ADS-B out

[denverpilot]

When I was in ARTCC in the 70-80s were we were using an computer generated "mosaic" of multiple radar feeds.
Adding ADSB data is nothing new as far as mosaic data feeds.

Yeah, similar stuff was being used when I was installing the first touch screen conference bridges for the TRACONs back in the early 90s. That system is long gone and removed and replaced with something more interesting now, I'm sure.

I don't think our troll has any clue that a number of us have been inside the beast. He's just making up crap and hasn't worked inside a lovely lime green government building's equipment closets and rooms a day in his life.

Loved those giant framed photos of Peña at the end of every hallway though. Really added to the baby poop feel of the lime green walls.

 

[BillTIZ]

I worked Boston ARTCC from 1976-1982. FPL controller, then I had a chance at a flying career.
I worked the old system pushing shrimp boats and watched the transition to the mosaic computer display with automated data blocks.

 

[brien23]

Lol! Coming from the guy who has no source. Just a hunch that they're getting new displays to replace their old ones. It's not like many facilities are using the 1950s displays like I used anyway. FAA started phasing those out years ago. The problem you talk of with a sweep display (single sensor radar), is quickly becoming a thing of the past as well. Like Nate brought up, fusion radar is taking over. You have like a one second refresh radar from multiple antennas. Yes, you CAN display ADS-B with traditional ATCRBS. From the .65:

4. ADS-B may be integrated as an additional surveillance source when operating in FUSION mode. The display of ADS-B targets is permitted and does not require radar reinforcement.

NOTE−

ADS-B surveillance must only be used when operating in FUSION.

Alaska has been using both for a long time:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...11-17/alaska-ads-b-returning-atc-radar-scopes

The OP was a question not a statement.

 

[brien23]

Yeah, similar stuff was being used when I was installing the first touch screen conference bridges for the TRACONs back in the early 90s. That system is long gone and removed and replaced with something more interesting now, I'm sure.

I don't think our troll has any clue that a number of us have been inside the beast. He's just making up crap and hasn't worked inside a lovely lime green government building's equipment closets and rooms a day in his life.

Loved those giant framed photos of Peña at the end of every hallway though. Really added to the baby poop feel of the lime green walls.

Radar and ADS-B information all mixed in to one display sound like a mess or is it one or the other. If it is ADS-B only why do you need radar and a transponder if none of it is on the ATC display and all the information on the display from ADS-B. My post have been questions your post have been statements of fact without any source or credible source.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Radar and ADS-B information all mixed in to one display sound like a mess

Why would it be a mess? It's exactly the same information.

 

[brien23]

Why would it be a mess? It's exactly the same information.

How old is radar information ADS-B is the now position, why would you mix the two.

 

[BillTIZ]

Radar and ADS-B information all mixed in to one display sound like a mess or is it one or the other. If it is ADS-B only why do you need radar and a transponder if none of it is on the ATC display and all the information on the display from ADS-B. My post have been questions your post have been statements of fact without any source or credible source.

There is a lot of airspace that is IFR controlled, mostly by radar, where ADSB is not required.
Those broadcasting ADSB will be displayed along with those with just a transponder pinged by radar.

Two ADSB targets will have different (closer) IFR separation minimum than non ADSB targets due to target accuracy. This will mostly be observed in positive controlled airspace where everyone has ADSB. Class A and Class B or above 10,000MSL.

All airborne TCAS systems rely on transponders not ADSB.

 

[Velocity173]

Radar and ADS-B information all mixed in to one display sound like a mess or is it one or the other. If it is ADS-B only why do you need radar and a transponder if none of it is on the ATC display and all the information on the display from ADS-B. My post have been questions your post have been statements of fact without any source or credible source.

There is no "mess." That's why it's called "FUSION." You're mixing all available surveillance into one display.

The difference between an ADS-B target and a non ADS-B target, is the depiction of a small circle icon next to the ID tag. It's either solid for ADS-B or empty for non ADS-B.

The difference in refresh is between one second for a traditional ATCRBS target and whatever delay it takes for an ADS-B target. It's not significant because of the advances in recent years with overlapping radar.

 

[murphey]

1) there's no mess, the icons, tracks, etc are all explicit
2) controllers are trained to understand and manage the information.

Go get trained as a controller then come back and complain about the 'mess' when you have the knowledge and credentials.

 

[brien23]

1) there's no mess, the icons, tracks, etc are all explicit
2) controllers are trained to understand and manage the information.

Go get trained as a controller then come back and complain about the 'mess' when you have the knowledge and credentials.

So if radar is still used with the system we have now why is their a requirement to have ADS-B by 2020.

 

[brien23]

1) there's no mess, the icons, tracks, etc are all explicit
2) controllers are trained to understand and manage the information.

Go get trained as a controller then come back and complain about the 'mess' when you have the knowledge and credentials.

