Advice for a flatlander flying into KASE?

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Gubbins

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I'm renting a house in Aspen this summer to periodically escape the Texas heat. I'm really looking forward to it, and using it as a base to fly to some interesting places. Any advice, or suggestions? I took some mountain flying instruction a couple of years ago, but besides that and a single landing at Leadville haven't had any experience. I have a turbo C206 so that should help with DA issues. Should I take a mountain flying course? Thanks for any help or advice.
 
Gubbins said:
Should I take a mountain flying course?
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Yes, or have someone who is very familiar with the mountains fly with you and teach you what you need to know.
 
The single best advice would be to get your summer mountain flying done by noon, and the earlier the better. No need to carry extra weight to impair your climb, so plan your fuel needs without a four hour reserve. Don't even think about flying into or out of Aspen Airport IFR. In the summer, it means you've got thunderstorms. In the winter, ice.
Jon
 
Contact flight schools at APA or BJC, get an experienced mountain CFI (John Bowman @ Western Air - BJC or Larry Camden @ Executive Flight - APA are highly and I mean HIGHLY recommended) for a full-day refresher. Others highly recommended at this list:

http://coloradopilots.org/mtn_instructors.asp?menuID=77~77

When do you plan to arrive? The Colorado Pilots Assoc is offering its full-day ground on June 9 followed the next day or soon after by the 5-6 hour mountain flying.

http://www.coloradopilots.org
 
Here's my advice...don't do it. Or at least get a CFI or local guy to go with you. I've only been scared once in my life flying and it was at KASE when the winds changed short final and I had to circle to land 33.

At one point on the missed / circle I was WAY over torque at Vy and sinking 500 fpm into rising terrain. It was a VFR day (had the field over DBL).

If you're flying by yourself then do yourself a favor and just go to KRIL or KEGE. They are both great airports too.
 
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Gubbins said:
I'm renting a house in Aspen this summer to periodically escape the Texas heat. I'm really looking forward to it, and using it as a base to fly to some interesting places. Any advice, or suggestions? I took some mountain flying instruction a couple of years ago, but besides that and a single landing at Leadville haven't had any experience. I have a turbo C206 so that should help with DA issues. Should I take a mountain flying course? Thanks for any help or advice.
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Definitely take a mountain flying course but the Turbo 206 is a great airplane for Aspen, VFR anyway. I personally wouldn't try IFR in a small piston airplane although I have been there numerous times IFR in turboprops and jets.
 
Playing golf in Aspen last summer I watched four hailstorms roll through during a single round. Nary a hangar to be had. Good luck.
 
Being that KASE is generally a "one-way" airport, you really need to have a CFI show you the ropes for arrival. Certain times of the year it can also be busy as hell, and the Tower WILL launch folks like Mari directly at you. Everyone stays to their respective right/starboard side of the valley in and out. You need to be a lot closer to the ridge than you think is normal.

In fact, the center of a valley or canyon is often exactly where you DON'T want to be, you want as much room for turning radius as possible if you have to reverse course, so the closer to the trees on one side as you can stand and the winds will allow, is exactly the right place to be, but looking out the window the first few times you'll swear you've lost your mind.

Arriving at KASE, done right, you won't be able to see around the corner in the valley because you're tucked into the mountain on the right until you pass the little bump sticking out. This allows them to launch jets straight out to your left. It's a hoot to watch when everyone is doing it right.

One time there departing in the 182, I was as far right as I could get "down valley" but the downdrafts from a north wind were coming off ridgeline and we weren't "hugging" the ridge as much as I'd like. We were nose to nose with a Citation that apparently was determined to fly up the center of the valley and triggered his TCAS. (Well, us combined with his screaming descent rate did anyway...)

Tower was VERY surprised when he didn't just pause his descent even with a "Traffic in sight" call from me, and wanted to break off to the right and climb back out for another Visual. They even warned him of high terrain to his right.

Downright freaked the Citation driver out. Could hear it in his voice. His call, and up he went and around. I had a twinge of guilt for the extra fuel it probably cost him, but I was having my own problems until we'd climbed enough to clear the ridgeline, turn right to cross it, and continue our seemingly never-ending climb to cross Hagerman Pass to do the always fun slam-dunk into KLXV on the East side of Hagerman.

