Aerobatic flight schools in FL - opinions?

jbrinker

jbrinker

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Jbrinker
My inherited biplane (Acro Sport II) is going to be down for repairs/maint/etc. for probably a year.

In the meantime, I've already started on the TW endorsement. I would like to go from there to one of the acro schools this winter.

I'd probably try to combine this into a vacation for myself and my wife, so either FL or AZ are both good possibilities. I've found this site:

https://www.iac.org/aerobatic-flight-schools/usa/FL

With a directory of many acro schools. My goal is to get time in a Pitts - thinking that if I can become comfortable in a twitchy Pitts I can probably transition to the Acro II pretty well later on. Plus I'd love to learn some acrobatics and advanced recovery techniques.

I'd lean toward FL, just beacuse we go there every few years and I'm pretty familiar with most of the state, and we could find things to do when I'm not flying. However AZ would also be cool for a change and is also warm and sunny in the winter.

Specifically I was looking at WingOver Aerobatics LLC near Lakeland in FL (close to Orlando, easy flight from NY, and lots to do around the general area) or SunQuest Aviation in West Palm. Or a number of them in AZ, including Budd Davidson's place.

Anyone with experience or suggestions? I'd be hoping for a week total, with at least 5 days of flying, and at least some time for the wife and I to do some other stuff (Evenings, etc).
 
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So I did the half aerobatic course at Chandler Aerobatics in the Great Lakes and did an hour (which I was graciously offered for free for writing the Sport Aerobatics article) in the Pitts S-2C with Ron Chadwick. Ron is good friends with Budd and is hangared almost directly across from him. I met Budd and actually went to breakfast with him an another younger fella who was in the ANG (aircraft mechanic I think).

Your obviously going to pay quite the premium to fly the Pitts. The Pitts is just an entirely different animal than the Great Lakes. That said, my instructor in the Great Lakes owned an Acroduster for many years (which may be similar to your Acro Sport II) and had plenty of time in the Pitts as well (Chandler used to have a Pitts - I'm not sure if they got rid of it or what). The Great Lakes might be a good alternative at a much more affordable price. That said, if you have the money to train in the Pitts then it probably doesn't get much better than that. The sight picture, steep descent, and high airspeed on final in the Pitts was wild (at least for someone who flies a Cherokee haha). I was amazed at how much drag the big 3 bladed prop adds. Of course, I think Budd's S-2A has a 2 bladed prop.

I'm sure Florida has tons of good options as well.

If you have any questions, let me know.
 
Doesn't patty wagstaff live in FL

Yup, well that answers that question, it's like when ever you have a chance to be batman, be batman.

http://pattywagstaff.com/school/


The airframe doesn't matter nearly as much as the Instructor, and the proof of the pudding is in the taste, lots of ex airline guys and ex .mil guys who go out and buy a acro plane fancy them selves acro instructors, personally I'd want someone who made them self a worldwide name and a living flying acro to teach me acro.

I'd go with Patty in a frickin' C182 over a ex Airline guy in a Extra 300L any day lol

She also used to fly for CalFire in the bronco and taught anti pouchig rangers in Africa how to fly.
 
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James331 said:
Doesn't patty wagstaff live in FL

Yup, well that answers that question, it's like when ever you have a chance to be batman, be batman.

http://pattywagstaff.com/school/


The airframe doesn't matter nearly as much as the Instructor, and the proof of the pudding is in the taste, lots of ex airline guys and ex .mil guys who go out and buy a acro plane fancy them selves acro instructors, personally I'd want someone who made them self a worldwide name and a living flying acro to teach me acro.

I'd go with Patty in a frickin' C182 over a ex Airline guy in a Extra 300L any day lol

She also used to fly for CalFire in the bronco and taught anti pouchig rangers in Africa how to fly.
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Roughly ~5k for a 10 hour course (website says 2-4 hours with Patty)...that's actually pretty reasonable IMO.
 
CC268 said:
Roughly ~5k for a 10 hour course (website says 2-4 hours with Patty)...that's actually pretty reasonable IMO.
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I'd probably do the 5 hour and all in the super D, and negotiate to get all flight training done with patty, maybe kick in a few extra bucks if needed.

