Advice for speed/flap targets for landing a Saratoga?

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systemloc

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SystemLoc
I recently got a Saratoga Turbo fixed gear and I'm getting broken in with it along with my CFI, stepping up from PPL training in a Warrior. We are working out power settings and speeds for approaches and landings. The manual says to fly final approach at 91 kts, so we tried flying pattern and approach at 91, but looking at the stall speed of 62/58 clean/flaps and the short field calling for final of 79, the 91 kts in the manual is clearly too much speed for short final. We tried it and floated about 3000 feet. I'm assuming this is recommendation is for an IFR approach? Also, 91 kts in the pattern has a lot of nose up attitude which is a bit uncomfortable to me, but I'm assuming that's just me.

I'd like to know what other people with similar planes fly when doing pattern work. I'm used to a 90-80-70 kts and 10-25-40 flaps downwind-base-final paradigm in the Warrior. Please state what your speed target is, with what flap setting, and where in the pattern you transition. Please mention at what gross weight your flying your typical pattern, and how you modify it at max weight.

Also, I've read several places that transitioning to a larger plane, it is easy to pull power to idle and the nose will drop hard causing firewall damage (apparently the 182 is notorious, but also mentioned for this airframe). I know to leave some power in it so as not to drop the nose hard, but any additional advice would be welcome!

Thanks a lot!
 
systemloc said:
I recently got a Saratoga Turbo fixed gear and I'm getting broken in with it along with my CFI, stepping up from PPL training in a Warrior. We are working out power settings and speeds for approaches and landings. The manual says to fly final approach at 91 kts, so we tried flying pattern and approach at 91, but looking at the stall speed of 62/58 clean/flaps and the short field calling for final of 79, the 91 kts in the manual is clearly too much speed for short final. We tried it and floated about 3000 feet. I'm assuming this is recommendation is for an IFR approach? Also, 91 kts in the pattern has a lot of nose up attitude which is a bit uncomfortable to me, but I'm assuming that's just me.
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I don’t recall the speeds I flew, but a 91-knot final approach speed doesn’t mean 91 knots anywhere else in the pattern. Use a speed/power setting on downwind that will allow the increased drag of the configuration changes to get you to your final approach speed without a power change.

Also, how much below MGW were you, and did you adjust your final approach speed (via CAS conversion) appropriately?

Also, I've read several places that transitioning to a larger plane, it is easy to pull power to idle and the nose will drop hard causing firewall damage (apparently the 182 is notorious, but also mentioned for this airframe). I know to leave some power in it so as not to drop the nose hard, but any additional advice would be welcome!

Thanks a lot!
Click to expand...
The nose of the Saratoga will only drop hard by going to idle if you let it. There’s plenty of elevator authority, even at forward CGs.
 
I have a Lance so it is a different wing.

100 downwind
Cut the power at the numbers to 15 map
First notch of flaps and head downhill.
Base at 90. Second notch flaps.
Final 80.
Been landing lately with just the two notches of flaps.
75 short final
Keep power into the flare and ease it out.
 
I do almost the same as NealRomeoGolf. I own a Cherokee 6XT (same as the Saratoga II TC with fixed gear). I cross the threshold at 75, cut the power and touch down just as the stall horn sounds. Too much speed or too much flare and she floats with bad consequences. And the turbo will save you if you must go around.

NealRomeoGolf said:
100 downwind
Cut the power at the numbers to 15 map
First notch of flaps and head downhill.
Base at 90. Second notch flaps.
Final 80.
Been landing lately with just the two notches of flaps.
75 short final
(I don't do this) Keep power into the flare and ease it out.
Click to expand...
 
I have done quite a few checkouts for a local flying club in the fixed gear turbo Saratoga. And one of the things I make sure to mention is that the book value of 91 knots, as you say, is way too fast. Especially at lighter weights. I usually target 80 and that seems to work pretty well. Full flaps.

There is no reason to keep power in to touchdown, the plane has ample elevator authority once you know what you’re doing. That would also be a cause of floating 3000 feet down the runway - high approach speed plus power not at idle = long float.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I have a Lance so it is a different wing.

