Air Force evaluating enlisted pilots.

overdrive148 said:
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Nooooooooooooo!!
 
Sundancer said:
Several huh? And never met an officer pilot azzhole just stacking it up for retirement?

The military wants to recriut and retain the people they need to achieve readiness; culture has changed, and they're looking around at what they can do to adapt. It may be an undergrad degree is a good predictor of success, and they'll stick with it. More likely some mix of preparation and platforms will be the way to go - like Army with WO and commisioned pilots, or USAF with enlisted flying unmanned vehicles.
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USAF used to have WOs. I think the last ones retired in the 70s. Owner of an FBO I flew for was a retired WO w/ a maintenance background in the Air Force.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That's because the M stands for Military and the Air Force isn't.

:p
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:raspberry: Uh huh. FWIW Air Force calls it Air Force Specialty Code, or AFSC for short. At least when I was in, not sure if they still do.
 
SkyDog58 said:
And here I was thinking that you were in when it was still part of the Army. :D
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No, I'm old but ain't that old! My dad may have been though, he went in the USAF after being in the Marines during WW2.
 
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wanttaja said:
I wonder if the difference is the Enlistment have...enlistments. They sign up for a fixed period, four years. Officers do not have a fixed service requirement, except as needed to "pay back" training (like flight school). After that time, they're free to stay or go just about any time (at least when I was in...).

If nothing else, it would let the Air Force plan things better if there was a known window when an enlisted pilot's term was up.

Ron Wanttaja
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All UPT graduates owe the USAF 10 years from the day the put on wings. Additional schools and moves can add to that, but it's a fixed 10 years to start with so they have that pre-defined term all laid out to the day. (I got out of AD 10 years to the day from UPT and entered the ANG the same day). Once your commitment is up you can resign basically whenever you want.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah I don't think it'll go past a testing phase. Even if they go with enlisted pilots, it'll probably only apply to those who are already enlisted and are stand outs in their current MOS.
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After gaining more info on it, the test is really to see how the learning would be for a high school grad (enlisted guy/gal) and a college grad (Lt's) who start an advanced training program that is tech-heavy. They are going to fly the T-6 but doing a lot of out of the box learning that's different from the tried/true UPT environment that the USAF has used for years. If they can get either (or both) test groups to the same standards in 8 months that the regular UPT studs get in a year; the test may move to other environments. Maybe more flying schools or might go to PJ/JTAC or non-operator stuff like finance - nothing is certain yet. The T-6 is the cheapest thing to operate so that's where it's starting. Sounds like they are really trying to get a broad test case study done so they included various educational backgrounds. It sounds like the enlisted folks will have to NOT have a degree to qualify - as previously pointed out, many of our enlisted folks have a degree and in many cases they have several.
 
I would have gone through Army WOCS helicopter school in a heartbeat, except my vision at the time wasn't good enough.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I would have gone through Army WOCS helicopter school in a heartbeat, except my vision at the time wasn't good enough.
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Yep, used to be 20/20 near and far! They changed it in early 2000 to allow glasses to get to that 20/20. Few years later they allowed PRK / LASIK.
 
frfly172 said:
Born to early again,
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x
Or too soon depending on your opinion and date of birth. I'm a late 1939 model and was totally unexpected. Ten years later than my brother and eleven later than my sister. In retrospect I would have loved to seen the look on my dad's face back then.

OTOH, they took me into their hearts and I'm still here today to testify in their favor. In spite of fear the WWII years were not all bad. Mom got extra cupons because she had a toddler, dad had a good job as an engineer designing designing both 6x 6's and DUKW's so we all ate and got to see military vehicles being tested at the Milford proving grounds and other sites near Pontiac.

Although it was war time I still have remembrances of those days.
 
wanttaja said:
Back when I was a 2nd Looie, there was a sergeant in our squadron with Command Pilot wings. Was told the Air Force was going to RIF him when he was a Major, at about his 16-year point. They allowed him to stay in to get his last four years for retirement, but he had to do it as the E- equivalent of his grade.

