James331
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Because there are all those people who became world famous air show pilots because they sucked at flying lol
Aerobatic flight schools in FL - opinions?
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Because there are all those people who became world famous air show pilots because they sucked at flying lol
You keep doing the same thing-- making straw man arguments. I'm not saying that they sucked at flying. I am saying that the fact that they are great a flying at aerobatic shows does not necessarily mean that they are good instructors, particularly for someone who does not even have the fundamentals down.
James331
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And getting instruction from someone who isn't very good isn't helpful ether, I'd rather take my chances for my dollar with someone who at least has proven they know what they are doing and are damn good at it.
You don't need decades of experience in a field to state the obvious. Experience matters
You don't have the first clue what it means to be "good".
Not for you lol
James331
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Maybe we have different definitions of the word, but being world renowned, having your talents recognized by all the peer groups that recognize said talents, I'd call that "good"
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Never seen Patty or Sean Tucker recognized "by all the peer groups" for being great aerobatic instructors. Not saying they are not though. Being an ignoramus must be a sport for you. Keep digging that hole.
Or maybe you could have just said that nobody's any good unless James331 the internet badass non acro guy has heard of you. That would sum up it up pretty well. LMFAO
James331
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Yeah it's not like the smithsonianin has any of their planes hung up, or the national aviation hall of fame inducted them, or that they have made a good career doing aerobatics and became nearly a household name in aviation....
Maciej
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Yup, you definitely don't have any aerobatic experience.
Side note, I don't think I'm good at all and will never stop learning, but the goal for me is to compete in unlimited in the next three years. And this is what I do in my spare time below, you know, as opposed to spending time on a forum trying to spin things while hypothesizing about something I have zero experience about and pretending to be a subject matter expert.
James331
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You know you had to type on a forum to post that right?
And you're right, my flying just consists of backcountry and saving lives flying medevac, lest I try to compare to a rich hobbyist and his expensive toy.
And aerobatics must be the only thing on earth where experience and proven skill doesn't matter, because if that's true we really have entered the aviation/educational version of
Maciej
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You're right, so let's consider some other things that require the individual to actually work on things on their own in order to become skilled:
- Traditional sports; are you suggesting that experienced professionals with proven skill will immediately aid someone in becoming adept at the activity in question?
- Programming; are you suggesting that an experienced professional with proven skill will be able to automatically teach someone how to be a qualified coder without them spending time on their own to learn the basics etc?
- Since we're on the topic of aviation, let's use helicopters as an example; do you think that with basic fundamental introductory training that anyone will be able to pick up on flying helicopters on their own without having to practice it themselves first before they can truly comprehend the input that's being provided to them without understanding the basic fundamental aspects of the controls and how they affect the aircraft?
The best part of all of this is that based on your post history I'm going to guess that you're roughly my age, plus or minus five years. And I'm not rich in the least bit, I just happen to spend my money on the things I'm most passionate about. The point is that in the past four (4) years, you've spent your time on this forum composing just a hair over sixteen thousand (16,000+) posts, and in all of that time it's hilarious to know how much of the things you post about you have no clue about in real life, you're just a spectator that hasn't done the things.
Before you make a condescending remark about someone's financial position, make some sort of a suggestion to someone about something you don't have the slightest clue about, take a moment to realize that your opinion can cost other people money that can be better spent elsewhere.
At the end of the day you lack even the most basic reading comprehension, the original poster said that he'd like to go to an aerobatic school this winter and his goal is to get time in a Pitts, Patty doesn't even have a Pitts for teaching. Then you claim that the airframe doesn't matter as much as the instructor which clearly illustrates the fact you have no clue what on earth you're talking about, based on your hypothesis anyone can do an acro course in Patty's Decathlon and jump into a Pitts, and if that was the case it's very likely you'd be the cause of someone getting into a major accident.
As a side note, go call Patty or Sean and tell them you want to do acro in that C182 you mention so they can laugh and hang up on you.
James331
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Roger that....soooooo a experienced aerobatic instructor isn't that much of a factor in seeking a CFI for instruction, but you try to validate you opinion over mine by citing your....experience?