KASE is "close quarters" ops with a mix of speeds and types. Airport specific training highly recommended. The only other Colorado public/paved airport with a more blocked final approach course and opposite direction departing traffic is KGWS. Base leg is around the mountain that sits to your left virtually right up against the runway on departure downhill.

Another comment about KASE: Call ahead to the FBO and get transient rates (you'll be shocked) and make sure there's not some big event scheduled that'll attract bizjets to Aspen. They will and do run out of ramp space at ski season peak usually, and they will not let you park if you don't have a ramp reservation. And as Wayne says, no hangars. Weather can get sporty from time to time in the valley.

Fly safe. KASE not recommended for first-timers. Grab a CFI. And take a photo of the big bronze Eagle statue out front of the FBO. It's cool. ;)
 
Thanks for all the great advice. I will definitely come in the first time with a CFI.
 
Looks like great fun. Did it several times in a sim last week; couldn't make the missed on a single engine in a C90, so plan accordingly. It's good you ask. I'll do the same before I fly in.

Best,

Dave
 
Also remember there are times at Aspen (usually just in the winter) that a reservation is needed just to land there!
 
wabower said:
Playing golf in Aspen last summer I watched four hailstorms roll through during a single round. Nary a hangar to be had. Good luck.
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Wow. How did you manage to find your golf ball in all that hail?

:confused:
 
Note the fuel price spread between Aspen and Leadville. 26 nm apart, but nearly $3 per gallon difference. Aspen is higher, in case you were wondering.
Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Note the fuel price spread between Aspen and Leadville. 26 nm apart, but nearly $3 per gallon difference. Aspen is higher, in case you were wondering.
Jon
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Would be the difference be in the second airport, they can't sell........
Unleaded :goofy:

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Looks like great fun. Did it several times in a sim last week; couldn't make the missed on a single engine in a C90, so plan accordingly. It's good you ask. I'll do the same before I fly in.

Best,

Dave
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That missed looks interesting... Based off the back course of another localizer. I'd love to try it, with a safety pilot of course in VFR weather. We don't have such interesting approaches here.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Note the fuel price spread between Aspen and Leadville. 26 nm apart, but nearly $3 per gallon difference. Aspen is higher, in case you were wondering.
Jon
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But if you're considering flying Independence Pass between the two...don't. Unless you can fly at least 14.5. There's no "out" in that pass and really, no place to put down.

It may be 26 nm straight line, but it's more like 50 nm to Leadville. Reverse route (fly NW) to the lower elevation (fork in the road and the rivers, you'll be over the little town of Basalt) then turn to RedTable VOR, then head to Hagerman Pass and into Leadville. Go get the approach & departure plates and study them.

Hagerman Pass
Route: Leadville to Aspen. Approximate trail elevation 11,960’ MSL. This pass is visible to the weather reporting station at Leadville. Elevation, terrain features, and weather often favor this pass over Independence
Pass. N39-16-03, W106-29-34.
 
It sounds like an incredible area to fly. I'm looking forward to it. I definitely have a healthy respect for knowing how to do it right. How does Aspen compare to Telluride? Just looking at the sectional, Aspen looks like a walk in the park compared to Telluride.
 
Gubbins said:
It sounds like an incredible area to fly. I'm looking forward to it. I definitely have a healthy respect for knowing how to do it right. How does Aspen compare to Telluride? Just looking at the sectional, Aspen looks like a walk in the park compared to Telluride.
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It's the other way around. KTEX is a walk in the park compared to KASE. You can easily circle in TEX. Aspen is a funnel. You fly down the funnel to land and options disappear each second you fly. TEX is high altitude with terrain...but there are outs all over the place.
 
:rofl:

And here I was renting a house in Aspen because I thought it looked easier to get into. Anyway, it will be fun.
 
I'm not saying KASE is impossible or a place to be scared of. It's a place to respect for sure. I've been to both TEX and ASE around 100 times each. I'm just telling you the way I see it based on my experience.
 
