After PPL, then what, rental is expensive

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Mustang67ford

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Mustang67ford
I have been strongly debating with myself on pursuing my PPL. My main holdup is what to do once I get it. I hqve the funds to get my PPL, but after that, I would have to rent a plane to fly. Rental is $150 an hour. When I went on my discovery 1/2 hr flight, we were only actually in the air a few minute. Most time was spent Idling and taxiing. So for an hours rental, I would probably only get like 40 minutes in the air which seems like barely enough to take off, make a circle and land. I could probably only afford to fly 1 hr a month. I also have to travel about 1 hr to get to the airport. I guess, I am struggling with this a little. Anybody else have the same debate, am I missing something. Am I really doing this to have the ability to make a circle in the air once a month?
 
Mustang67ford said:
I have been strongly debating with myself on pursuing my PPL. My main holdup is what to do once I get it. I hqve the funds to get my PPL, but after that, I would have to rent a plane to fly. Rental is $150 an hour. When I went on my discovery 1/2 hr flight, we were only actually in the air a few minute. Most time was spent Idling and taxiing. So for an hours rental, I would probably only get like 40 minutes in the air which seems like barely enough to take off, make a circle and land. I could probably only afford to fly 1 hr a month. I also have to travel about 1 hr to get to the airport. I guess, I am struggling with this a little. Anybody else have the same debate, am I missing something. Am I really doing this to have the ability to make a circle in the air once a month?
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Save your money. Buy a part 103 ultralight. Fly license free from home.
 
Yeah, that is the same conundrum many people face. I would suggest you look into Pt 103 Ultralight aviation, particularly I like the Eipper Quicksilver line of products. Eipper was one of the very early manufacturers of ultralights and makes a high quality product. It's hard to have more fun than with an MX on amphib floats.

You really can't aviate any cheaper except maybe powered parachute.

If you don't have a reason for flying, it's really hard to justify Pt. 91 level aviation. To go up in a 152 for one flight a month is hardly worth the effort, much less the cost of getting the license. Pt 103 however allows a lot more flying for those $$$.
 
Is the airport controlled?
I fly out of a class E and from engine start to take-off is about 5 minutes. (I prepare everything so i dont have to waste time trying to organize myself with the engine running)
What are your goals with your PPL?
What airplane is it?
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Is the airport controlled?
I fly out of a class E and from engine start to take-off is about 5 minutes. (I prepare everything so i dont have to waste time trying to organize myself with the engine running)
What are your goals with your PPL?
What airplane is it?
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That's just it, the only defined goal he has is to learn to fly, beyond that nothing. He's actually quite typical in those regards. I would hazard most people quit flying after Solo, at that point you have no more to prove to being able to pilot. A lot more quit shortly after PP. If you don't have significant funds to expend on flying, you aren't going to be having enough fun /$$$.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Is the airport controlled?
I fly out of a class E and from engine start to take-off is about 5 minutes. (I prepare everything so i dont have to waste time trying to organize myself with the engine running)
What are your goals with your PPL?
What airplane is it?
Click to expand...

The plane will be at a controlled airport. There is a closer non-controlled airport but CFI is changing airports. My goal was to get my PPL so I could simply fly as a hobby. Maybe fly to a different airport, take friends for rides to help split costs, etc, but it seems like I would barely get in the air and situated let alone be able to fly over checkpoints to another airport. It is a beechcraft sundowner I would be learning on and renting. My question for you, is if you are in the air in only 5 minutes, for a 1 hour flight rental, how far do you really get to go?

Also, ultralites are not for me.
 
Even when I'm taking my sweet time with complex navigation, IFR release and the whole bit, I'm still off the ground in 15-20 minutes after engine start.

Pattern and landing is 5 minutes or so.

How does this get from 1 hour to 5 minutes?

In practice, a 50 mile cross country costs me about an hour Hobbs time when you count all the overheads.
 
Mustang67ford said:
The plane will be at a controlled airport. There is a closer non-controlled airport but CFI is changing airports. My goal was to get my PPL so I could simply fly as a hobby. Maybe fly to a different airport, take friends for rides to help split costs, etc, but it seems like I would barely get in the air and situated let alone be able to fly over checkpoints to another airport. It is a beechcraft sundowner I would be learning on and renting. My question for you, is if you are in the air in only 5 minutes, for a 1 hour flight rental, how far do you really get to go?

Also, ultralites are not for me.
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Not far. Your monthly run will need to be to an airport within 40 miles or so in a Sundowner.

For Pt 91 flying, about the all around lowest cost way in is through a Cessna 150, and partner up with two or three (up to 5 on a standard rate insurance policy) other guys who also want to fly as a hobby. Piper Tomahawk is another good choice.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
Is the airport controlled?
I fly out of a class E and from engine start to take-off is about 5 minutes. (I prepare everything so i dont have to waste time trying to organize myself with the engine running)
What are your goals with your PPL?
What airplane is it?
Click to expand...
Ground time should only be dependant on engine temperatures, not organization.
 