Maciej
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Ahhh, so now it's just an experienced aerobatic instructor... Not the original world class aerobatic competitor and airshow pilot anymore?
My opinion is more qualified than yours because I actually fly aerobatics, I've been where the OP is, I've asked the same questions, I've evolved from there. More appropriately, the people you reference like Patty for example, are people that I socialize with and visit every few months, in addition to the fact that I spend most of my time socializing with the people you're alluding to that are the experienced aerobatic instructors.
The most ironic part is that you're unaware of the fact that anything above mid level intermediate aerobatics you don't even have an instructor with you in the plane because it throws off execution of maneuvers, instead they're sitting in a lawn chair observing you in the aerobatic box and coaching you from there.
Means quite a lot to me, if you're not exceptional at it yourself why would I pay you to teach me when there is someone for about the same price in about the same area who is, and not just exceptional but literally a legend?
I'm sure he's a safe and good pilot, but I wouldn't hold Steve the CFI on the same level as Patty Wagstaff, he's not even in the same realm, I mean we're talking a woman who's in the national aviation hall of fame, and has one of her planes hanging in the smithsonian!
If you're talking a biplane aerobatic legend on par with Wagstaff that would more be someone like Sean Tucker who has a school on the other coast in CA, also in the national aviation hall of fame, also a featured pilot at more than a few Reno air races, etc.
I'm open about my only biplane time being in a AG cat, but I really don't think it's that different having another wing, the aerobatic fundamentals are going to be 98% the same regardless of the airframe, so why not be taught by one of the greats and have some legendary ink in your log book?
James331
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Quit reading into it, it's experienced across the board.
Between you, who doesn't support your lifestyle as a aerobatic pilot, who isn't headlining Reno, isn't in the aviation hall of fame, vs Watstaff who does and is, I'd rather take my chances on her being a chitty CFI than you being anything other than someone with enough money and freetime to compete in a plane you had to buy yourself.
Maciej
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As a side note, casting aside people who have no real experience and base their posts in pure speculation...
I'd go with Bill Finigan and his Pitts, world class pilot, has more hours in a Pitts than James' posts on this forum if I recall, and he's the best person on the east coast to teach you how to fly a Pitts and have that experience carry over into every other single aircraft you'll ever fly.
I'd go with Bill Finigan and his Pitts, world class pilot, has more hours in a Pitts than James' posts on this forum if I recall, and he's the best person on the east coast to teach you how to fly a Pitts and have that experience carry over into every other single aircraft you'll ever fly.
Maciej
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This is hilarious, you're clearly an idiot. You can't even stick to the same points you're arguing.
Patty is a remarkable instructor, the point that keeps getting made is the fact that a newbie in aerobatics can't benefit from her observations if you don't understand the fundamental aspects of flying aerobatics.
Stop while you're ahead. It's just embarrassing.
James331
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I'm hitting on different points because of all the idocracy you're spewing, experience doesn't matter? World renound aerobatic pilots are just as good as a instructor rich guy and his toy who fancies himself a aerobatic pilot?
That when you can fly with a legend for the same price as someone no one knows, you should go with someone no one knows?
Are you making these points because you're a rich guy who bought a extra and got his CFI and takes offense when I say people like you are not a good deal when you can get a real professional for the same price?
Talk to me when sponsors buy you a extra.
Maciej
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LOL, reading comprehension fail again. You don't know a single thing about Patty or how she's gotten to where she is.
I'm a hobbyist who understands the nuance behind flying aerobatics and the path it takes to get to unlimited level, you're a keyboard warrior with zero experience that thinks he's intelligent and qualified to make suggestions to people on an internet forum.
The best part of this all is that you think you're credible because people don't challenge you, but it's not that you're right, it's just because people rather get waterboarded than have to deal with your ineptitude.
Maciej
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You're not hitting on different points, you keep trying to make the same one and tailoring it to your opinion of the quarter hour.
