Air Force Academy Students into APA in Denver

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SportPilotCO

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CarlH
Wondering if there are any AFA CFI's on the board here? I guess it is just an irritant to listen to.. but every time an AFA Cirrus comes into APA they call tower at 15-20 miles out and report inbound with ATIS for patterns. Every time, or nearly so, the tower says "great, do you want touch and goes, stop and goes, taxibacks, etc". This of course requires an extra radio call every time back to the tower to tell them what they want to do. With APA being one of the busiest GA airports in the country, the tower has every right and need to ask this. The rest of us flying into there have to deal with the radio congestion this causes. I just don't get why the CFI's from AFA insist on not just making the standard call that almost every other plane going into APA does saying they are inbound for touch and goes, or whatever with the ATIS on the initial call up. It isn't that tough. I hope this isn't viewed as whiney, but it seems like the premier military academy could do better.

Carl
 
Sorry, I don't have an answer for you as I am not an AFA instructor, however I thought it was coincidental that I opened this thread immediately after I got through typing a response in another thread saying that GA doesn't seem to be in trouble in urban areas. :goofy:
 
Well the folks who fly jets into APA never seem to cause any issues with those of us flying GA in. It just sounds like a broken record to hear these folks calling in with the same call and getting the same question every time.
 
SportPilotCO said:
Well the folks who fly jets into APA never seem to cause any issues with those of us flying GA in. It just sounds like a broken record to hear these folks calling in with the same call and getting the same question every time.
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Well... the folks who fly jets into APA (me being one) don't usually want touch and goes, stop and goes or taxi-backs, so tower never asks us that question. :D
 
Good point. I guess my point is that I usually hear quite a bit of professionalism on the part of most of the pilots going into there and an acceptance that it is a busy airport. I don't think the actions of the AFA guys reflect an acceptance of this.

Carl
 
SportPilotCO said:
Good point. I guess my point is that I usually hear quite a bit of professionalism on the part of most of the pilots going into there and an acceptance that it is a busy airport. I don't think the actions of the AFA guys reflect an acceptance of this.

Carl
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I agree that stating what they want without a query from the tower would cut down on conversation but I don't know what you can do about it other than hope that someone here is an AFA instructor. Even then, it would probably be a long shot influencing some other organization's procedures from the outside.
 
Gotta remember the zoomies are beginners and are using specific scripts and are required (for the most part) to follow those scripts exactly as written. What bothers me even more is that they are spending so much time with the avionics inside the cirri, they forget to look outside. "But we have TCAS!" is the argument. By the time they recognize the TCAS warning to look outside, it's too late.
 
Yeah I agree with your comments re the students. I have heard this multiple times from their instructors though. Maybe I am just being overly sensitive but it drives me nuts to hear it every time.

I agree on the see and avoid issues. This is a serious issue going into APA.

Carl
 
Is "... for patterns" correct phraseology? I've never heard it before, but I've only landed at APA twice. I believe 'touch and go', 'stop and go', 'landing' are correct, but if there is a defined action called 'patterns' that is new to me.
 
I learned at APA and fly in and out of there often. I also listen to them on LiveATC with Denver approach as background noise. I can tell you that in my experience this is limited to the AFA folks. I flew in the backend of jets in the AF and I can't remember us using that call when coming in for pattern work at either civilian or military towers.

Carl
 
SportPilotCO said:
I learned at APA and fly in and out of there often. I also listen to them on LiveATC with Denver approach as background noise. I can tell you that in my experience this is limited to the AFA folks. I flew in the backend of jets in the AF and I can't remember us using that call when coming in for pattern work at either civilian or military towers.

Carl
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Contact FTG 306th at the academy, that's the folks that are responsible for the aircraft and training. They might be able to provide some insight...
 
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docmirror said:
Is "... for patterns" correct phraseology? I've never heard it before, but I've only landed at APA twice. I believe 'touch and go', 'stop and go', 'landing' are correct, but if there is a defined action called 'patterns' that is new to me.
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I was taught to say inbound for closed pattern.
 
murphey said:
Gotta remember the zoomies are beginners and are using specific scripts and are required (for the most part) to follow those scripts exactly as written. What bothers me even more is that they are spending so much time with the avionics inside the cirri, they forget to look outside. "But we have TCAS!" is the argument. By the time they recognize the TCAS warning to look outside, it's too late.
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Reminds of a few years ago I was descending for landing in my glider and watched a silver Cirrus pass about 500 feet above me. Since there were other gliders in the area, I made a radio call, silver Cirrus over XYZ airport Northwest Bound at 12,000 Feet. The cirrus happened to me monitoring the CTAF freqency and responded he didn't see us on his TCAS. At which point I advised him there were 7 gliders in area of which only one had a transponder.

Brian
 
SportPilotCO said:
Maybe I am just being overly sensitive but it drives me nuts to hear it every time.
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Perhaps you are being overly sensitive. If it was that much of a problem, one would think that the controllers would be raising the issue with the AFA folks. And to echo another post, I was also taught to request "circuits" (in Canada) and "closed pattern" in the US.
 
daemon said:
Perhaps you are being overly sensitive. If it was that much of a problem, one would think that the controllers would be raising the issue with the AFA folks. And to echo another post, I was also taught to request "circuits" (in Canada) and "closed pattern" in the US.
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I'd agree. While a better request would be the exact approach, it's a given that they want closed traffic. Well, give them the option. If they can't, then give them the approach that allows closed traffic (touch & go, low approach). I think the controller in this case needs to think outside the box a bit. Asking the student what approach they want is a waste of transmission when the controller could have taken positive control of the situation.
 