Mustang67ford said:
The plane will be at a controlled airport. There is a closer non-controlled airport but CFI is changing airports. My goal was to get my PPL so I could simply fly as a hobby. Maybe fly to a different airport, take friends for rides to help split costs, etc, but it seems like I would barely get in the air and situated let alone be able to fly over checkpoints to another airport. It is a beechcraft sundowner I would be learning on and renting. My question for you, is if you are in the air in only 5 minutes, for a 1 hour flight rental, how far do you really get to go?

Also, ultralites are not for me.
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With 1 hour rental, Assuming 115kt AVERAGE (take into consideration climb-out) You could go on a 45nm-50nm trip, 90nm-100nm round trip.
If you have buddies that are willing to split the costs, then it obviously becomes cheaper. Ask them to pay for half, if they think its too much just ask them for whatever they can help with.. after-all, youre the one that will log the hours and get the most enjoyment out of it.
To have a decent flight thats not just "around the corner", i'd say 2 hour rental would be something reasonable.

Can you explain what takes 20 minutes on the ground with the engine running?
 
MarcoDA40 said:
With 1 hour rental, Assuming 115kt AVERAGE (take into consideration climb-out) You could go on a 45nm-50nm trip, 90nm-100nm round trip.
If you have buddies that are willing to split the costs, then it obviously becomes cheaper. Ask them to pay for half, if they think its too much just ask them for whatever they can help with.. after-all, youre the one that will log the hours and get the most enjoyment out of it.
To have a decent flight thats not just "around the corner", i'd say 2 hour rental would be something reasonable.

Can you explain what takes 20 minutes on the ground with the engine running?
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:popcorn: This should be interesting to see what happens with Ron gone.
 
If your flying budget after your license is 150 per month, flying is probably not for you. I cant thing of hardly any flying you can do for that AND stay proficient. However, if you can squeeze a few more dollars out of your budget, say 500 per month, you are in a different place.

ETA, if you think flying is expensive, try owning a boat
 
so, yeah........aviation is 'spensive, but let me try to address a few things. first, don't rule out 'flying around in a circle' as not being fun, it's still fun, but yeah, you find places to fly go. I have been splitting flights with another pilot that brings the cost down, but our typical flight is to grab food somewhere. taking passengers up for their first flight, maybe over their house or around downtown never gets old. a one hour flight to the beach instead of a 3.5 hour drive really never gets old. but yes, it is expensive.
I look at it this way.....I don't spend money on things that a lot of other people spend money on, pricey electronics, expensive cars, hookers and blow, no wait, I do spend money there, just not on flying days, but yeah, it gets expensive. if you are working out a realistic budget, and you honestly feel that you could only fly 1 hour a month, I'm just not sure that's enough to keep you proficient and SAFE. not saying it can't be done, but it's not ideal.
as for renting, I mean, a lot of us rent. it sux, it has it's challenges, but right now it's the best option I have.
flying is expensive, but like anything in life, if you want it bad enough, you make sacrifices elsewhere so you can make it happen. and if it turns out that you just can't make it happen, start hanging around your local airport and get some FREE flights from other pilots who wouldn't even hesitate to bring you up. speaking of that, where are you located?

ok, good luck!
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Ground time should only be dependant on engine temperatures, not organization.
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I agree, but luckily I've never had anything not register "in the green" by the time I finish my run-up, that includes winter flying. I've also seen pilots idling the engine while still looking at charts, I'm in no way at all saying that is a bad thing, but for me, I cant afford to waste hobbs time on the ground. Once I jump in, its time to go.
 
Personally I love to fly. I don't care if it's in someone else's plane, I have several pilot friends that like someone to go with them and I ALWAYS make myself available. I volunteer at a warplane museum and ride there whenever I can. Hec I even like flying commercial. If it gets me off the ground and it is relatively safe I am in.

In an hour you can do 9 or so touch and goes (uncontrolled). You can fly to an airport 30-40 miles away and back maybe for a fly in breakfast. Fly to an airshow. Giving a 20 minute ride to folks new to general aviation is plenty long enough for most people. Lots of things to do. Personally I love just working in the pattern.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
I agree, but luckily I've never had anything not register "in the green" by the time I finish my run-up, that includes winter flying. I've also seen pilots idling the engine while still looking at charts, I'm in no way at all saying that is a bad thing, but for me, I cant afford to waste hobbs time on the ground. Once I jump in, its time to go.
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The ***** is once you start going IFR, those are the guys you see idling while they program their flight plan into their box. Luckily that is about to go away with Garmin opening up the Flight Stream 210 to Foreflight. With that you can fire up and just upload it all in a moment after you start up.
 