Just stop while you're ahead, you clearly can't comprehend the argument that's being made because you don't have any idea what you're talking about. For the record, it's abundantly clear to me we're not the same age, I thought that your behavior would be indicative of a millennial but clearly you're just immature and ignorant. I'm thirty years old, have had multiple businesses of my own that funded my Extra, and I work in enterprise IT in infrastructure architecture. I'm not a rich guy, I'm a person that's truly passionate about my hobby and I can speak to it because I know the real professionals in this realm, like Patty, amongst a number of other world class aerobatic pilots that you've mentioned.
Just let it go, it's reaching pathetic levels.
James331
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Not quite, it's because I work in this industry, it's because I've CFIed a metric chit ton of people, because I am held to a higher standard than a debutant with his personal plane, you're a tourist, like the little Asian guy with the huge expensive camera taking photos of walls and chewing gum in NYC who got a few likes on Facebook, you're not a world renound unlimited pilot, so don't say you know all about it, if I went to the stands at Reno or a redbull what percentage would know your name?
Maciej
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Side note, the Extra she flies right now isn't even hers. But you clearly knew that.
Maciej
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The most hilarious part is that you're not even talking the same sport, Reno and Redbull aren't aerobatics, they're air race. And Patty doesn't participate in either.
For the record, five of the Red Bull Air Race pilots though.
James331
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How many people at redbull would know Hoover?
Guess what James - the aerobatic community is very small and we know who the great instructors are. They are recommended in this thread. Nobody has yet recommended some rando CFI with a plane who has no respect in the aerobatic community. One thing is for sure, if you and your attitude ever tried to be a player in the acro community, your ass would be laughed right out of it. It's too small for clowns like you.
Maciej
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Is it inappropriate to think that I would actually wish he was? The beating would be hilarious.
James331
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So for the same price youd go with with rich boy in his extra over Wagstaff or Tucker? That's the logic sales people have wet dreams over.
Maciej
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Ah, we've approached the point where you're being condescending to someone because they're more successful than you and that can clearly articulate their thoughts in a logical and cohesive fashion, I love this part.
James331
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Oh man, I've hit a nerve with the hobby aerobatic guys on here, just because I said why not pay the same and have someone successful at said flying CFI you.
It's like when you don't act in amazement of the white balance and whatever of your neighborhood "prosumer" photographer lol
Whatever, y'all can come unglued if you like, I'll still have breakfast tomorrow
It's like when you don't act in amazement of the white balance and whatever of your neighborhood "prosumer" photographer lol
Whatever, y'all can come unglued if you like, I'll still have breakfast tomorrow
Maciej
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And again, no, don't back away from your original hypothesis there buddy, you said a world class person, not a successful person. There's a clear distinction.
For the record, you didn't hit a nerve with the hobby aerobatic guys, you hit a nerve with the people that possess an IQ above room temperature guys, because your idiocy and flawed logic could literally cost someone their life one day.
Rephrase the above post in English please LOL
Maciej
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I think he needs to have someone successful at being literate and coherent do that for him.
James331
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Oh you two
Look, to make it clear
Guy wanted some aerobatic instruction in FL, Wagstaff happens to have her school there, I said it would be a great opportunity to get both your aerobatic intro and also fly with one of the few greats of aviation while you have a chance.
Next all the hobby guys get on here and say flying with their buddy who bought a Pitts/extra/whatever and got some participation trophies would be the same as the OP couldnt possibly assimilate all of Wagstaffs skill, this is true... to a point.
However my point of contention, especially after seeing a ton of these retired airline or computer types (for whatever reason those two groups seemed the most prevalent) who go out and buy a expensive aerobatic plane, and now are charging Wagstaff rates to teach people even though their aerobatic resume is tiny to non existent.
Can these hobbiest types teach a basic intro to aerobatics, sure, but the issue is many of them change damn near the same as Wagstaff, and if the price point is the same, you're just not getting as good a value for your dollar flying with some "prosumer" aerobatic pilot.