Or the owner pilot confidence one, but be sure it's with patty


Go home and practice what you leaned for a while and then go back for more advanced training as required
 
Just go see Steve Wolf (Wingover). He's one of the best Pitts pilots and instructors anywhere. You can do basic acro/spin training along with a Pitts checkout. The Citabria is OK for the basic endorsement, but if you get comfortable landing the S-2B, the ASII will be a breeze. The Acro Sport handles and lands like a cross between a Cub and a Pitts. The Super D has closer performance to the ASII than the Pitts S-2B, but the Pitts is better for doing advanced acro spin training and replicating the landing sight picture, though the Pitts will be worse - which is a good thing. Your goal should be to get safe with the bare acro/spin basics, and to adjust to the sight picture of landing an acro bipe. It doesn't take long to get safe. You get good on your own.
 
Did spin/upset training with Patty’s school. Excellent experience. She’s also an Extra Dealer.
 
whifferdill said:
Just go see Steve Wolf (Wingover). He's one of the best Pitts pilots and instructors anywhere. You can do basic acro/spin training along with a Pitts checkout. The Citabria is OK for the basic endorsement, but if you get comfortable landing the S-2B, the ASII will be a breeze. The Acro Sport handles and lands like a cross between a Cub and a Pitts. The Super D has closer performance to the ASII than the Pitts S-2B, but the Pitts is better for doing advanced acro spin training and replicating the landing sight picture, though the Pitts will be worse - which is a good thing. Your goal should be to get safe with the bare acro/spin basics, and to adjust to the sight picture of landing an acro bipe. It doesn't take long to get safe. You get good on your own.
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That's exactly my reasoning for training in the Pitts. (although I hadn't considered training in a Great Lakes like suggested above, might have to consider that as well) I figure if I can master landing a Pitts, and general maneuvers, I should be able to handle the ASII. Thats one of the reasons I was considering Budd Davidson -since he seems to concentrate on mastering the plane/landing/etc more than the aerobatics stuff (which I still want a slice of).

I've heard good things about Steve Wolf, which is one of the reasons I was considering him as well. And - Patty Wagstaff seems tempting, but maybe not for the basic stuff I'm looking for right now. Plus I really want to train in a bipe, so I can get the hang of that whole sight picture and landing feeling from the back seat.

I should make videos of this like the Flight Chops dude and post them.
 
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jbrinker said:
And - Patty Wagstaff seems tempting, but maybe not for the basic stuff I'm looking for right now.
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Patty is good but folks need to understand that being "famous" doesn't mean much when it comes to basic acro training. Some of the best acro instructors are little known names. Steve has Patty's ability in Pitts types, Patty is just a monoplane pilot.
 
whifferdill said:
Patty is good but folks need to understand that being "famous" doesn't mean much when it comes to basic acro training. Some of the best acro instructors are little known names. Steve has Patty's ability in Pitts types, Patty is just a monoplane pilot.
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Means quite a lot to me, if you're not exceptional at it yourself why would I pay you to teach me when there is someone for about the same price in about the same area who is, and not just exceptional but literally a legend?


image.png


I'm sure he's a safe and good pilot, but I wouldn't hold Steve the CFI on the same level as Patty Wagstaff, he's not even in the same realm, I mean we're talking a woman who's in the national aviation hall of fame, and has one of her planes hanging in the smithsonian!

If you're talking a biplane aerobatic legend on par with Wagstaff that would more be someone like Sean Tucker who has a school on the other coast in CA, also in the national aviation hall of fame, also a featured pilot at more than a few Reno air races, etc.

I'm open about my only biplane time being in a AG cat, but I really don't think it's that different having another wing, the aerobatic fundamentals are going to be 98% the same regardless of the airframe, so why not be taught by one of the greats and have some legendary ink in your log book?
 
Most of the aerobatic schools will teach you the basics of aerobatics. However, their aerobatics courses won't teach you how to fly a high performance aerobatic aircraft. And, there is a difference! I learned this from Allan Moore, the instructor I flew with at Patty Wagstaff's school in St. Augustine.

If ya wanna be "comfortable in a twitchy Pitts", there ain't none better than Budd Davisson. He literally wrote the book. And, he's located in your 2nd choice, AZ.

http://www.airbum.com/Pitts/PittsFlightTraining.html
 
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James331 said:
Means quite a lot to me, if you're not exceptional at it yourself why would I pay you to teach me when there is someone for about the same price in about the same area who is, and not just exceptional but literally a legend?

