Stratus anyway).

Just for comparisons sake, how does this Cherokee 160 look? It does have a GPS though it's only a 160HP. The avionics look much better in it. I'm just trying to get a better sense of value.
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160s are nice, they don't carry near the market value of the 180 though. The avionics in it are dated but workable.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...ROKEE-180/1968-PIPER-CHEROKEE-180/1258149.htm

is a nice IFR platform.

I would value his panel at $15K more than the examples you posted.
430 with alt hold.

Another one

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...ROKEE-180/1966-PIPER-CHEROKEE-180/1283179.htm


The problem you run into with the nice panels is some owners think it makes up for all the other crap wrong with the plane :)
 
bartmc said:
Just a warning. On old pipers (and new ones), corrosion can be the deal killer. If the pre-buy mechanic knows what SB1006 is use him if he doesn't, don't.
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But not a killer on Mooney, Cessna or Beech????? WTF are you smokin?

You say pipers? All Comanches are completely zinc coated from the factory which your N35 is not. And the tails of Bonanzas are known to just rot off because of the mix in elements used in the tail making it even worse than non painted aluminum.

If you want to make general statements you should ensure that you know what you are talking about.
 
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There are several reasons you might consider going through the process if that plane is close to you.

In car sales they always say do not prejudge the buyer/seller. Just go through the process. Who knows what he will do when you get down to brass tax.

Just do not talk about discounts before it is time to talk about price. If you have not seen the mans plane, its a little early to talk price. Long distance buying is a bit different than local.



LevelWing said:
I'll be sure to ask about this if I find one.

I'm still tempted to fly the one I found though it may be pointless because the owner already said he's not willing to budge too much. I talked to someone else about this plane and was told that the owner really does keep it in great shape. Again, that doesn't mean it's worth the price.

I was really hoping to purchase an aircraft to begin IFR training. While I'm in no hurry to purchase an aircraft (want to make sure I get the right one) that means I either delay my IFR training or suck it up and pay the ~$200/hr to rent one plus the instructor.
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I had a 1966 Cherokee and it is a good plane. It does not matter if it has a 150hp or 160hp. The 10 hp gives you nothing. However it prevents you from using mogas so I would not own a 160hp Cherokee.

This model plane 1966 Cherokee 160 might be worth $20k with 400 SMOH engine and late model paint job and the gps. That is on the high side IMO. I would want to own it for no more than $18k. But like I siad I would rather have a 150hp with the same options.

180hp is worth maybe $8k more than a 150 of the same model, condition and avionics.

I do not think you put an add in value on a cherokee for a basic IFR gps but if it is at least a waas then maybe you add $5k and no more. If it has autopilot then maybe add another $5k. no more.

So Cherokee basic $15k add for very low time engine if newesh and quality; no ad for basic ifr or gps; add for newesh paint/interior.

Add maybe $8k for 180hp.

It would have to be a pretty freaking special 180hp for me to pay much over $30k (newesh engine, newesh paint/interior and with full waas/autopilot).

$45k for a basic Cherokee 180 with basic IFR gps is absolutely a pipe dream.
 
Before buying either of those (180, 160) cherokees:

Consider the warrior II. 160hp O-320 is probably the most reliable engine in GA.
The fuselage is stretched several inches and there is a TON more room in the airplane. The later style tapered wing (as opposed to hershey bar) is a little more favorable.

With wheel pants and a good rig you can expect 115 knots cruise at around 8-9 gph.

Useful load is about 950 lbs.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I had a 1966 Cherokee and it is a good plane. It does not matter if it has a 150hp or 160hp. The 10 hp gives you nothing. However it prevents you from using mogas so I would not own a 160hp Cherokee.

This model plane 1966 Cherokee 160 might be worth $20k with 400 SMOH engine and late model paint job and the gps. That is on the high side IMO. I would want to own it for no more than $18k. But like I siad I would rather have a 150hp with the same options.

180hp is worth maybe $8k more than a 150 of the same model, condition and avionics.

I do not think you put an add in value on a cherokee for a basic IFR gps but if it is at least a waas then maybe you add $5k and no more. If it has autopilot then maybe add another $5k. no more.

So Cherokee basic $15k add for very low time engine if newesh and quality; no ad for basic ifr or gps; add for newesh paint/interior.

Add maybe $8k for 180hp.

It would have to be a pretty freaking special 180hp for me to pay much over $30k (newesh engine, newesh paint/interior and with full waas/autopilot).

$45k for a basic Cherokee 180 with basic IFR gps is absolutely a pipe dream.
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The current market does not bear out these numbers.

Cherokee 180s fetch much more than $8K over a virtually identical 150/160. $15K would be a closer number.

