Ah, the retracts! Gotta love them

genna

genna

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I am starting my Commercial training and today I flew for the very first time in retract piston plane. Arrow III. Plane isn't what i would call mint, but everything seem to be in order for the mission.

For my first lesson we were going to be practicing gear operation. Well.. We did. Full-on emergency troubleshooting of why we are not getting 3 greens(only front and left). Emergency extension didn't seem to work either. Eventually after 10-15 min of trying things somehow all went green and after verifying with tower, we landed uneventfully.

Fun!
 
This thing has manual flaps. I kinda like it. Took a couple of tries to get a feel for it, but good.
 
For smaller GA stuff, I always liked,the commancie, with that bar it was easy to see 100% what your gear position is.
 
I never really got nervous. Even purposeful belly up wouldn't really scare me. But it is a strange feeling when you are coming to land and for the first time you are not quite sure if the gear is going to hold.
 
Wow, sounds “fun”ish, sorta.
 
Is there a manual way to lower the gear? Can you get someone to look at where the wheels are on a flyby?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Is there a manual way to lower the gear? Can you get someone to look at where the wheels are on a flyby?
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Arrows have a little switch near the flap handle that releases the hydraulic pressure holding the gear up so they can gravity swing into place.
 
genna said:
I am starting my Commercial training and today I flew for the very first time in retract piston plane. Arrow III. Plane isn't what i would call mint, but everything seem to be in order for the mission.

For my first lesson we were going to be practicing gear operation. Well.. We did. Full-on emergency troubleshooting of why we are not getting 3 greens(only front and left). Emergency extension didn't seem to work either. Eventually after 10-15 min of trying things somehow all went green and after verifying with tower, we landed uneventfully.

Fun!
Click to expand...

When I originally started my commercial training several years ago I got about 10 hours in a IV and maybe about 3 hours in a III. I liked them. The III had the manual flaps I think, but it's been so long I can't remember a thing about it. lol.
 
Many aircraft in a training environment are gonna have beat up microswitches and the like. World of what things are vs what things should be type of thing. Part 61 has never struck me as the most MX concscious side of civil aviation,and and I'm being generous in parcing my words about some part 61 outfits. I've had the arrow II for almost five years and zero issues with gear extension. The only time was when the pump gave up the ghost and in the arrow things default to gravity down. Meaning I couldn't retract it. Big whoop.

To my point, you did end up landing uneventfully. It's not as though the gear trunnion was somehow jammed which would be the only way to land gear up in the arrow. The gear has no downlocks in either direction, the lights merely indicate position of the gear in question. The down cycle shuts off upon microswitches depression of all three green, the up cycle shuts off by overpressure switch on the pump; the microswitches that get depressed to turn off the gear in transit light are informational only and don't matter to the pump operation.

You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you extrapolated your experience in the training world with personal ownership, lest the aircraft in question was being purchased immediately from a training fleet. On second thought, actually do keep perpetuating that notion, it does great things for my cost of retract ownership!
 
coloradobluesky said:
Is there a manual way to lower the gear? Can you get someone to look at where the wheels are on a flyby?
Click to expand...
In the arrow the gear system holds the gear “up” with hydraulic pressure. Fail safe is if the system kicks the bucket good old gravity is enough to extend the gear. You force this with a little hydraulic pressure dump switch, let the gear fall down and if needed give things a few horizontal shimmies with the rudder to help lock it in place. Of course with any gear system there’s also the sensors that detect gear down and that could fail leading to an uncomfortable situation where the gear is probably down, but hard to be sure since the indicator lights say otherwise.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Many aircraft in a training environment are gonna have beat up microswitches and the like. World of what things are vs what things should be type of thing. Part 61 has never struck me as the most MX concscious side of civil aviation,and and I'm being generous in parcing my words about some part 61 outfits. I've had the arrow II for almost five years and zero issues with gear extension. The only time was when the pump gave up the ghost and in the arrow things default to gravity down. Meaning I couldn't retract it. Big whoop.

To my point, you did end up landing uneventfully. It's not as though the gear trunnion was somehow jammed which would be the only way to land gear up in the arrow. The gear has no downlocks in either direction, the lights merely indicate position of the gear in question. The down cycle shuts off upon microswitches depression of all three green, the up cycle shuts off by overpressure switch on the pump; the microswitches that get depressed to turn off the gear in transit light are informational only and don't matter to the pump operation.