So you are a trained controller with the knowledge and credentials?

 

[brien23]

The difference in refresh is between one second for a traditional ATCRBS target and whatever delay it takes for an ADS-B target. It's not significant because of the advances in recent years with overlapping radar.[/QUOTE]
Not sure I believe your one second refresh for long range might be for short range 10 miles, what is your source of information. ATCRBS uses a rotating antenna to send out interrogations. Interrogations are being sent continuously as the antenna rotates. As a result, an aircraft that flies through the antenna beam will be interrogated several times, up to 20 times per sweep. Each time, the transponder in the airplane sends back a separate reply. The result is excess communication between ground sensors and airborne transponders, causing interference and overload in the 1030/1090 MHz channels.

The non-specific nature of ATCRBS interrogations also leads to an increase in interference and overload on the channel. As traffic increases, the number of airplanes at a given time within the ATCRBS antenna's interrogation beam will also increase. Consequently, the ground station will receive more and more replies, causing the 1090 MHz channel to become overloaded with replies. When these replies overlap, interference occurs, and the ground station receives garbled signals which it is unable to use. This problem partially derives from the fact that the original military system on which ATCRBS was based was not designed for the scale of civilian aviation. IFF only had to handle a limited number of planes at a given time. ATCRBS, using IFF's system, therefore becomes increasingly ineffective as civilian air traffic increases. I'm sure this system from 1956 will work great with ADS-B

 

[BillTIZ]

The difference in refresh is between one second for a traditional ATCRBS target and whatever delay it takes for an ADS-B target. It's not significant because of the advances in recent years with overlapping radar.

Not sure I believe your one second refresh for long range might be for short range 10 miles, what is your source of information.[/QUOTE]
Long range radars rotate at about 6 rpm or 10second updates plus processing time. Terminal radar has a faster spin rate and updates more often. Add fusion from multiple radar sources and the computer generated display updates more often. ADSB updates at 1Hz rates, plus processing time.

Source: personal use of the equipment, training and experience.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So if radar is still used with the system we have now why is their a requirement to have ADS-B by 2020.

Because ADS-B is "Next Gen"!!!!!

Wonderful things are going to happen. Wonderful.

It's NEXT GEN. You know, Next Gen! As in - like - new and improved! Next Gen!

The FAA has spent a metric buttload of money promoting Next Gen!

It's Modern! Improved! Next Gen!

 

[Velocity173]

]

Again, the system today isn't what they had in 1956...unless you're talking about most PARs but that's a whole separate topic. My old facility, has gone from analog ASR-8 and crappy ARTS IIIA software to digital ASR-9 and STARS years ago. Very few facilities are still holding onto the older systems you speak of.

As Blitz said, center does have a longer delay but it wont have much affect when we go full ADS-B anyway because most of their stuff is above the 10K requirement. Even a mix of ADS-B with the delay won't be a problem. As far as approach facilities, the new FUSION systems have only a one second delay as indicted in the article below. All depicted on the same display...without creating a mess.

https://www.army.mil/article/177076...ntegrates_new_air_traffic_surveillance_system

 

[Axtel4]

Not sure I believe your one second refresh for long range might be for short range 10 miles, what is your source of information.

Airborne Side:
1090ES Transponder: Mode S Short Squitter (56 bits) rate is 1 per second. Mode S Long (112 bits) rate is four times per second. Ref. DO-181 / DO-242

978UAT: ADS-B Broadcast interval 1 sec. D0-242/ DO-282

Ground side:
As stated above the ADS-B targets are fused with the SSR returns and presented to the terminal. The Expected Performance of the interval is:
• Terminal Update Rate no greater than 3 seconds (PD of 95%)
• En Route Update Rate no greater than 6 seconds (PD of 95%)
FAA Order 8200-45

 

[denverpilot]

So if radar is still used with the system we have now why is their a requirement to have ADS-B by 2020.

Because of the third letter in ADS-B. Surveillance.

ADS-B out equipped aircraft can be tracked down to the tail number. Transponder equipped aircraft with only Mode-C, can't.

That's the only real reason. There's no particularly pressing need for poorly designed new tech for traffic separation at all.

The densest airspace isn't getting any denser with traffic, it's already at the limits of sanity for separation distance for safe operations at peak times. And that airspace is already covered by modern fast radar.

It's a multi-billion dollar boondoggle.

 

[brien23]

Because of the third letter in ADS-B. Surveillance.

ADS-B out equipped aircraft can be tracked down to the tail number. Transponder equipped aircraft with only Mode-C, can't.

That's the only real reason. There's no particularly pressing need for poorly designed new tech for traffic separation at all.

The densest airspace isn't getting any denser with traffic, it's already at the limits of sanity for separation distance for safe operations at peak times. And that airspace is already covered by modern fast radar.

