ADSB-out: 1090ES or UAT for light GA?

petrolero said:
But it's certainly true that the FAA's dual band idea has created a frankensystem. We'll have UAT below 18k, 1090ES here at any altitude but required above 18k, and Mode C or S elsewhere for now and possibly 1090 ES mandates in the future.

Not very 'nextgenny' if you ask me.

Only the government could come up with something so stupid.
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I think I get it. The 1090ES is the international standard for commercial and high fliers. That is part of NexGen, but the out is only a small fraction of advanced services that NexGen will need to support. I imagine that it would have been a more difficult and time consuming, not to mention requiring the equipment to be more expensive to the constituency, to piggy back the other data through the 1090 system, so they created a supplementary 978 system to provide that data as well as provide a lower cost to GA local solution for those below 18k.

It actually seems to make reasonable sense to me especially in the light of how other communities are handling it, it doesn't seem to be causing a great conflict or burden. All the crying about how much it's going to cost to comply and how it will bring the downfall of GA seems to be just that much rubbish. Lets face it, if you can't afford a couple of thousand dollars to comply, it's not ADS-B that's keeping you from flying. This is aviation and that is not an untypical number to have to pull out of your ass to keep flying, and for what you get with UAT it seems to me a pretty good value. Lets see, if one saved $10 a month from the time the ADS-B requirement was announced, how much would that be today?
 
Henning said:
I think I get it. The 1090ES is the international standard for commercial and high fliers. That is part of NexGen, but the out is only a small fraction of advanced services that NexGen will need to support. I imagine that it would have been a more difficult and time consuming, not to mention requiring the equipment to be more expensive to the constituency, to piggy back the other data through the 1090 system, so they created a supplementary 978 system to provide that data as well as provide a lower cost to GA local solution for those below 18k.

It actually seems to make reasonable sense to me especially in the light of how other communities are handling it, it doesn't seem to be causing a great conflict or burden. All the crying about how much it's going to cost to comply and how it will bring the downfall of GA seems to be just that much rubbish. Lets face it, if you can't afford a couple of thousand dollars to comply, it's not ADS-B that's keeping you from flying. This is aviation and that is not an untypical number to have to pull out of your ass to keep flying, and for what you get with UAT it seems to me a pretty good value. Lets see, if one saved $10 a month from the time the ADS-B requirement was announced, how much would that be today?
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To whom are you responding? The "downfall of GA" argument is not one that was advanced by me so this response is part straw-man, part unnecessary history lesson and part STFU. You could have saved your keystrokes.

I know the history of ADS-B 987 UAT - I stated above that it was a sop to GA. And, while that is true, it is also beside the point.

This frankensystem creates headaches not so much in compliance but in deciding how to both comply and still receive the "benefits" that we're all paying for while not artificially limiting our flight options.

Hence my comment about praying for a dual-band option coming out of Oshkosh.
 
petrolero said:
That is my plan currently. WX is fine on the iPad but the other downside is that I won't receive audible traffic alerts. I would have TIS-A on the GTN but that is going away (they say).
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I think ForeFlight has audible alerts, doesn't it?
 
Henning said:
Lets face it, if you can't afford a couple of thousand dollars to comply, it's not ADS-B that's keeping you from flying.
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Let's not get carried away here. Last I checked, it was significantly more than a couple thousands for my airplane. The cheapest certified transponder alone, Trig TT22, was $2500 at the least. I haven't settled on position source and airdata computer, but it was looking likely at $3k or more. And then there was a display. UAT solutions are cheaper, but despite John's boosterism, the already-certified ones fetched insane prices - at the range of $7k. Only those that were promised-to-be-ceritified-by-2020 were anywhere near "couple thousand".

Mind that my whole airplane was $12k. It's not some rich guy's twin and the budget breakdown is different.
 
I've been researching this issue since my 30 year old panel is starting to see an increase in bench time.

Assuming that you have a WAAS GPS already in the panel, I think that it comes down to what you plan to use as your MFD. Based on what I've seen so far, I think the screen of the 430/650 panel GPS units are too small to make the "In" capability of the GDL88 worth the cost. It definitely isn't worth the cost if, like me, you need to also replace the transponder. In that case, the 330ES transponder is more cost-effective. If you're comfortable with a tablet or portable as your "In" device, a Stratus or GDL39 can be purchased for less than $1000 and provides you all of the "In" benefits of a GDL88.

However, with Garmin's recently announced FlightStream 110, you can add Bluetooth capability to a GDL88 and receive the "In" products on a tablet running Garmin Pilot.