It doesn't stop with the AFA. We continually hear C-130s out of Little Rock AFB using the dreaded ATITAPA call.
 
The instructors teach them a certain way and it sticks. The most efficient way? Probably not. But good luck changing it. When I started flying for the Air Force I noticed instructors calling up on Clearance Delivery asking for "IFR to XYZ, clearance on request, ready to copy" Why they say that is beyond me, but its pretty much the same as your scenario. It would take more effort than it is worth(which is practically nil) to get people to change it.
 
O.K., we covered the AF, and then the Army, what would the Navy students/IPs do? Maybe they would fly right on in and not call or talk to anybody?

They could just say they are practicing for the 'EMCON' recovery at the ship.
 
I think I would enjoy seeing AF students fly into my home strip. At this point I would be happy to see anyone fly into my home strip. It is getting a bit lonely.
 
ChemGuy said:
Why are guys from West Point flying into APA? :D
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There might have been some folks from Sandhurst around. There was a Royal Air Force C-17 hanging around for a bit.
 
Graueradler said:
It doesn't stop with the AFA. We continually hear C-130s out of Little Rock AFB using the dreaded ATITAPA call.
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One of my military students picked up that habit after hearing the C-130s. His excuse was that they only make standard calls so he should also. :mad2:

It finally took an older fellow at North Little Rock, on a busy Saturday, to correct him. He made that radio call and this is what we heard back "Son, we don't say that around here. I suggest you move along or I can't protect you" :rofl::rofl:

Same guy who told another student of mine who was taxing with the brakes "It taxis a lot better with out brakes, Also it's easier on our ears..." :D
 
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SportPilotCO said:
Wondering if there are any AFA CFI's on the board here? I guess it is just an irritant to listen to.. but every time an AFA Cirrus comes into APA they call tower at 15-20 miles out and report inbound with ATIS for patterns. Every time, or nearly so, the tower says "great, do you want touch and goes, stop and goes, taxibacks, etc". This of course requires an extra radio call every time back to the tower to tell them what they want to do. With APA being one of the busiest GA airports in the country, the tower has every right and need to ask this. The rest of us flying into there have to deal with the radio congestion this causes. I just don't get why the CFI's from AFA insist on not just making the standard call that almost every other plane going into APA does saying they are inbound for touch and goes, or whatever with the ATIS on the initial call up. It isn't that tough. I hope this isn't viewed as whiney, but it seems like the premier military academy could do better.

Carl
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Seems like an issue that could easily be resolved with a phone call from the tower to the 557th FTS to either have the AFA students use a different terminology or explain what the standard procedure is, let the AFA folks say what they want and only notify tower if they intend to deviate.

If you feel it is a significant safety risk, I'd suggest contacting the tower in getting their thoughts. If they decide its something they would like to pursue but aren't sure who to contact PM me and I'll try to figure it out; they fall under the 12th FTW and I have some contacts there.
 
Having flown extensively with an Air Force IP, I would say good luck getting them to change. Their way is the correct way. The civilian world will need to figure out how to deal with it. This is not a judgement, just an observation.
 
TUPilot said:
Seems like an issue that could easily be resolved with a phone call from the tower to the 557th FTS to either have the AFA students use a different terminology or explain what the standard procedure is, let the AFA folks say what they want and only notify tower if they intend to deviate.

If you feel it is a significant safety risk, I'd suggest contacting the tower in getting their thoughts. If they decide its something they would like to pursue but aren't sure who to contact PM me and I'll try to figure it out; they fall under the 12th FTW and I have some contacts there.
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Or more specifically,
http://www.jbsa.af.mil/units/12thflyingtrainingwing/306thflyingtraininggroup/

Have fun. It was a battle to get them to 1) listen & announce on 122.75 and 2) admit there are civilian airplanes in the area, which is the entire N-S corridor from Denver south past Pueblo.
 
Yeah I also like when they are getting flight following and try to use the military designator for the Cirrus with Denver approach. That too never works and they eventually have to say they are a Cirrus.

It is interesting to see where the conversation got to. I think I will just ask a friend who is connected to the tower folks up there if they have ever raised the issue.

Thanks Guys.. Carl
 
sourdough44 said:
O.K., we covered the AF, and then the Army, what would the Navy students/IPs do? Maybe they would fly right on in and not call or talk to anybody?



They could just say they are practicing for the 'EMCON' recovery at the ship.
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They aren't students and they arrive usually in F-18s. Heh. They usually ask for the overhead break to landing.
 
TUPilot said:
Actually, 557th FTS would be the spe3cific unit in question. 306th FTG encompass several units not at the USAFA, including the ops at KPUB. For this specific issues someone with the 557th would be the ideal POC.
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Yup, and if you go to the web page, you'll see the list of units and the CO of each unit, including the COs email address for the 557th
 
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