You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you extrapolated your experience in the training world with personal ownership, lest the aircraft in question was being purchased immediately from a training fleet. On second thought, actually do keep perpetuating that notion, it does great things for my cost of retract ownership!
Click to expand...


No reason to get defensive about it. I fully understand that this is a beat-up trainer. CFI claims(and i believe him) that this is the first time this plane had any gear issue. We actually also had trouble getting gear UP as well. Took couple attempts for the red light to go away. I have no issues with retractable gear planes in principle. It's all about specifics. I also have no expectation to owning any aircraft in any near future.

As far as Arrow. I like it. Very comfortable once you get in. Also very good visibility and seating position for me(i'm short). Very stable plane as well.
 
genna said:
I am starting my Commercial training and today I flew for the very first time in retract piston plane. Arrow III. Plane isn't what i would call mint, but everything seem to be in order for the mission.

For my first lesson we were going to be practicing gear operation. Well.. We did. Full-on emergency troubleshooting of why we are not getting 3 greens(only front and left). Emergency extension didn't seem to work either. Eventually after 10-15 min of trying things somehow all went green and after verifying with tower, we landed uneventfully.

Fun!
Click to expand...

Did it turn out to be an actual gear problem, or an indicator problem? I've had a frayed wire on the micro switch in the gearwell, and a corroded bulb socket indicate a gear problem, but never an actual issue with retract/extend.
 
genna said:
I am starting my Commercial training and today I flew for the very first time in retract piston plane. Arrow III. Plane isn't what i would call mint, but everything seem to be in order for the mission.

For my first lesson we were going to be practicing gear operation. Well.. We did. Full-on emergency troubleshooting of why we are not getting 3 greens(only front and left). Emergency extension didn't seem to work either. Eventually after 10-15 min of trying things somehow all went green and after verifying with tower, we landed uneventfully.

Fun!
Click to expand...
My first time flying the 182RG at Marine City, doing my HP endorsement checkout, we didn't get a green either. CFI thought it was the bulb, but I didn't like the feel of the plane, as if the gear was still partially extended. Ultimately we did a manual gear extension and landed safely. Turned out to be a hydraulic leak and we were within a hair of not being able to extend even manually. (Unlike the Arrow, in Cessnas there is no gravity-powered failsafe; if you're under a certain threshold amount of hydraulic fluid, you're landing gear up - barring improbable heroics like pulling the gear down with a tow bar).

So yes, that kind of thing can definitely happen in training. I'd be interested to learn what they find on the plane you flew (I assume they're looking into the cause, as it sounds like something isn't right there).
 
Used a J-bar m20c for my commercial. Memorized the entire 25 page owners manual over a few beers... gear system conversation on the checkride was awkward it’s so simple...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Never had a problem with the gear in the Arrow I owned in my Travelair the only problem was I couldn’t get the gear up once.
 
GRG55 said:
Did it turn out to be an actual gear problem, or an indicator problem? I've had a frayed wire on the micro switch in the gearwell, and a corroded bulb socket indicate a gear problem, but never an actual issue with retract/extend.
Click to expand...

Don't know. I'll ask the next time
 
Regarding the tower fly-by, what does it accomplish?

A ground observer can't tell if the gear are fully extended/locked. They can only tell if they "appear down". There are only two possible outcomes:

1. The gear "appear down"
2. One, or more, gear aren't down.

How does that change what you will do with an unsafe gear indication? In either case, you're still going to exhaust the alternate gear extension procedures and you're still going to plan your landing based on the possibility that the gear will not hold.

So, what does the fly-by accomplish?
 
Larry in TN said:
Regarding the tower fly-by, what does it accomplish?

A ground observer can't tell if the gear are fully extended/locked. They can only tell if they "appear down". There are only two possible outcomes:

1. The gear "appear down"
2. One, or more, gear aren't down.

How does that change what you will do with an unsafe gear indication? In either case, you're still going to exhaust the alternate gear extension procedures and you're still going to plan your landing based on the possibility that the gear will not hold.