100 downwind
Cut the power at the numbers to 15 map
First notch of flaps and head downhill.
Base at 90. Second notch flaps.
Final 80.
Been landing lately with just the two notches of flaps.
75 short final
Keep power into the flare and ease it out.
Click to expand...

I have had Lances since around 1990 and this is the same numbers I use, with one exception. I sometimes add full flaps as I float in ground effect.(FYI, I also had a 182 and the advice to keep power on to keep the nose up is good for the 182 also. Both aircraft have long nose gear to keep the large prop off the pavement.) (FYI, I have not flown a T-tail, and expect they need something different.)
 
Put a couple cases of water in the back…..you won’t need any power to flare it.
 
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RussR said:
I have done quite a few checkouts for a local flying club in the fixed gear turbo Saratoga. And one of the things I make sure to mention is that the book value of 91 knots, as you say, is way too fast. Especially at lighter weights. I usually target 80 and that seems to work pretty well. Full flaps.

There is no reason to keep power in to touchdown, the plane has ample elevator authority once you know what you’re doing. That would also be a cause of floating 3000 feet down the runway - high approach speed plus power not at idle = long float.
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No 3000 feet floating at the right speeds. 80 knots is way to fast across fence, even when fully loaded. Just you and another pilot with no baggage, 70 across the fence at most (2 notches of flap). These aircraft are made to fly at 3600#, you are lucky if you are anywhere near 3000# during a check-out. During your checkout, do some full-flap stalls and I would bet you will see 55, maybe 50 knots before you stall. Add a little power, and it's even lower. I can usually get my speed down to 45 for extended full-power slow-flight with just me and the instructor (and we ain't lightweights).
 
Look at the approach speeds short field landing in the performance chart for the gross weight. 80 KTS over the fence is the fastest.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I have a Lance so it is a different wing.

100 downwind
Cut the power at the numbers to 15 map
First notch of flaps and head downhill.
Base at 90. Second notch flaps.
Final 80.
Been landing lately with just the two notches of flaps.
75 short final
Keep power into the flare and ease it out.
Click to expand...
Was just up this am working on getting checked out in a non-turbo T tail lance. Normally fly a skylane. What a different beast. My first pattern o chopped the power the way I do in the skylane snd my CFI says “ your gonna need this power”. Base to final I’m sinking..add an inch or two back…sinking more power sinking.. needed almost full power to arrest the sink snd get back up to where I needed to be. These you truly fly to the touchdown makers. 80 on final for me- 75 when over the numbers ease power back into flare.
 
Thanks everyone so much, this is all super valuable information and I really appreciate everyone weighing in. I am set to go fly with my CFI again tomorrow and we will try these numbers out. Thanks also for the heads up not to keep power on and not to worry about nose drop. i didn't have ballast in the back but I do know to avoid putting weight forward.

Our gross weight was about 3100. Mine is an 82, empty is 2370 and we had about 70 gal of fuel. I read elsewhere on this forum that the later models got heavier and I think I got one of them. Weight and balance has been updated several times and always calculated so I was thinking of having it weighed to verify it.

Benyflyguy- hah that's funny!!! I am well aware everyone says you can beat a brick to the ground with the glide ratio.. Based on the POH glide rnge chart I calculated a glide ratio of 9:1. I think calling out a brick is exaggerating, but not by much! I believe a skylane is 11:1 by comparison.
 
I wanted to update after I went out again today and tried out the new pattern.

Full fuel, 2 people on board, about 3300 lbs.
I flew downwind at 100 kts, then when abeam dropped to 14-15 manifold pressure, flaps 10, and pitch 90.
Base, tried flaps 10 and flaps 25, and 80-90 kts. We like flaps 10 so we have a chance to make the field on an engine out.
Final was 80 kts and flaps 25.
Landing with that configuration was a bit long, so tried adding those flaps 40 over the fence, and that really set us exactly on the touchdown zone very nice.
bleeding airspeed to 72 at the point I did the roundout set us down with almost no float at all.

Really fun day, and I feel a whole lot better about flying the pattern and landing in the new plane. Thanks again!!
 
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