PA28 160(1)s have a mogas STC. some STC upgrades from 150->160 HP might not.

A 1966 PA28 160 with good paint an interior a Certified 155XL GPS will sell in about 8 seconds at $20K if it's a solid plane.

If I wanted that 160 and it checked out, I'd offer $25K then haggle a little.
 
Once you have reviewed the specs, pictures and records you should know the price you are willing to pay if it is "as advertised" when you show up to visually inspect it. If you don't know that number, and if the seller's number isn't in the same ballpark, why would you spend even five minutes debating whether a trip to see it is worthwhile?

Tony_Scarpelli said:
There are several reasons you might consider going through the process if that plane is close to you.

In car sales they always say do not prejudge the buyer/seller. Just go through the process. Who knows what he will do when you get down to brass tax.

Just do not talk about discounts before it is time to talk about price. If you have not seen the mans plane, its a little early to talk price. Long distance buying is a bit different than local.
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Interiors are 1-2k 1k cloth, 2k leather. Go to MX, talk to the hotrod guys.

The auto guys do better work and cost FAR less then "aviation" shops.


Paint ain't anything special (minus fabric planes) and its something a auto painter (or you) can do I you have half a brain (duh don't sand rivits off lol).
I would rather paint the plane myself then have a aviation pair shop do it, I've never seen as many paint runs as on aircraft paint jobs, heck even a Maco cheapo Honda civic paintjob has higher quality the what I've seen in these expensice aero shops do


That 180 is MAYBE a 30k plane.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
I had a 1966 Cherokee and it is a good plane. It does not matter if it has a 150hp or 160hp. The 10 hp gives you nothing. However it prevents you from using mogas so I would not own a 160hp Cherokee.
.
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um. the 10hp gives you "nothing"? are you kidding?

I had a cherokee 140, and upgraded the engine to 160hp, and gained more cruise speed and more climb rate. I had the mogas STC on the 140, but could never find any suitable mogas to put in it because all the gas in this area was contaminated with ethanol.
 
bartmc said:
The current market does not bear out these numbers.

Cherokee 180s fetch much more than $8K over a virtually identical 150/160. $15K would be a closer number.

PA28 160(1)s have a mogas STC. some STC upgrades from 150->160 HP might not.

A 1966 PA28 160 with good paint an interior a Certified 155XL GPS will sell in about 8 seconds at $20K if it's a solid plane.

If I wanted that 160 and it checked out, I'd offer $25K then haggle a little.
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To continue to use the example of the Cherokee 160 from before, the log books are available and I was browsing through them but didn't see any mention of the "moderate hail" damage. How would this affect the price?

As for the Cherokee 180 I found being worth about $30k, there's no way the owner will go for that.

Also, for reference purposes, how much would a mogas STC cost for a 160?
 
Logs won't show hail damage per se but will (or should) show any repairs to flight controls, skins, windshields, or other damaged parts. An appraisal will reflect evidence of hail as a downgrade in airframe condition.

LevelWing said:
To continue to use the example of the Cherokee 160 from before, the log books are available and I was browsing through them but didn't see any mention of the "moderate hail" damage. How would this affect the price?

As for the Cherokee 180 I found being worth about $30k, there's no way the owner will go for that.

Also, for reference purposes, how much would a mogas STC cost for a 160?
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LevelWing said:
Here are some examples of Cherokee 180's I've found but have a hard time determining actual value:

Cherokee 180

Cherokee 180
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The second of those was hangared down the way from the Free Bird. It was for sale for a long time (with a broker) and sold recently for $40K. The owner was very, very relieved.

Cherokee prices have gone in the toilet.
 
LevelWing said:
To continue to use the example of the Cherokee 160 from before, the log books are available and I was browsing through them but didn't see any mention of the "moderate hail" damage. How would this affect the price?

As for the Cherokee 180 I found being worth about $30k, there's no way the owner will go for that.

Also, for reference purposes, how much would a mogas STC cost for a 160?
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Be careful with dents (and patches) on control surfaces, leading edges etc... Word around the campfire is the FAA is getting wound up about those being airworthy issues and AFAIK the only fix is replacement. I dunno if most of what I've seen that I would describe as moderate hail damage would be an issue, but a new aileron had to be mounted on my Cherokee because of a quarter sized dent. I believe the piper service manual forbids skin patches on the Cherokees.

I couldn't stomach hail damage, no easy fix others might not have an issue with it but it effects the value, adjust accordingly by how much you want to explain it to the guy you sell it to.
 
steingar said:
The second of those was hangared down the way from the Free Bird. It was for sale for a long time (with a broker) and sold recently for $40K. The owner was very, very relieved.