Let's look at the chart and I've added a little waypoint I named "ASEDEAD" in Foreflight, as in... You're dead. ;)

4b94241c-7d0a-bccc.jpg


At 90 knots, you have two minutes before you run into an 11,000' ridgeline if you go-around at KASE. You have another 1:31 if you make a hard left to climb through 9000' to clear the lower ridge.

That's "ASETURN" the second waypoint charted.

The airport is at 7820' MSL. What's your Vy climb rate at max power in your POH for 8000'?

Now let's bump the standard temperature up and lets say Density Altitude at the surface is 10,000' MSL. What is your aircraft's climb rate at 10,000' MSL? 500 FPM? Lower?

It's coming up on midnight and 39F up there tonight as I type this. DA is 8305' MSL. It's not even summer yet.

Let's say it's always 29.92 for pressure up there just for this example... At the surface at 7820, it only needs to be 66F temperature-wise for a 10,022' MSL Density Altitude. Last time I was up there we were pushing the Colorado Pilot's Association recommended no-go limit of 75F. Almost 10,500' DA and we hadn't even taken off yet.

Check the performance charts in your POH to see what your expected takeoff ground roll is at 10,500' DA. (Hint: It's off the top of the chart in my Cessna 182P POH. You have to interpolate!)

Back to our hapless go-around guy ...

It is very unlikely you're climbing 500 FPM at 11,000' DA in my aircraft. (Remember DA of 10,500' at the surface, rises as you climb. At 500' AGL you're now looking at 11,000' DA for your performance numbers.)

Now what happens to your rate of climb in a turn? Ahhh... That's right. Two lift vectors. Some of that book number gets lost to this not being a straight-ahead wings-level climb out. Uh oh.

You definitely can't out-climb that terrain ahead. But can you cross the 9000' ridge, or will you have to continue the turn back toward and over the airport? Shallow circle? Claw your way to pattern altitude and head downhill toward Basalt?

This is just one scenario.

If the wind is high aloft out of the north, the back-side downdrafts off of that area marked "The Ridge" are going to be pretty intense. If you're climbing even 500 FPM and get a 200-300 FPM downdraft as you get close to the Ridge, now what? 1000 FPM downdrafts are not uncommon if the wind is high. All depends on where it crosses the ridges, at what angle, and at what speed.

This is the kind of stuff you think about when Mountain flying in Colorado. The airports are paved and you're not dealing so much with "back-country" flying as if you were up flying with the folks up around McCall, ID.

Instead, you're right at the edge of your aircraft's climb performance limits and always looking for "an out". An escape route. Usually downhill. Your turbo helps. A lot. You have more horsepower but the wings are still at 10,500'. Again, everyone's aircraft are different so meticulous study of the POH is in order.

By the way, your human body is also experiencing that DA. Did you bring the oxygen bottle? FAA rules are in altimeter numbers. Real world oxygen needs are in DA. Something to think about on a hot day in the mountains. If your engine won't perform as well at 10,000' DA, neither will your lungs.

Frankly... I love it. All of it.

But it carries higher risks than running around the pattern at a 3000' MSL airport.

:) :) :)
 
By the way. Forgot this. IFR chart for the same area.

Not a single MEA lower than 14,000 and south of KASE the MRA is above 14,000 and the MEA is 16,300'.

4b94241c-858f-bd56.jpg


Got Oxygen? ;)
 
Meant to say "almost 15,000" for the MRA. It's midnight. Tired. No more brainpower tonight. Friday. Zzzz soon.
 
Go on a nice day VFR, go as light as you can. Those big things sticking up are mountains, don't hit them, it hurts. If you are looking at a mountain in the middle of your way, you want to pass to the upwind side of it. If the wind catches you out, you want to cross valleys well below ridge line then closely paralleling the land (and I mean close) you can climb up and pop over a pass in the low level eddy. If it gets bad though, turn downwind and bail outta there. You're always safe, air current wise, heading through downwind, just stay in the passes.