Ron Wanttaja
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When I got to my squadron at Eglin in 1970 we had a Chief Master Sgt who was the go to guy for everything. He was a WWII, and Korean War vet and was just back from his 3rd or 4th tour in SEA when I arrived on base.
Without a doubt he was one of the coolest, most totally together guys I ever served with. He sort of took me under his wing when I arrived, and kept me on the straight and narrow. Did I mention he was a full-blooded Ogalala Sioux?
So one day the Squadron Commander (my GIB) comes in the ready room and tells us all that the Chief is retiring and we all need to report in full dress uniforms tomorrow. NO EXCEPTIONS. As if anyone would bail on the Chief.
The next day the entire Wing is out on the flight line in the hot Florida sun, marching in review for the Chief who is standing there dressed in his finest with more medals than a North Korean General, and wearing the rank of Brigadier General. we are all gob-smacked! After we are done parading, the Secretary of the Air Force pins another medal on him and announces that the chief has been reinstated to the highest permanent rank he was entitled to hold, and retired with full rights and privileges etc, etc.
It turns out the Chief enlisted in Canada in 1939, flew Spitfires and Hurricanes, until the U.S. entered the war. He then went into the Army Air Corps and flew P-38's and P-51s, 2 tours in Europe and one in the Pacific. He was an Ace and a Lt Col by the end of WWII.
When the war ended, racism reared it's ugly head. Someone in the Pentagon didn't like native Americans and he was told if he wanted to stay in the military he had to accept a reduction in grade to Tech Sgt. So he did.
The legendary Chappie James (our former Wing Commander) went to Washington, and went to bat for the Chief and he got him the recognition he deserved. No one in the entire Wing knew anything about any of this. The Chief never, ever talked about it.
There was one hell of an epic blow out in the squadron hanger afterward, I can tell you.
The next day our "Chief Brigadier" found me hanging out in the Nav/Radio/ECM shop ( I used to shameless bribe the enlisted guys, because I was one for my first year in the Air Force). He gave me a pair of his wings "for luck".
They must have worked, because I'm here to tell the tale.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep, used to be 20/20 near and far! They changed it in early 2000 to allow glasses to get to that 20/20. Few years later they allowed PRK / LASIK.
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Story of my life. Got PRK in 2008, but having age waivers, and bubbles didn’t make it happen for me. Oh well, thank god the Army didn’t turn flying into a job. Well, sort of....kinda.
 
mscard88 said:
USAF used to have WOs. I think the last ones retired in the 70s. Owner of an FBO I flew for was a retired WO w/ a maintenance background in the Air Force.
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I think you're right; I saw two USAF WOs at Keesler AFB, 1972-73, but never saw another one after that.
 
wanttaja said:
Back when I was a 2nd Looie, there was a sergeant in our squadron with Command Pilot wings. Was told the Air Force was going to RIF him when he was a Major, at about his 16-year point. They allowed him to stay in to get his last four years for retirement, but he had to do it as the E- equivalent of his grade.

Ron Wanttaja
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My Reserve squadron had an E-5 scheduler in that same boat, wearing his rated pilot wings. Needed a year or so to make his retirement, and was 'attached" to us, working with the ARTS full time. Good guy, knocked out his MBA and did well thereafter.
 
Shepherd said:
I flew Double Uglies for a living, and sometimes Spads, OV-10s and Mixmasters, when they needed FACs,
Flying the D/Es was my job, but I really loved the Spads.
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Satan's Angels?
 
Flymy47 said:
Story of my life. Got PRK in 2008, but having age waivers, and bubbles didn’t make it happen for me. Oh well, thank god the Army didn’t turn flying into a job. Well, sort of....kinda.
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Yeah 2008 was a bad time to apply. We had a bunch of bubbles at Rucker because of over recruiting after 9/11. Now, because of the 2012 sequester, they're short pilots again.