Cherokee prices have gone in the toilet.
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So it's back up for sale again? Also, just for curiosity's sake, what do you think of the first one and assuming it's clean based on what you know about it from the listing and logs, what would you value that one at?

bartmc said:
Be careful with dents (and patches) on control surfaces, leading edges etc... Word around the campfire is the FAA is getting wound up about those being airworthy issues and AFAIK the only fix is replacement. I dunno if most of what I've seen that I would describe as moderate hail damage would be an issue, but a new aileron had to be mounted on my Cherokee because of a quarter sized dent. I believe the piper service manual forbids skin patches on the Cherokees.

I couldn't stomach hail damage, no easy fix others might not have an issue with it but it effects the value, adjust accordingly by how much you want to explain it to the guy you sell it to.
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I was just using that one for an example. Though the head's up on the hail is good info and something to keep an eye out for.
 
LevelWing said:
I was just using that one for an example. Though the head's up on the hail is good info and something to keep an eye out for.
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You've simply got to get over that. It makes absolutely no sense and the difference in money won't be noticeable. If it is, it will be due to an unanticipated expense on the plane you buy (and that you should expect that, BTW) not because the training you pay for will be more expensive.
 
wabower said:
You've simply got to get over that. It makes absolutely no sense and the difference in money won't be noticeable. If it is, it will be due to an unanticipated expense on the plane you buy (and that you should expect that, BTW) not because the training you pay for will be more expensive.
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I'm a little confused -- what do I have to get over and what doesn't make sense?
 
Thinking that the money will be any different whether you rent or buy, and that anything will change if you happen to buy a plane after you start training. If you want the rating, as you continue to profess, just get started and let the plane purchase play out over whatever time is necessary to get it done.

LevelWing said:
I'm a little confused -- what do I have to get over and what doesn't make sense?
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wabower said:
Thinking that the money will be any different whether you rent or buy, and that anything will change if you happen to buy a plane after you start training. If you want the rating, as you continue to profess, just get started and let the plane purchase play out over whatever time is necessary to get it done.
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That makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I'd like to start the training sometime soon, work permitting. Either way I need to start accumulating cross-country hours.

I'll continue searching the listings and see what pops up. I doubt I'll fly that 180. Knowing that the owner isn't going to budge much there's not much point. He's not going to come down to the $37-$39k as some others have suggested that the plane may be worth (albeit a guess based on the limited information I provided).
 
LevelWing said:
That makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I'd like to start the training sometime soon, work permitting. Either way I need to start accumulating cross-country hours.

I'll continue searching the listings and see what pops up. I doubt I'll fly that 180. Knowing that the owner isn't going to budge much there's not much point. He's not going to come down to the $37-$39k as some others have suggested that the plane may be worth (albeit a guess based on the limited information I provided).
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Here's another thing to consider. This airplane is inches away. By the time you buy plane tickets, hire strange mechanics for pre-buys and fly it back home (or not BTDT) you could be in a plane a few thousand dollars before you get her home. My dumbass bought a plane not knowing which end of the country I lived in and got to fly it across the country north to south (Texas to Montana) and again diagonally(Montana to Savannah, GA). The closer to home you buy, the better the overall acquisition cost probably will be, or at the very least, less of a PITA.
 
bartmc said:
Here's another thing to consider. This airplane is inches away. By the time you buy plane tickets, hire strange mechanics for pre-buys and fly it back home (or not BTDT) you could be in a plane a few thousand dollars before you get her home. My dumbass bought a plane not knowing which end of the country I lived in and got to fly it across the country north to south (Texas to Montana) and again diagonally(Montana to Savannah, GA). The closer to home you buy, the better the overall acquisition cost probably will be, or at the very least, less of a PITA.
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That's what I thought until others started posting in this thread. Wayne, for example, provided some ways to mitigate some of the costs you mentioned in regards to buying tickets, strange mechanics, etc. That being said, even with new paint and new interior, is it still actually worth $45k? Like I said, the owner will entertain some "reasonable" offers (though that is kind of ambiguous) but won't budge that much. What I would hate is to miss an opportunity on a good plane (assuming it is a good plane), especially one that's this close.
 
Always run the closest traps first. Being able to see it, touch it and pore through the records at your leisure are huge benefits. Since your capitalized costs of buying a plane--or anything else--must include all of the related inspections, title work, travel and lodging (if needed) plus all the other inconveniences of long-distance transactions, you gotta quantify them and adjust the actual dollar cost of each candidate to reflect the true cost of the package.