If you don't have a WAAS GPS in the panel, and don't plan to put one in, and your Mode C transponder isn't on its last legs, then the GDL88 is probably your least-cost route to comply with the 2020 mandate at this point, since you can order the GDL88 equipped with an internal WAAS GPS (which is required).

For me, replacing my old transponder with a GTX327 + GDL88 is more expensive than replacing it with a GTX330ES. Both options assume that a WAAS panel mount GPS is present to use as the position source. I could pair a 330ES with a Stratus or GDL39 with a tablet to capture the dual-frequency (UAT and ES) "In" traffic and weather data, which would be far superior to displaying the "In" data on a 430W or GTN650. However, if I had a 530W or GTN750, the GDL88 might offer more value for display of the "In" products on a larger panel-mount screen. I don't think that the GDL88 will display to the Gxx panels or Aspens, though.

I'm really not sure where the "anonymous" paranoia with UAT vs. Mode S/ES comes from. If the government wants to find me, they're going to find me whether I'm a Mode S or a primary target.

I do not think that the international concern of UAT vs. ES is a canard, although it is perhaps premature at this point. As far as I know, only the US has committed to UAT. While surrounding countries may not yet have ADS-B compliance requirements that would affect light GA, I suspect that it is highly likely any future requirements would favor the world standard over the US domestic standard. However, it may be quite a while before that happens.


JKG
 
If I get the WAAS GPS equipped GDL88, does that provide a second position source for the G-500?
 
zaitcev said:
Let's not get carried away here. Last I checked, it was significantly more than a couple thousands for my airplane. The cheapest certified transponder alone, Trig TT22, was $2500 at the least. I haven't settled on position source and airdata computer, but it was looking likely at $3k or more. And then there was a display. UAT solutions are cheaper, but despite John's boosterism, the already-certified ones fetched insane prices - at the range of $7k. Only those that were promised-to-be-ceritified-by-2020 were anywhere near "couple thousand".

Mind that my whole airplane was $12k. It's not some rich guy's twin and the budget breakdown is different.
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Huh? The GDL 88 is nowhere near $7k.
 
JGoodish said:
I've been researching this issue since my 30 year old panel is starting to see an increase in bench time.

Assuming that you have a WAAS GPS already in the panel, I think that it comes down to what you plan to use as your MFD. Based on what I've seen so far, I think the screen of the 430/650 panel GPS units are too small to make the "In" capability of the GDL88 worth the cost. It definitely isn't worth the cost if, like me, you need to also replace the transponder. In that case, the 330ES transponder is more cost-effective. If you're comfortable with a tablet or portable as your "In" device, a Stratus or GDL39 can be purchased for less than $1000 and provides you all of the "In" benefits of a GDL88.

However, with Garmin's recently announced FlightStream 110, you can add Bluetooth capability to a GDL88 and receive the "In" products on a tablet running Garmin Pilot.

If you don't have a WAAS GPS in the panel, and don't plan to put one in, and your Mode C transponder isn't on its last legs, then the GDL88 is probably your least-cost route to comply with the 2020 mandate at this point, since you can order the GDL88 equipped with an internal WAAS GPS (which is required).

For me, replacing my old transponder with a GTX327 + GDL88 is more expensive than replacing it with a GTX330ES. Both options assume that a WAAS panel mount GPS is present to use as the position source. I could pair a 330ES with a Stratus or GDL39 with a tablet to capture the dual-frequency (UAT and ES) "In" traffic and weather data, which would be far superior to displaying the "In" data on a 430W or GTN650. However, if I had a 530W or GTN750, the GDL88 might offer more value for display of the "In" products on a larger panel-mount screen. I don't think that the GDL88 will display to the Gxx panels or Aspens, though.

I'm really not sure where the "anonymous" paranoia with UAT vs. Mode S/ES comes from. If the government wants to find me, they're going to find me whether I'm a Mode S or a primary target.

I do not think that the international concern of UAT vs. ES is a canard, although it is perhaps premature at this point. As far as I know, only the US has committed to UAT. While surrounding countries may not yet have ADS-B compliance requirements that would affect light GA, I suspect that it is highly likely any future requirements would favor the world standard over the US domestic standard. However, it may be quite a while before that happens.