All about timing. Fortunately, I applied on a 88 % assession board.
 
Shepherd said:
I flew Double Uglies for a living, and sometimes Spads, OV-10s and Mixmasters, when they needed FACs,
Flying the D/Es was my job, but I really loved the Spads.
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Was the Spad the A1E? Yeah that's a cool plane. A wealthy guy here had 2 of the Navy versions (ADs something) along with 10-15 other warbirds. Yeah, he was wealthy. We had O2s & then OV10s replaced them at Osan. OV10 looked fun to fly. When I was at Eglin there was the 58th TFS Gorillas of the 33TFW 'Nomads', your old unit? F4s there?
 
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Shepherd said:
"The Nomads" because we were always homeless.
Our emblem was a Gorilla. "The Mighty Gorillas". Don't ask me, I have NO idea why. I don't know if anyone did.

View attachment 58428
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Don't know the history of why the Gorillas are Gorillas, but the Mighty Gorillas have a storied history! They had the lions (Gorillas?) share of the air-to-air kills in Desert Storm flying Eagles. They got reactivated a few years ago and are flying F-35's.

Shepherd said:
When I got to my squadron at Eglin in 1970 we had a Chief Master Sgt who was the go to guy for everything. He was a WWII, and Korean War vet and was just back from his 3rd or 4th tour in SEA when I arrived on base.
Without a doubt he was one of the coolest, most totally together guys I ever served with. He sort of took me under his wing when I arrived, and kept me on the straight and narrow. Did I mention he was a full-blooded Ogalala Sioux?
...
The next day our "Chief Brigadier" found me hanging out in the Nav/Radio/ECM shop ( I used to shameless bribe the enlisted guys, because I was one for my first year in the Air Force). He gave me a pair of his wings "for luck".
They must have worked, because I'm here to tell the tale.
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Wow! What an experience, we just don't get that type of stuff these days. Thanks for sharing.
 
EvilEagle said:
Don't know the history of why the Gorillas are Gorillas, but the Mighty Gorillas have a storied history! They had the lions (Gorillas?) share of the air-to-air kills in Desert Storm flying Eagles. They got reactivated a few years ago and are flying F-35's.
.
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Eagle the 33rd TFW had the most kills, something like 16 if I recall correctly. Don't know how many the 58th had of that total. Knew a few of the 58th guys who were also SOFs, and had a 58th guy at ASA that flew with us, he had some good stories.
 
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mscard88 said:
Was the Spad the A1E? Yeah that's a cool plane. A wealthy guy here had 2 of the Navy versions (ADs something) along with 10-15 other warbirds. Yeah, he was wealthy. We had O2s & then OV10s replaced them at Osan. OV10 looked fun to fly. When I was at Eglin there was the 58th TFS Gorillas of the 33TFW 'Nomads', your old unit? F4s there?
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Spads = A-1E. Loved it. OV-10 was fun, but not on a par with the brute force of the Spad.
58th out of Eglin. Yup That was my outfit. We had a couple of "organizational" changes. Started as the 16th FS, then we all became the 58th. We were flying F-4D/E models.
After Desert Storm (flying the F-15) they were deactivated, then reactivated as an F-35 training unit.
 
Shepherd said:
Spads = A-1E. Loved it. OV-10 was fun, but not on a par with the brute force of the Spad.
58th out of Eglin. Yup That was my outfit. We had a couple of "organizational" changes. Started as the 16th FS, then we all became the 58th. We were flying F-4D/E models.
After Desert Storm (flying the F-15) they were deactivated, then reactivated as an F-35 training unit.
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I was there 81-85. and the 33rd was flying the F15 A&B, then C&D.
 
mscard88 said:
Eagle the 33rd TFW had the most kills, something like 16 if I recall correctly. Don't know how many the 58th had of that total. Knew a few of the 58th guys who were also SOFs, and had a 58th guy at ASA that flew with us, he had some good stories.
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Yep, 16 including the first 3 kills of the war.

http://www.fisrg.com/58thHistory.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/58th_Fighter_Squadron

Shepherd said:
After Desert Storm (flying the F-15) they were deactivated, then reactivated as an F-35 training unit.
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Stayed flying Eagles until the fall of 2009, stood down then till they got the F-35 going.
 