Henning said:
The ***** is once you start going IFR, those are the guys you see idling while they program their flight plan into their box. Luckily that is about to go away with Garmin opening up the Flight Stream 210 to Foreflight. With that you can fire up and just upload it all in a moment after you start up.
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Then you hear the beloved statement:

"Hold for IFR release expect 1 5 minute delay."
 
Henning said:
The ***** is once you start going IFR, those are the guys you see idling while they program their flight plan into their box. Luckily that is about to go away with Garmin opening up the Flight Stream 210 to Foreflight. With that you can fire up and just upload it all in a moment after you start up.
Click to expand...

I've never saw the need, nor did I teach the practice of, loading the entire route into the GPS before take off. Generally the first three fixes are sufficient to get you into cruise. At that point, once things are settled, you can add the rest. Or enter to re-route that ATC assigned since you checked in on the approach frequency.
 
Brad Z said:
I've never saw the need, nor did I teach the practice of, loading the entire route into the GPS before take off. Generally the first three fixes are sufficient to get you into cruise. At that point, once things are settled, you can add the rest. Or enter to re-route that ATC assigned since you checked in on the approach frequency.
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It's becoming irrelevant now that you can rubber band in a clearance ammenment, even enter a V-Airway if you want.

I hate programming a 430 enroute.
 
Brad Z said:
I've never saw the need, nor did I teach the practice of, loading the entire route into the GPS before take off. Generally the first three fixes are sufficient to get you into cruise. At that point, once things are settled, you can add the rest. Or enter to re-route that ATC assigned since you checked in on the approach frequency.
Click to expand...

If I'm going to hand fly in IMC (or under the hood), I don't want to be screwing with the $@#$$#@%@#^%&@#$ 430 while trying to keep the blue side up at the same time, if I can help it.
 
yeah, IFR and programming a 430 is exactly what this thread is about. very helpful info to the OP, I'm sure.
 
I got my PPL in 2013 not really knowing what kind of flying I will be doing (the “then what?” question). Getting the license was a huge accomplishment in itself but not enough to justify spending 10K for something that’s not useful. My flying budget is limited as well.

Nonetheless, over time my “then what” question has resolved itself through …

- Short sight-seeing over San Diego and the surrounding areas, -- some pax will offer to contribute to costs and some won’t. A bay tour from MYF or SEE will put about 35 to 45 minutes on the hobbs
- Solo patterns (night/day, w/ simulated engine-out, short approach, etc) for proficiency
- Aerial photography flights (non-commercial)
- About 45 hours of cross-country (to visit friends, go camping, weekend escapes, etc.), some of them with friends who offered to pay their share
- Pilots & Paws flights, those serve a great purpose, and come tax time you get 1/3 of the cost back
- Getting checked out in different planes at airports in different parts of the country

As for cost, I rent from a great club with a big fleet of about 70 planes and relatively low prices (between $95.00 and $110.00 for most our C-172s or PA28s). But I don’t figure hourly cost -- especially for cross-countries -- but rather COST/MILE ($ divided by TAS), which gives me a better picture of what a trip will cost and which plane to pick for the mission. Hence our C-150 that rents for $89.00 but only goes 80kn costs more than a PA28 that rents for $105.00 and goes 120kn.

I don’t know your situation but in my case I’ve always wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid. There have been moments when I asked your question (“then what”) but I figured it out eventually.

Support from family and friends is a great motivator too. My wife fully supports my flying habit and she really likes to fly with me so that is a big plus.

I would suggest that you find a less expensive plane ($150.00 for a Sundowner seems steep to me) and find a way to train at the closer, non-towered airport. Don’t know how attached you are to your prospective CFI but maybe find a different one. Get started at least and see how you like it and if you can figure out the “then what.”

My budget isn’t huge either but I do try to go fly at least twice a month to stay proficient. If you're able to do that much, I think you have a good shot.
 
eman1200 said:
yeah, IFR and programming a 430 is exactly what this thread is about. very helpful info to the OP, I'm sure.
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Actually, it is, because it demonstrates the future he is curious about.:lol:

Seriously, $150 month barely gets much flying in on a Flybaby, especially when you have to fix things.

The reality is the OP has been told everything he needs to know about his question, the reality is he will quit flying. Not to say don't go ahead and solo, or even get the PP, but don't expect to continue flying on a budget of $150 a month, it's just not going to happen if you don't already have a plan for aviation.
 