Just looking back at when I got my CFI, I produced a good pilot, my students had fun, were safe pilots and we all got along great, that said comparing me now, with thousands and thousands more hours, way more overall experience and odd experiences, having done a good variety of flying, for the same price point I'd pick current me over old me all day, not that old me couldn't produce a great PPL/CPL or whatever, but if it's the same price point why not get more for your money? Plus there are the little tricks, the little nuances you pick up with experience, and if just for those, for about the same price point, why the hell not get the better pilot/CFI?
I mean with the price being close to the same, why would anyone fly with say Shaun over Patty?
Look, to make it clear
Guy wanted some aerobatic instruction in FL, Wagstaff happens to have her school there, I said it would be a great opportunity to get both your aerobatic intro and also fly with one of the few greats of aviation while you have a chance.
Next all the hobby guys get on here and say flying with their buddy who bought a Pitts/extra/whatever and got some participation trophies would be the same as the OP couldnt possibly assimilate all of Wagstaffs skill, this is true... to a point.
However my point of contention, especially after seeing a ton of these retired airline or computer types (for whatever reason those two groups seemed the most prevalent) who go out and buy a expensive aerobatic plane, and now are charging Wagstaff rates to teach people even though their aerobatic resume is tiny to non existent.
Can these hobbiest types teach a basic intro to aerobatics, sure, but the issue is many of them change damn near the same as Wagstaff, and if the price point is the same, you're just not getting as good a value for your dollar flying with some "prosumer" aerobatic pilot.
Just looking back at when I got my CFI, I produced a good pilot, my students had fun, were safe pilots and we all got along great, that said comparing me now, with thousands and thousands more hours, way more overall experience and odd experiences, having done a good variety of flying, for the same price point I'd pick current me over old me all day, not that old me couldn't produce a great PPL/CPL or whatever, but if it's the same price point why not get more for your money? Plus there are the little tricks, the little nuances you pick up with experience, and if just for those, for about the same price point, why the hell not get the better pilot/CFI?
I mean with the price being close to the same, why would anyone fly with say Shaun over Patty?
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Maciej
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The fact of the matter is that aerobatics is one of the few remaining sports in this world that isn't entirely prevalent all over the internet. Many of the greatest contributors to the sport aren't plastered over posters but they're probably some of the most qualified pilots you'll ever meet. Budd Davisson has 6500hrs+ in Pitts alone and is one of the go-to Pitts transition guys in the country. Steve Wolf, which you may or may not know is the designer of the Wolf Pitts and if you're familiar with Sean's plane you'd know that Steve is the one that designed the first few evolutions of it, is probably one of the best people to learn introductory aerobatics and handling of a biplane that there is. Gregg Koontz, while he isn't a biplane guy is also a legend in aerobatics with a ton of history.
While your intention is benevolent, the people you call hobbies types that you say are teaching a basic intro to aerobatics are actually some of the most significant contributors to aerobatics since the inception of aviation in one way, shape, or form. The reason why you haven't heard of them is because aerobatics is a very niche activity that predominantly still relies on tribal knowledge. Hell, the best place to get information on aerobatics is still an email distribution list LOL
The ironic part of all of this is that if you were to call Patty or Sean, tell them you have a biplane and wanted to do some introductory aerobatics and tail wheel training, they'd direct you to the people mentioned in this thread. As Roscoe said, at the end of the day the aerobatics world is incredibly small, all of us know each other. And the most awesome part of it is that we're all extraordinarily welcoming and have a desire to share the hobby with one another. When I got into aerobatics three years ago I started reaching out to a bunch of people and some of the greatest aerobatic pilots in the country immediately gave me their cell phone numbers and said that whenever I'm in the area I should call them and we'll go flying. It's a dying hobby, and if someone shows an interest in wanting to master the flight envelope in it's entirety by flying aerobatics, we all welcome them with open arms.
Hat's off to you if you can get Hoover to train you. But I would certainly question your grip on reality if you claimed you did.
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Maciej
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lol, this made my morning
I think you're being an epic idiot on purpose, but we're all laughing that you think Steve Wolf, Greg Koontz, and Budd Davisson apply to your stupid statement here.
It also seems that you think of yourself as the Patty Wagstaff of the non-acro CFI world. You are a real internet classic.
What? No option for "world renowned" you?