As for Aspen, make some covers for your plane out of moving quilts and bring your Visa card. ;)
 
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:D

Is that what those big things are? Thanks Henning and DenverPilot for the hints. Are you serious about the quilts? Do people really do that?

None of this scares me, I'm really looking forward to it. This is why I bought this plane, to do stuff like this not to get from point A to B. I've done about 10 hours of mountain flying in that area in a turbo 206, so I know enough to know that I need to have a healthy respect. This time around, I will have the G1000 with SVT which will certainly help with situational awareness. And DenverPilot, yes I do have oxygen and the C206 has a 27,000 ceiling (which is nuts I would never even try to go that high but it shows how well that wing flies). So those MEA's don't scare me. Of course, the whole point is I want to fly in the valleys and enjoy the views, not fly over everything.

My plan right now is to to base initially at a different airport, and ease into it. Closer to the time, I will be looking for a mountain flying experienced CFI and also if anyone else would like to ride along that would be great (ulterior motive is you can fly while I take pictures through the open window...)
 
Gdriver, great minds think alike. I just saw your post. I will most likely base somewhere else initially. This guy wants to be an old pilot. ;)
 
Didn't. Went to the house and waited for the melt. Ground is warm, doesn't take long. If you're there, you'll see.

Gubbins said:
Wow. How did you manage to find your golf ball in all that hail?

:confused:
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Gubbins said:
:D

Is that what those big things are? Thanks Henning and DenverPilot for the hints. Are you serious about the quilts? Do people really do that?

None of this scares me, I'm really looking forward to it. This is why I bought this plane, to do stuff like this not to get from point A to B. I've done about 10 hours of mountain flying in that area in a turbo 206, so I know enough to know that I need to have a healthy respect. This time around, I will have the G1000 with SVT which will certainly help with situational awareness. And DenverPilot, yes I do have oxygen and the C206 has a 27,000 ceiling (which is nuts I would never even try to go that high but it shows how well that wing flies). So those MEA's don't scare me. Of course, the whole point is I want to fly in the valleys and enjoy the views, not fly over everything.

My plan right now is to to base initially at a different airport, and ease into it. Closer to the time, I will be looking for a mountain flying experienced CFI and also if anyone else would like to ride along that would be great (ulterior motive is you can fly while I take pictures through the open window...)
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If I'm heading for hail country/season in a nice plane without hangars available I will. You can pre make them into Sunbrella covers for the wings, tail, and fuselage, but then I recommend using a Polartec/plastic fleece lining as it dries very quickly and is very gentle on paint even when there is dust and such blowing. Now you have a full set of permanent covers.

Best way to teach a flat lander about mountains is in the middle of a creek. Set mountains and build ridges and watch what the water does and look for the little places that bring advantage and play with those so you understand what features cause what effect. It would be so cool if you could set up a bunch of smoke wands in the Rockies like in a wind tunnel, it would make an awesome satellite pic on a windy day.

Without the turbo, keep the plane light at higher altitudes and it will still perform adequately for any of the runways and majority of strips. I've been very impressed with the performance I can get out of an R-Stol on the 206, but if you really want to do that kind of flying, trade off for a Katmai. Nothing touches it for your mission unless you also have a large volume mission you need to fill.
 
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If you haven't done so, you might want to check the specific hail damage language in your insurance policy. One or more (can't remember which) of the carriers are now limiting hail-related airframe repair damage to a specified percentage of insured value. The quote I received on the Cessna 180 was 10%.

I objected and was able to obtain a waiver, but I think the insurance companies know that most owners simply pocket the damage claim and continue to fly. Nor do I know if the underwriters target certian geographic areas, but being based in Dallas probably doesn't help my case.

Gubbins said:
Wow. How did you manage to find your golf ball in all that hail?

:confused:
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If you are insurance limited, a good set of covers is a good investment.
 
Henning said:
Best way to teach a flat lander about mountains is in the middle of a creek. Set mountains and build ridges and watch what the water does and look for the little places that bring advantage and play with those so you understand what features cause what effect. It would be so cool if you could set up a bunch of smoke wands in the Rockies like in a wind tunnel, it would make an awesome satellite pic on a windy day.