I'm sure he's a safe and good pilot, but I wouldn't hold Steve the CFI on the same level as Patty Wagstaff, he's not even in the same realm, I mean we're talking a woman who's in the national aviation hall of fame, and has one of her planes hanging in the smithsonian!

If you're talking a biplane aerobatic legend on par with Wagstaff that would more be someone like Sean Tucker who has a school on the other coast in CA, also in the national aviation hall of fame, also a featured pilot at more than a few Reno air races, etc.

I'm open about my only biplane time being in a AG cat, but I really don't think it's that different having another wing, the aerobatic fundamentals are going to be 98% the same regardless of the airframe, so why not be taught by one of the greats and have some legendary ink in your log book?
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You're clearly not an acro guy so I can't blame you for thinking the way you do, but it's really not worth trying to explain. Patty is very good but IMO the OP will be a little better served by Steve and the Pitts for the reasons I've already mentioned. I'm not just some dude with a Pitts avatar.
 
So, it sounds like I had picked a couple good choices anyhow. I will have to talk to my wife, plan some dates, and see who is available during those times. AZ or FL... Budd or Steve. Been watching Pitts training vids today, damn if that doesn't look like a total blast...
 
James331 said:
I'm open about my only biplane time being in a AG cat, but I really don't think it's that different having another wing, the aerobatic fundamentals are going to be 98% the same regardless of the airframe, so why not be taught by one of the greats and have some legendary ink in your log book?
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For the same reason why you won't train with Patty right off the bat, the fundamentals are all the same so Allen which is her chief instructor will be the one giving instruction until you have the fundamentals. Otherwise the money and time is lost because you can't truly comprehend the observations and instruction she'll provide you with. If you can't get the basic stuff right, how will you truly understand the nuance behind most aerobatic maneuvers. For example, if you're just learning the stick feel of a roll and how to center the controls to perfectly hit each point while doing point rolls, then how can you expect someone to understand what rudder input is required? What other factors you should be taking into account? Etc.
 
Maciej said:
For the same reason why you won't train with Patty right off the bat, the fundamentals are all the same so Allen which is her chief instructor will be the one giving instruction until you have the fundamentals. Otherwise the money and time is lost because you can't truly comprehend the observations and instruction she'll provide you with. If you can't get the basic stuff right, how will you truly understand the nuance behind most aerobatic maneuvers. For example, if you're just learning the stick feel of a roll and how to center the controls to perfectly hit each point while doing point rolls, then how can you expect someone to understand what rudder input is required? What other factors you should be taking into account? Etc.
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Her site says otherwise, also as a CFI I can tell you that you don't seek out a school, you seek out a CFI, just like high end tattoos the name above the door doesn't mean anything, it's the name that goes in your logbook.

If I go for one of these courses personally it's going to be with someone who made a name for themself.
 
James331 said:
Her site says otherwise, also as a CFI I can tell you that you don't seek out a school, you seek out a CFI, just like high end tattoos the name above the door doesn't mean anything, it's the name that goes in your logbook.

If I go for one of these courses personally it's going to be with someone who made a name for themself.
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Her former airshow plane that I've flown is also in my avatar and I visit there every few months. I'm also going to be buying a place in Saint Augustine to train over there and use their aerobatic box with my Extra. Just speaking from experience as I'm quite confident about what I seek out for instruction in aerobatics.
 
James331 said:
just like high end tattoos the name above the door doesn't mean anything, it's the name that goes in your logbook.
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Then Sean Tucker's school wouldn't cut it for you either. ;)
 
Maciej said:
Her former airshow plane that I've flown is also in my avatar and I visit there every few months. I'm also going to be buying a place in Saint Augustine to train over there and use their aerobatic box with my Extra. Just speaking from experience as I'm quite confident about what I seek out for instruction in aerobatics.
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For sure, but why not get trained by a legend vs CFI John Doe for the same price?
 
Lol typical James, full of it. :rolleyes:

Boxing with acro guys now...
 