JKG
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I have a gdl 88 and a 650. It works great. I can pull up weather data on demand either from map mode or by pressing wx info and typing in a particular airport. There is a dedicated traffic page and traffic also appears on the map page. I don't think it's too small at all, although when my hsi goes I will probably opt to put in a g500 or whatever the equivalent will be at the time.
 
frcabot said:
I have a gdl 88 and a 650. It works great. I can pull up weather data on demand either from map mode or by pressing wx info and typing in a particular airport. There is a dedicated traffic page and traffic also appears on the map page. I don't think it's too small at all, although when my hsi goes I will probably opt to put in a g500 or whatever the equivalent will be at the time.
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I didn't say that it didn't work, but it's nowhere near as nice as the larger display on a tablet (or 750), especially for weather, and particularly for older eyes. It also depends on precisely how far away the 650 is from the pilot's view. The 650 screen is larger than the 430, but there's no escaping the fact that it's relatively small. I'm not convinced that there's much point in spending money on the GDL88 for "In" capability on a small unmovable display when you can spend $800 and get it on a tablet.

On the other hand, the new FlightStream 110 will give you the tablet option from the GDL88 if the in-panel display does not suffice. That might be a decent compromise in capability if the 650 otherwise suits the mission. I haven't decided what, if anything, I'm going to do with my own panel at this point, but I don't ever foresee a G500 or similar in my future.

As of now, I don't believe that the GDL88 will display on the G500, though I'd be surprised if that isn't fixed at some point.


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
I didn't say that it didn't work, but it's nowhere near as nice as the larger display on a tablet (or 750), especially for weather, and particularly for older eyes. It also depends on precisely how far away the 650 is from the pilot's view. The 650 screen is larger than the 430, but there's no escaping the fact that it's relatively small. I'm not convinced that there's much point in spending money on the GDL88 for "In" capability on a small unmovable display when you can spend $800 and get it on a tablet.

On the other hand, the new FlightStream 110 will give you the tablet option from the GDL88 if the in-panel display does not suffice. That might be a decent compromise in capability if the 650 otherwise suits the mission. I haven't decided what, if anything, I'm going to do with my own panel at this point, but I don't ever foresee a G500 or similar in my future.

As of now, I don't believe that the GDL88 will display on the G500, though I'd be surprised if that isn't fixed at some point.


JKG
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You're right, the GDL 88 does not currently display on a G500, although there's apparently an imminent update to the G500 that'll fix that issue. Since I don't currently have a G500 and don't anticipate getting one in the immediate future, it doesn't affect me much. I really wish the GDL 88 had Bluetooth and it really bugs me that I need a separate device for a tablet. Still, I'll look at the flightstream thingy you mentioned.
 
Just looked up the flightstream 110/210. Interesting but it really should have been included in the price of the GDL 88. I don't see why I would pay $1000 for a fixed tablet link when I could get the Stratus 2 with foreflight, which also has a backup ahrs, and costs far less. The ability to transfer flight plans to a 650, while nice, isn't worth the several hundred extra dollars. Plus, I can use the Stratus 2 in other planes, etc.

I would go for it if the 110/210 were about half the price garmin was charging. Maybe garmin will run some attractive rebate programs.
 
frcabot said:
Just looked up the flightstream 110/210. Interesting but it really should have been included in the price of the GDL 88. I don't see why I would pay $1000 for a fixed tablet link when I could get the Stratus 2 with foreflight, which also has a backup ahrs, and costs far less. The ability to transfer flight plans to a 650, while nice, isn't worth the several hundred extra dollars. Plus, I can use the Stratus 2 in other planes, etc.

I would go for it if the 110/210 were about half the price garmin was charging. Maybe garmin will run some attractive rebate programs.
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There are two different FlightStream devices. From what I've read, the FlightStream 210 will provide connectivity with the 430w/530w/650/750, and the FlightStream 110 will provide connectivity with the GDL88. I believe that the FlightStream 110 is under $600 list, though it appears to require a small wiring harness to interface with the GDL88. Either device will apparently work only with Garmin Pilot, so if ForeFlight is your fancy, they are of no help. However, that brings me back to my original point: If you plan to display weather and traffic on a tablet or portable, I'm not sure that there is quite so much value in the GDL88.

Regarding the FlightStream 210, which interfaces with the GPS units, I think that you are underestimating the value of the automation that it brings to the panel-mount units. Whether it's worth the investment will likely depend on your mission and desire for convenience.

For someone in my situation who needs an IFR panel upgrade, is comfortable using a tablet as the MFD, and who wants a best value solution to meet the 2020 mandate, the GTX330ES + GTN650 may be the cleanest option. The "In" solution could then be of of the person's own choosing. However, an integrated, installed solution would likely provide additional value for many others.


JKG
 
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petrolero said:
Hence my comment about praying for a dual-band option coming out of Oshkosh.
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What are you looking for at Oshkosh that isn't currently available? It isn't clear what you mean by a dual band option. There are many systems in the marketplace that offer dual band receivers and dual band ADS-B Out is also available for a price.
 
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