QUOTE=LevelWing;1204973]That's what I thought until others started posting in this thread. Wayne, for example, provided some ways to mitigate some of the costs you mentioned in regards to buying tickets, strange mechanics, etc. That being said, even with new paint and new interior, is it still actually worth $45k? Like I said, the owner will entertain some "reasonable" offers (though that is kind of ambiguous) but won't budge that much. What I would hate is to miss an opportunity on a good plane (assuming it is a good plane), especially one that's this close.[/QUOTE]
 
Asking prices on TAP and Controller bare no resemblance to selling prices. They are inflated by 30-35% or more in most cases.

bartmc said:
The current market does not bear out these numbers.

Cherokee 180s fetch much more than $8K over a virtually identical 150/160. $15K would be a closer number.

PA28 160(1)s have a mogas STC. some STC upgrades from 150->160 HP might not.

A 1966 PA28 160 with good paint an interior a Certified 155XL GPS will sell in about 8 seconds at $20K if it's a solid plane.

If I wanted that 160 and it checked out, I'd offer $25K then haggle a little.
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When looking at planes the 160hp is a deduct in my book.

You will get more performance from a Powerflow exhaust system than from the difference between a 150 and 160 hp engine.

Ideal Cherokees are 150hp with power flow or 180 hp with power flow; 260/6 with Turbo Rajay.


Bob Noel said:
um. the 10hp gives you "nothing"? are you kidding?

I had a cherokee 140, and upgraded the engine to 160hp, and gained more cruise speed and more climb rate. I had the mogas STC on the 140, but could never find any suitable mogas to put in it because all the gas in this area was contaminated with ethanol.
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LevelWing said:
To continue to use the example of the Cherokee 160 from before, the log books are available and I was browsing through them but didn't see any mention of the "moderate hail" damage. How would this affect the price?

As for the Cherokee 180 I found being worth about $30k, there's no way the owner will go for that.

Also, for reference purposes, how much would a mogas STC cost for a 160?
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This is the problem with the 160hp it has a higher compression so it is more than just paying $1 per hp for the stc and stickers. You know have to do about $2-3k worth of plumbing and put another fuel pump on. So it is prohibitive.

With a 150hp you simply by a sticker and stc for $1 per hp. There are not modifications to the system.
 
bartmc said:
Here's another thing to consider. This airplane is inches away. By the time you buy plane tickets, hire strange mechanics for pre-buys and fly it back home (or not BTDT) you could be in a plane a few thousand dollars before you get her home. My dumbass bought a plane not knowing which end of the country I lived in and got to fly it across the country north to south (Texas to Montana) and again diagonally(Montana to Savannah, GA). The closer to home you buy, the better the overall acquisition cost probably will be, or at the very least, less of a PITA.
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Its a little more understandable when looking for a specialized bird like a Bo but you are right Cherokees are everywhere in every nook and crannie. Why go to tinbucktu to see one?
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Its a little more understandable when looking for a specialized bird like a Bo but you are right Cherokees are everywhere in every nook and crannie. Why go to tinbucktu to see one?
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If the owner is charging too much and won't come down. Though I will say that the majority of the Cherokee's I've seen online so far have all been in the same general price range so I'd love to see some statistics on what they actually sell for.
 
Unfortunately, you'll never know. The appraisal association says their numbers stem from actual sales, but you don't get to see it. The Blue Book and others seek to collect data from subscribers (I'm one and receive an activity questionnaire each quarter) who ostensibly know more about actual sales prices than anyone else because they're directly involved in buy/sell deals.

LevelWing said:
If the owner is charging too much and won't come down. Though I will say that the majority of the Cherokee's I've seen online so far have all been in the same general price range so I'd love to see some statistics on what they actually sell for.
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wabower said:
Unfortunately, you'll never know. The appraisal association says their numbers stem from actual sales, but you don't get to see it. The Blue Book and others seek to collect data from subscribers (I'm one and receive an activity questionnaire each quarter) who ostensibly know more about actual sales prices than anyone else because they're directly involved in buy/sell deals.
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That's unfortunate. What's the reason for not making it available? Without numbers, most people only have to go based on what the ads are listing them for and what people on the internet are suggesting it may or may not be worth.
 
I guess they figure it's NBBTO. That's kinda how I see it. FWIW in both #40 and #54 I mentioned that you need to do the market research that will allow you to know the price you're willing to pay for airplanes if they are "as advertised" wherever they happen to be listed, and also suggested that it won't be easy. As you're now learning first-hand.

LevelWing said:
That's unfortunate. What's the reason for not making it available? Without numbers, most people only have to go based on what the ads are listing them for and what people on the internet are suggesting it may or may not be worth.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
I think you are talking about control surfaces only: ailerons, Rudder ect..
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I'm hearing buzzing about "airfoils" and "control surfaces" these days. I don't think a dent in the cowling is going raise many hackles but I've heard reports about leading edge dings and undersized briefs causing some people grief.
 
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