Mustang67ford said:
I have been strongly debating with myself on pursuing my PPL. My main holdup is what to do once I get it. I hqve the funds to get my PPL, but after that, I would have to rent a plane to fly. Rental is $150 an hour. When I went on my discovery 1/2 hr flight, we were only actually in the air a few minute. Most time was spent Idling and taxiing. So for an hours rental, I would probably only get like 40 minutes in the air which seems like barely enough to take off, make a circle and land. I could probably only afford to fly 1 hr a month. I also have to travel about 1 hr to get to the airport. I guess, I am struggling with this a little. Anybody else have the same debate, am I missing something. Am I really doing this to have the ability to make a circle in the air once a month?
Click to expand...

My drive is 1 hour each way. I fly about 1.0 - 2.0 hours per month average right now. I also take my wife on a cross country trip at least once per year. You either love it or you don't.

Flight clubs and soaring clubs (gliders) tend to make things less expensive. I'm paying ~$125 per hour.
 
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Mustang67ford said:
am I missing something
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No, you're not missing anything. Flying is expensive. You need to seriously consider what you would be doing with the PPL once you're finished. Flying is a perishable skill. If you don't do it regularly, you're going to get rusty, and therefore less safe.
 
Go ahead and get a solo done, then see where you stand and go from there. The future is not fixed, and solo is a worthy goal for just the education and experience of overall life.
 
Mustang67ford said:
Also, ultralites are not for me.
Click to expand...

What is? Hamburger runs, traveling, Giving rides, doing a few laps around the pattern, gliders, aerobatics, formation, bush flying, seaplanes, time building, flying job, ratings collection, flight instructing? No goals or real areas of interest?
 
I'm not rolling in money... but I've found a great club... $50/mo dues $105/hr TACH //nice 81 Skyhawk... upgrades in the wind for August will make it $75/mo and $110/hr TACH... maybe a little more... Anyone near Salisbury, NC...we are looking for new members...
 
FlySince9 said:
I'm not rolling in money... but I've found a great club... $50/mo dues $105/hr TACH //nice 81 Skyhawk... upgrades in the wind for August will make it $75/mo and $110/hr TACH... maybe a little more... Anyone near Salisbury, NC...we are looking for new members...
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Again, $150 buys you one hour a month.
 
Henning said:
Again, $150 buys you one hour a month.
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Yep... But I don't think it gets much more reasonable without venturing into ultralight stuff; which I'm not interested in doing... Plus... I know how well the airplane is maintained, all the people who fly it, annnnd its available, pretty much, anytime I want it...
 
Try to save up some money before you start training. Try to find the cheapest airplane possible and find an independent CFI that you can barter with.
 
Mustang67,
I think you're getting some good advice here. Get some hours in and see if your 'then what' answer materializes. I think a big part of your problem, other than your budget, was that you took a 30 minute discovery flight. 10 minutes on the ground would be 1/3 of your time. When I went to book my discovery flight, the instructor said I should do an hour, because at 30 minutes I wouldn't have time to get anything out of it, and I think he was right. I don't really even figure out time on the ground because when I'm sitting in the plane, I'm learning something, its all part of the process, I always feel busy doing something.
 
FlySince9 said:
I'm not rolling in money... but I've found a great club... $50/mo dues $105/hr TACH //nice 81 Skyhawk... upgrades in the wind for August will make it $75/mo and $110/hr TACH... maybe a little more... Anyone near Salisbury, NC...we are looking for new members...
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I'm just east of you over at Sanford, KTTA :(
 
MAKG1 said:
Even when I'm taking my sweet time with complex navigation, IFR release and the whole bit, I'm still off the ground in 15-20 minutes after engine start.

Pattern and landing is 5 minutes or so.

How does this get from 1 hour to 5 minutes?

In practice, a 50 mile cross country costs me about an hour Hobbs time when you count all the overheads.
Click to expand...

I meant 50 minutes.
 
Henning said:
Not far. Your monthly run will need to be to an airport within 40 miles or so in a Sundowner.

For Pt 91 flying, about the all around lowest cost way in is through a Cessna 150, and partner up with two or three (up to 5 on a standard rate insurance policy) other guys who also want to fly as a hobby. Piper Tomahawk is another good choice.
Click to expand...

Can you further explain this? Maybe I am having trouble understanding how far you really can go. Maybe 40 miles gets you a lot further than I am thinking...
 
Mustang67ford said:
Can you further explain this? Maybe I am having trouble understanding how far you really can go. Maybe 40 miles gets you a lot further than I am thinking...
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Well, you have an hour at 105kts or so. Figure you've got 5 minutes at the airport at each end minimum, so you have 50 minutes for cruise, 25 out, 25 back average unless the wind screws you and you have a headwind both directs. It happens... 25 minutes at 105 is 43 miles.

As for how far that gets you, that depends on what's around you and how many places to land there are in that radius. Look on a chart for where you are for the answer to that.
 
I didn't start having my most fun flying until finding time was more of an issue than cost. If I were you I would find a cheaper than $150 a hour plane because that is a ton for basic training, you don't need a glass panel or even a gps for training.
 
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