Shepherd said:
When I got to my squadron at Eglin in 1970 we had a Chief Master Sgt who was the go to guy for everything. He was a WWII, and Korean War vet and was just back from his 3rd or 4th tour in SEA when I arrived on base.
Without a doubt he was one of the coolest, most totally together guys I ever served with. He sort of took me under his wing when I arrived, and kept me on the straight and narrow. Did I mention he was a full-blooded Ogalala Sioux?
So one day the Squadron Commander (my GIB) comes in the ready room and tells us all that the Chief is retiring and we all need to report in full dress uniforms tomorrow. NO EXCEPTIONS. As if anyone would bail on the Chief.
The next day the entire Wing is out on the flight line in the hot Florida sun, marching in review for the Chief who is standing there dressed in his finest with more medals than a North Korean General, and wearing the rank of Brigadier General. we are all gob-smacked! After we are done parading, the Secretary of the Air Force pins another medal on him and announces that the chief has been reinstated to the highest permanent rank he was entitled to hold, and retired with full rights and privileges etc, etc.
It turns out the Chief enlisted in Canada in 1939, flew Spitfires and Hurricanes, until the U.S. entered the war. He then went into the Army Air Corps and flew P-38's and P-51s, 2 tours in Europe and one in the Pacific. He was an Ace and a Lt Col by the end of WWII.
When the war ended, racism reared it's ugly head. Someone in the Pentagon didn't like native Americans and he was told if he wanted to stay in the military he had to accept a reduction in grade to Tech Sgt. So he did.
The legendary Chappie James (our former Wing Commander) went to Washington, and went to bat for the Chief and he got him the recognition he deserved. No one in the entire Wing knew anything about any of this. The Chief never, ever talked about it.
There was one hell of an epic blow out in the squadron hanger afterward, I can tell you.
The next day our "Chief Brigadier" found me hanging out in the Nav/Radio/ECM shop ( I used to shameless bribe the enlisted guys, because I was one for my first year in the Air Force). He gave me a pair of his wings "for luck".
They must have worked, because I'm here to tell the tale.
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This post needs an option to like more than once.
 
I met ACCM "Nap" Jones, while he was at NAS Alameda in 1980. When he retired in 1981, he was the last Navy enlisted pilot.
 
EvilEagle said:
Don't know the history of why the Gorillas are Gorillas, but the Mighty Gorillas have a storied history! They had the lions (Gorillas?) share of the air-to-air kills in Desert Storm flying Eagles. They got reactivated a few years ago and are flying F-35's.

Wow! What an experience, we just don't get that type of stuff these days. Thanks for sharing.
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16.... yeah, it seems as technology advances there are fewer air to air opportunities.

In WWII the 49th TFW destroyed 678 enemy aircraft (the most of any fighter group in that theater), with 43 pilots becoming Aces.
 
GlennAB1 said:
16.... yeah, it seems as technology advances there are fewer air to air opportunities.

In WWII the 49th TFW destroyed 678 enemy aircraft (the most of any fighter group in that theater), with 43 pilots becoming Aces.
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Don't I know it. I've been an air-to-air only guy my whole career. How many a/a engagements have we had in the last 18 years? One. And that was the Hornet dude a few months ago. We still have plenty to train for. The air to air game (for near-peer adversaries) would be a full-out battle of Brittan style. I don't think (nor hope) that will happen, but it would be a fo'real shootin match. The US has enjoyed air dominance since April 15, 1953; all the "bad guy" countries know that and they want some of that action too.
 
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