So, what does the fly-by accomplish?
Click to expand...

Probably nothing, but made me feel a little better. By then we had a safe gear indication. We were flying with gear down for a while. This was literally my first ever flight in a small retract plane. As a pilot or a passenger. CFI(he is new CFI) didn't mind.
 
Larry in TN said:
Regarding the tower fly-by, what does it accomplish?

A ground observer can't tell if the gear are fully extended/locked. They can only tell if they "appear down". There are only two possible outcomes:

1. The gear "appear down"
2. One, or more, gear aren't down.

How does that change what you will do with an unsafe gear indication? In either case, you're still going to exhaust the alternate gear extension procedures and you're still going to plan your landing based on the possibility that the gear will not hold.

So, what does the fly-by accomplish?
Click to expand...

There's quite a diffence between none extended, all of them partially extended (or appear down but no way of knowing if locked) and two down + one definitely retracted.

The first is a known and expected belly landing. The second may be uneventful or a sink onto the belly.

The third is the one of most concern if one of the mains is up and you cannot retract the other two gear. An off-runway excursion becomes a greater possibility, the crosswind direction becomes more important, and what you do after touchdown is different as you will want full aileron deflection to try to keep that wing up as long as possible to bleed off as much momentum before things are out of your hands.

A few decades ago I had to deal with a version of this in a Piper Tomahawk which shed one of its allegedly fixed main gear legs immediately after a touch & go. I'll admit I asked the tower to "say again" when they told me what I had left behind on the runway. :eek:
 
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GRG55 said:
The third is the one of most concern if one of the mains is up and you cannot retract the other two gear. An off-runway excursion becomes a greater possibility, the crosswind direction becomes more important, and what you do after touchdown is different as you will want full aileron deflection to try to keep that wing up as long as possible to bleed off as much momentum before things are out of your hands.
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It's pretty easy to tell if none of them have left the wheel wells without any indicators or fly-bys.

Watch some YouTube videos of gear up, and partial-gear up landings of GA airplanes. See what happens.
 
A couple people posted that gravity swings the Arrow's gear down. I'm not sure that is correct.

I thought the gear was spring loaded to down, and the hydraulic system forces the gear to up against the spring load. Thus dumping the hydraulic pressure allows the springs to push the gear down.

Here's a video.

Maybe @Tom-D is back so he can correct me.
 
rbridges said:
I've got the johnson bar. Gotta love its simplicity. Downside is no emergency plan B. You're landing on the belly if it fails. lol
Click to expand...
Mind you, the Mooney Johnson Bar gear is not without its own problems. You don't get that thing fully locked up into the panel and it can retract on you under load.

The Navion gear, much like the Arrow will freefall in place. The emergency extension on the Navion is just a bigger handle.
 
I remember one of the flights in an Arrow when I was getting my complex endorsement. The CFI told me to configure for slow flight. Reduced power, dropped the gear (at least, I set the switch to "down") and as we slowed down we looked at each other and neither of us had felt the gear do down in the rudder pedals (you know that feeling). No green lights. Dug out the checklist, went to the emergency section and the first step was to check a couple circuit breakers. Sure enough, a 5 amp breaker had popped. Pushed it in and the gear went down. We flew it home with the gear down, let the mechanic figure out why the breaker had popped. He never did, and it never popped again. Better to fly home with the gear already down than to potentially create a real emergency. We didn't need the gravity assist emergency extension, although we did demonstrate it later. The Arrow is dirt simple when it comes to the folding gear.

Have fun!
 
flyingron said:
Mind you, the Mooney Johnson Bar gear is not without its own problems. You don't get that thing fully locked up into the panel and it can retract on you under load.

The Navion gear, much like the Arrow will freefall in place. The emergency extension on the Navion is just a bigger handle.
Click to expand...
You gotta be pretty dense to not get the Johnson bar in the gear down position.
 