It's a multi-billion dollar boondoggle.

That is the best answer to the OP and my question.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Anyone know anything about the Freeflight UAT solution where you keep your existing transponder? Its a box that mounts behind the panel. Has its own GPS WAAS so its for planes that dont have WAAS. If you want IN, you read it on your IPAD. They have an OUT only solution too.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Anyone know anything about the Freeflight UAT solution where you keep your existing transponder? Its a box that mounts behind the panel. Has its own GPS WAAS so its for planes that dont have WAAS. If you want IN, you read it on your IPAD. They have an OUT only solution too.

I have one. Works great.

 

[coloradobluesky]

What equipment do you have with it? Is it out only or out and in? Which model?

 

[James331]

Because of the third letter in ADS-B. Surveillance.

ADS-B out equipped aircraft can be tracked down to the tail number. Transponder equipped aircraft with only Mode-C, can't.

That's the only real reason. There's no particularly pressing need for poorly designed new tech for traffic separation at all.

The densest airspace isn't getting any denser with traffic, it's already at the limits of sanity for separation distance for safe operations at peak times. And that airspace is already covered by modern fast radar.

It's a multi-billion dollar boondoggle.

That.

hopefully not, but between the info ADSB sends and the new rules forcing folks to update their registrations, it would flow seamlessly into a user fee system.

Then watch quite a few GA aircraft go xpdr dark, buuuuut it was all for safety lmao!

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

What equipment do you have with it? Is it out only or out and in? Which model?

I didn't install the FreeFlight (previous owners did) but I believe I have a FreeFlight Rangr Lite FDL-978-XVRL with a King KT76A transponder. I have in and out with wifi to my iPad for traffic and weather. Here is a picture of the FreeFlight module. Stays on Alt all the time and synchs the transponder code with the King box. I never have to touch the FreeFlight module.

 

[Bob Noel]

After 2020 why do I need a transponder. Since ADS-B is a stand alone system and radar will no longer be used in the ATC system why would you need a transponder.

Because radar will be used to validate the ADS-B targets.

Because TCAS relies on transponders.

Because TCAS II is used for collosion avoidance and ADS-B is only used for SA.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Not sure I believe your one second refresh for long range might be for short range 10 miles, what is your source of information. ATCRBS uses a rotating antenna to send out interrogations. Interrogations are being sent continuously as the antenna rotates. As a result, an aircraft that flies through the antenna beam will be interrogated several times, up to 20 times per sweep. Each time, the transponder in the airplane sends back a separate reply. The result is excess communication between ground sensors and airborne transponders, causing interference and overload in the 1030/1090 MHz channels.

The non-specific nature of ATCRBS interrogations also leads to an increase in interference and overload on the channel. As traffic increases, the number of airplanes at a given time within the ATCRBS antenna's interrogation beam will also increase. Consequently, the ground station will receive more and more replies, causing the 1090 MHz channel to become overloaded with replies. When these replies overlap, interference occurs, and the ground station receives garbled signals which it is unable to use. This problem partially derives from the fact that the original military system on which ATCRBS was based was not designed for the scale of civilian aviation. IFF only had to handle a limited number of planes at a given time. ATCRBS, using IFF's system, therefore becomes increasingly ineffective as civilian air traffic increases. I'm sure this system from 1956 will work great with ADS-B

A request -- if you're just going to copy and paste line by line after googling another source, it's appropriate to at least reference that source.

http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mode-s/atcrbs.html


Problems
ATCRBS uses a rotating antenna to send out interrogations. Interrogations are being sent continuously as the antenna rotates. As a result, an aircraft that flies through the antenna beam will be interrogated several times, up to 20 times per sweep. Each time, the transponder in the airplane sends back a separate reply. The result is excess communication between ground sensors and airborne transponders, causing interference and overload in the 1030/1090 MHz channels.

The non-specific nature of ATCRBS interrogations also leads to an increase in interference and overload on the channel. As traffic increases, the number of airplanes at a given time within the ATCRBS antenna's interrogation beam will also increase. Consequently, the ground station will receive more and more replies, causing the 1090 MHz channel to become overloaded with replies. When these replies overlap, interference occurs, and the ground station receives garbled signals which it is unable to use. This problem partially derives from the fact that the original military system on which ATCRBS was based was not designed for the scale of civilian aviation. IFF only had to handle a limited number of planes at a given time. ATCRBS, using IFF's system, therefore becomes increasingly ineffective as civilian air traffic increases.

 

[coloradobluesky]

The other question I have about ADS-B is this. Most collisions happen within 5 miles of an airport and many happen in the pattern. It is because that is where the planes are. So how much help is ADS-B in dealing with approach and pattern entry? Is it useful in that environment?. The reason I ask is I don't have a display in the plane and wonder about getting one.