Without the turbo, keep the plane light at higher altitudes and it will still perform adequately for any of the runways and majority of strips. I've been very impressed with the performance I can get out of an R-Stol on the 206, but if you really want to do that kind of flying, trade off for a Katmai. Nothing touches it for your mission unless you also have a large volume mission you need to fill.
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We call those smoke wands, "Wlidfires" and there's usually a TFR up around them. :)

As far as the R/STOL goes, it's purpose in life is to shorten ground roll. It is NOT helpful to climb rate nor all that useful at mountain airports with long paved runways.

The trade off for leaving the barn doors down is more time needed for acceleration to Vx or Vy, often too slow to climb. That's not what you usually want if you're clawing for altitude. A zero-flap or 10 degrees will usually result in a much faster time to climb than messing with the R/STOL procedures.

Only if your runway is short and/or unimproved and you're looking to save the airframe from a beating, is the R/STOL a needed tool.

It's mostly drag. And you don't need or want more of that during takeoff at 10,000' DA. You might find yourself off the ground nice and early and unable to climb, unable to accelerate, and unable to retract the flaps. All bad.

You also get better slow speed handling but that only helps with landing and mushing through an emergency full-performance course-reversal just above stall speed.

The former is a nice buffer when your eyeballs trick you because of the faster groundspeed if you're not paying attention to the ASI enough.

The latter is only useful when/if you've completely screwed up your navigation into a box canyon.

Neither technique is recommended nor desired. The R/STOL might help save your bacon then, but for departure at high DA, it's actually a liability to get too wild with it. 30 flaps is hard to "milk out" when you can't climb.
 
Aspen isn't a difficult airport, but like anything in the mountains, demands respect and common sense.

Remember the water principle. Water flows downhill, and so must you.

Aspen can see rapid changes in the weather. You can't see what's down the valley until you've taken off, and cleared the ridge on your left; you could come face to face with weather moving down the valley.

Always have a backup plan, and always assume that the terrain will outclimb you. Be acutely aware that while you certainly can get a performance increase by using the terrain and orographic lifting to your advantage, you can also lose most, if not all of your performance to terrain-influenced winds.

Density altitude will always affect you more than you think.

Get comfortable with the concept of making a forced landng (controlled crash) at any time, and plan your flights accordingly, especially in a single engine airplane.

For single engine flying, forget night work there, and don't go IMC. Consider your single engine airplane day VFR. It's not the place to try your hand at IMC, ice, and finding a landing site in the dark.
 
DouglasBader said:
For single engine flying, forget night work there, and don't go IMC. Consider your single engine airplane day VFR. It's not the place to try your hand at IMC, ice, and finding a landing site in the dark.
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KASE Airport is closed 2300-0700 local.

All aircraft must be IFR-equipped from 30 minutes after sunset until 2300. Pilot must be IFR rated even for VFR ops and must have made at least one takeoff and landing at KASE in the preceding 12 months.

Night VMC in the mountains in almost anything isn't too smart.

IMC in the daytime is seriously risky without serious gear and pro crews.

IMC at night is regularly deadly to all.

KASE is a good-weather, VMC and light winds airport for me. Anything else, I'm not going. I'll be on I-70 Westbound in the traffic jam if I need to be up there for something.

Pro crews can push their luck, and often their aircraft, to the limits as their bosses please. Until 2300. Mari may have insights here.

After 2300, nobody flies into KASE.
 
denverpilot said:
Only if your runway is short and/or unimproved and you're looking to save the airframe from a beating, is the R/STOL a needed tool.

It's mostly drag.
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These are the situations I was referring to, going back country mission. It's all drag. You don't have to go all or nothing with the R/STOL gear either, you roll in just some and those flaperons are pretty nifty at keeping low speed handling crisp. As you say though, it's a far cry from ideal, that's why I like the Katmai.;)
 
That missed looks interesting... Based off the back course of another localizer.
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Quick, without thinking too hard about it, do you follow the needle or fly away from it? It does say "BACKCOURSE".
 
It says normal sensing, and the shading is on the right... So follow the needle. :D
 
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