James331 said:
For sure, but why not get trained by a legend vs CFI John Doe for the same price?
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Because your initial training is getting used to the sensations, learning feel, understanding the basics. You can pay much less in a different plane learning the basics than spending the big bucks with Patty just to learn the fundamentals. First four or five hours you'll be still getting used to being inverted, the g-forces, the stick feel, and all of the other nuance surrounding aerobatics. As long as the person providing the instruction is a proven athlete you'll get the same benefit at a reduced investment. A newbie won't be able to truly comprehend what an unlimited level aerobatic pilot is saying when they try to critique most things because they're still overwhelmed with everything going on.

Patty is one of the most qualified aerobatic pilots in the entire world, the things she can teach you are truly priceless, but the real benefits from training with her comes when you're at a higher level in competition where you can truly appreciate the observations that she'll provide on your technique and execution.
 
Maciej said:
Because your initial training is getting used to the sensations, learning feel, understanding the basics. You can pay much less in a different plane learning the basics than spending the big bucks with Patty just to learn the fundamentals. First four or five hours you'll be still getting used to being inverted, the g-forces, the stick feel, and all of the other nuance surrounding aerobatics. As long as the person providing the instruction is a proven athlete you'll get the same benefit at a reduced investment. A newbie won't be able to truly comprehend what an unlimited level aerobatic pilot is saying when they try to critique most things because they're still overwhelmed with everything going on.

Patty is one of the most qualified aerobatic pilots in the entire world, the things she can teach you are truly priceless, but the real benefits from training with her comes when you're at a higher level in competition where you can truly appreciate the observations that she'll provide on your technique and execution.
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Guess it depends on your budget.

My first tattoo was by a world rebound artist, I got the same "you're getting your first with him" comments. Personally I'd go from the ground up with Patty, infact a few of her into programs advertise that.
 
James331 said:
Means quite a lot to me, if you're not exceptional at it yourself why would I pay you to teach me when there is someone for about the same price in about the same area who is, and not just exceptional but literally a legend?
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Meh. Would I want to hire the legend to train me, or the guy that trained the legend?

(and good luck hiring Bob Hoover.)
 
Here's the thing that's not self-evident to non-acro folks - how skilled an aerobatic pilot you end up becoming has almost nothing to do with who you obtained a little initial dual from. Initial acro dual is intended to teach the absolute bare basics and to get a pilot safe doing those basics on their own without killing themselves or bending the airplane. The real skill, knowledge, and experience comes from hard work on your own. How far you go is up to you, not who you trained with. Those who have high standards obtain additional coaching and mentoring, but this is done from someone on the ground with a radio, and not by flying dual with someone famous or otherwise. Self-study and an interest in problem solving are important in a good acro pilot. If you're not into competition or airshows, you're probably not putting in this effort or obtaining quality ground coaching. Like 99% of pilots who do any aerobatics at all, you'll probably just end up fun flopping around the sky doing very basic stuff. And this is fine, of course. At the end of the day, you're only an unsuccessful aerobatic pilot if you're dangerous or not enjoying yourself.

Most of the greats were self-taught anyway. But if simply getting a "famous" name in your logbook seems cool, go for it. Non-acro folks seem to view well-known airshow pilots as having superhuman flying skills, but the fact is that they are just regular folks. You'd be surprised how little talent and skill it takes just to get your initial waiver and start flying local airshows. Well known airshow pilots run the gamut from world-class skill and talent to mediocre. Not knocking Patty at all, but there have been and are plenty of aerobatic pilots in the world with equal or greater talent and skill. And you've never heard of most of them. Patty attained the peak of American competition aerobatics at one time, an elite class for sure. But being a "famous" female airshow pilot does not put her ability ahead of the many others who have reached this peak over the many years of the sport. But you can't exactly download aerobatic ability to the student who's never been upside down in an airplane and is doing initial training. Trust me, a good experienced instructor is way more important than how big their name is. Just trying to offer some perspective.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Meh. Would I want to hire the legend to train me, or the guy that trained the legend?

(and good luck hiring Bob Hoover.)
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If I could fly with Hoover I'd love to.