Paulie said:
You gotta be pretty dense to not get the Johnson bar in the gear down position.
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I don't know why you say that. People manage to land gear up with more obvious indicators of the gear being locked. The difference between the lever being forward and being locked forward is noting an eighth of an inch clearance between the sliding part of the handle and the panel.
 
flyingron said:
I don't know why you say that. People manage to land gear up with more obvious indicators of the gear being locked. The difference between the lever being forward and being locked forward is noting an eighth of an inch clearance between the sliding part of the handle and the panel.
Click to expand...
True but the lock button on the side indicates that it is locked as well as yanking on it to assure it's in locked position. I agree that it is amazing how people will ignore obvious indications that the gear is not fully down or not down at all. There's a video of two guys on approach with the horn screaming. Belly landing. I don't buy the "I couldn't hear it through my headset" excuse, I probably check the gear 10 times after I extend it. Paranoid.
 
My flight instructor was teaching a student who was flying down final with the horn beeping. He suggested to her that if she advanced the throttle slightly that noise would stop. Without even thinking, the student advanced the throttle.
 
flyingron said:
Mind you, the Mooney Johnson Bar gear is not without its own problems. You don't get that thing fully locked up into the panel and it can retract on you under load.

The Navion gear, much like the Arrow will freefall in place. The emergency extension on the Navion is just a bigger handle.
Click to expand...
So, Uh, which Johnson is bigger?
 
i had to blow the gear down in a C-414 once. Man, when I pulled the handle I thought the entire bottom of the plane blew off....

In Alaska I landed more than once in the Navajo with one gear down and locked light not illuminating. Each and every time it was due to mud getting on the micro switch not allowing the light to come on.

A little nerve wracking to land with a gear light not on.
 
azure said:
My first time flying the 182RG at Marine City, doing my HP endorsement checkout, we didn't get a green either. CFI thought it was the bulb, but I didn't like the feel of the plane, as if the gear was still partially extended. Ultimately we did a manual gear extension and landed safely. Turned out to be a hydraulic leak and we were within a hair of not being able to extend even manually. (Unlike the Arrow, in Cessnas there is no gravity-powered failsafe; if you're under a certain threshold amount of hydraulic fluid, you're landing gear up - barring improbable heroics like pulling the gear down with a tow bar).

So yes, that kind of thing can definitely happen in training. I'd be interested to learn what they find on the plane you flew (I assume they're looking into the cause, as it sounds like something isn't right there).
Click to expand...
There was a 'lost all the juice because of a leak' incident years ago. A C210 I think it was. The master cylinder is right there in the floor between the seats. Pilot is chatting with the mechanic on the ground who comes up with an idea. He asks the pilot how much coffee he had before the flight. Yup, he pizzed into the Master Cylinder resevoir which was enough to get one cycle and the gear down. Actually pizzed into something else and poured it in if I remember the story right.
 
luvflyin said:
There was a 'lost all the juice because of a leak' incident years ago. A C210 I think it was. The master cylinder is right there in the floor between the seats. Pilot is chatting with the mechanic on the ground who comes up with an idea. He asks the pilot how much coffee he had before the flight. Yup, he pizzed into the Master Cylinder resevoir which was enough to get one cycle and the gear down. Actually pizzed into something else and poured it in if I remember the story right.
Click to expand...
Talk about desperation! :yikes: I'm not sure whether that is possible in the 177RG... pretty sure the master reservoir is in the tailcone, and the smaller cylinders up front only feed the brakes. I could have that wrong though.
 
luvflyin said:
There was a 'lost all the juice because of a leak' incident years ago. A C210 I think it was. The master cylinder is right there in the floor between the seats. Pilot is chatting with the mechanic on the ground who comes up with an idea. He asks the pilot how much coffee he had before the flight. Yup, he pizzed into the Master Cylinder resevoir which was enough to get one cycle and the gear down. Actually pizzed into something else and poured it in if I remember the story right.
Click to expand...
Does the maintenance manual have a flush procedure? :eek:
 
flyingron said:
I don't know why you say that. People manage to land gear up with more obvious indicators of the gear being locked. The difference between the lever being forward and being locked forward is noting an eighth of an inch clearance between the sliding part of the handle and the panel.
Click to expand...

You have to be a special kind of stupid not to get the J-bar locked in a Mooney. There have been instances, though, of the receptacle becoming too worn and releasing under load. I think that’s what happened to the guy who geared up his Mooney departing from Gaston’s.

Even though the bar is a big thing visually people forget it. People are distractable animals and in a pinch can forget anything.
 
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