Personally I think being around the greats and trying to learn from them is a great thing, especially since we're not putting out hoovers and Wagstaffs like we used to
 
whifferdill said:
Here's the thing that's not self-evident to non-acro folks - how skilled an aerobatic pilot you end up becoming has almost nothing to do with who you obtained a little initial dual from. Initial acro dual is intended to teach the absolute bare basics and to get a pilot safe doing those basics on their own without killing themselves or bending the airplane. The real skill, knowledge, and experience comes from hard work on your own. How far you go is up to you, not who you trained with. Those who have high standards obtain additional coaching and mentoring, but this is done from someone on the ground with a radio, and not by flying dual with someone famous or otherwise. Self-study and an interest in problem solving are important in a good acro pilot. If you're not into competition or airshows, you're probably not putting in this effort or obtaining quality ground coaching. Like 99% of pilots who do any aerobatics at all, you'll probably just end up fun flopping around the sky doing very basic stuff. And this is fine, of course. At the end of the day, you're only an unsuccessful aerobatic pilot if you're dangerous or not enjoying yourself.

Most of the greats were self-taught anyway. But if simply getting a "famous" name in your logbook seems cool, go for it. Non-acro folks seem to view well-known airshow pilots as having superhuman flying skills, but the fact is that they are just regular folks. You'd be surprised how little talent and skill it takes just to get your initial waiver and start flying local airshows. Well known airshow pilots run the gamut from world-class skill and talent to mediocre. Not knocking Patty at all, but there have been and are plenty of aerobatic pilots in the world with equal or greater talent and skill. And you've never heard of most of them. Patty attained the peak of American competition aerobatics at one time, an elite class for sure. But being a "famous" female airshow pilot does not put her ability ahead of the many others who have reached this peak over the many years of the sport. But you can't exactly download aerobatic ability to the student who's never been upside down in an airplane and is doing initial training. Trust me, a good experienced instructor is way more important than how big their name is. Just trying to offer some perspective.
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Thank you.
 
James331 said:
If I could fly with Hoover I'd love to.

Personally I think being around the greats and trying to learn from them is a great thing, especially since we're not putting out hoovers and Wagstaffs like we used to
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I assume you don't spend much time in the aerobatics world because that's categorically false.
 
Learning from people who are experienced and successful in what they do (even outside of aviation) isn't better than learning from someone who isn't?

Guess acro must be completely different than most every other thing on earth
 
James331 said:
Learning from people who are experienced and successful in what they do (even outside of aviation) isn't better than learning from someone who isn't?

Guess acro must be completely different than most every other thing on earth
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Spin is the last resort of someone with no legs to stand on. LOL time to move on bud.
 
whifferdill said:
Spin is the last resort of someone with no legs to stand on. LOL time to move on bud.
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I'm not spinning anything, you're arguing that less skill and success is better, that's a failed argument from the start
 
James331 said:
I'm not spinning anything, you're arguing that less skill and success is better, that's a failed argument from the start
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No. You fail the reading and comprehension portion of this test LOL
 
James331 said:
I'm not spinning anything, you're arguing that less skill and success is better, that's a failed argument from the start
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Let me ask you, how much acro have you done in your life? Because as far as I'm concerned based on the things you've written you're merely hypothesizing with zero hands on experience short of maybe a steep turn or something.
 
I recommend doing the basic aerobatics in a Decathlon before moving on so Jim at Dylan Aviation would be a good place to start.You can't go wrong with Patty's 10 hour course. WingOver Aerobatics is also recommended - my view is (and I said this to Steve) - every Pitts pilot should undergo the stall/spin course that he runs. I'd also recommend taking whifferdill's advice.

But if you want a real holiday - visit Australia.
 
Maciej said:
Let me ask you, how much acro have you done in your life? Because as far as I'm concerned based on the things you've written you're merely hypothesizing with zero hands on experience short of maybe a steep turn or something.
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You're right, it's like if you spend enough time inverted everything is always inverted, being successful becomes bad, less experience and skill is better. I only hope one day I could be as good as you lol
 
If you are planning on being in FL then you should go see Tim Preston www.flytailwheel.com

I'm not sure if Tim does full acro courses but as far as tailwheel training and spin training goes he's the master, folk from all over the world seek him out for training work.
He owns a beautiful Stearman and Cub
 
James331 said:
I'm not spinning anything, you're arguing that less skill and success is better, that's a failed argument from the start
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You are equating fame due to airshow performance with skill instructing aerobatics. There may be some crossover, admittedly due to variant correlation. But they are not the same thing. Wouldn't you rather be controlling for a causative variant than merely a correlative variant?
 
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