 

[denverpilot]

The other question I have about ADS-B is this. Most collisions happen within 5 miles of an airport and many happen in the pattern. It is because that is where the planes are. So how much help is ADS-B in dealing with approach and pattern entry? Is it useful in that environment?. The reason I ask is I don't have a display in the plane and wonder about getting one.

Not ADS-B, but TIS, does help a little in the case where you lose sight of traffic in the pattern -- the assumption is the tower has the picture even if you just lost it, but it helps to see a target further ahead in the downwind where they "should be" or if they're not, you can maybe figure out what they're doing.

But with NO system guaranteeing that every aircraft will be depicted, it has to be viewed as what it is: Nice if it works. Not always a correct view of traffic, ever.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Ok...I'm sure this question is answered somewhere...but, I'm not able to locate it. What's the difference in traffic reported from old fashioned TIS-A (mode S) and ADS-B?

And if I install a new transponder with ES like a KT-74....will it report TIS-A or ADS-B (TIS-B) traffic on the 530W?

 

[Axtel4]

Ok...I'm sure this question is answered somewhere...but, I'm not able to locate it. What's the difference in traffic reported from old fashioned TIS-A (mode S) and ADS-B?

TIS (aka TIS-A) is uplinked to a TIS enabled Mode S transponder on 1030 MHz during the SSR sweep. It is only uplinked to the TIS Mode S transponders requesting the data. TIS is only available in the service volume of the Mode S terminal RADAR facilities. The TIS update rate from the ground station is approximately 5 seconds. The only TIS Mode S transponders on the market are the KT-73 and the Garmin GTS-33/33ES. TIS is in the process of being phased out and in some parts of the country it is already deactivated.

TIS-B (TIS Broadcast) is broadcast on the transponder output frequency (1090 MHz) or on UAT (978 MHz). TIS-B can be received on either frequency, processed and feed to a TIS-B traffic display by an ADS-B receiver.

And if I install a new transponder with ES like a KT-74....will it report TIS-A or ADS-B (TIS-B) traffic on the 530W?

The new ADS-B transponders (KT-74, Garmin, etc.) do not support TIS reception on 1030 MHz.

Both services will display traffic. However, where TIS is limited to the area of the Mode S terminal service volume, TIS-B, along with ADS-R and ADS-B, is available wherever there is an ADS-B receiver and a UAT ground station or ADS-B out equipped aircraft.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The new ADS-B transponders (KT-74, Garmin, etc.) do not support TIS reception on 1030 MHz.

Both services will display traffic. However, where TIS is limited to the area of the Mode S terminal service volume, TIS-B, along with ADS-R and ADS-B, is available wherever there is an ADS-B receiver and a UAT ground station or ADS-B out equipped aircraft.

so....what service is being displayed (on the 530W) thru the 330ES and KT74 units?

 

[GRG55]

Anyone know anything about the Freeflight UAT solution where you keep your existing transponder? Its a box that mounts behind the panel. Has its own GPS WAAS so its for planes that dont have WAAS. If you want IN, you read it on your IPAD. They have an OUT only solution too.

I'm looking at this option pretty seriously. I like the fact I don't have to seriously disturb the existing KT-76A transponder installation (even though some think cavity tube transponders are "obsolete:, there's a million KT-76As out there so I don't think I'll have any trouble finding a cheap used replacement if mine packs up).

I also like their segregation of 1090ES from 978 UAT in Freeflight's product line. My plane doesn't fly above 18k so there's no need for 1090ES, and avoiding that is apparently the only way to address the privacy issue James331 noted.
http://www.freeflightsystems.com/ne...d-privacy-not-all-datalinks-are-created-equal

Freeflight does make a transceiver box (FDL-978-XVR) that will use the WAAS GPS position information sourced from a Garmin 430W or 530W. However, if you want just ADS-B Out (transmitter only) it looks like you have to buy one of their all-in-one boxes.

 

[GRG55]

I didn't install the FreeFlight (previous owners did) but I believe I have a FreeFlight Rangr Lite FDL-978-XVRL with a King KT76A transponder. I have in and out with wifi to my iPad for traffic and weather. Here is a picture of the FreeFlight module. Stays on Alt all the time and synchs the transponder code with the King box. I never have to touch the FreeFlight module.

Can you clarify the mechanics of setting/synching the transponder code? Do you have to set it on the KT-76A and the Freeflight box updates itself, or can you set the code from the Freeflight control head (I notice the control head has a "VFR" button, so not clear how that works with the King box)?

 

[Axtel4]

so....what service is being displayed (on the 530W) thru the 330ES and KT74 units?

None from the transponders. The KT-74 and I also believe the 330ES do not contain 1090 MHz receivers so the will not receive the TIS-B, ADS-R, ADS-B, and FIS-B data. Also on the 1030 MHz side, they do not decode and forward the legacy TIS data to a display.

You will need a separate ADS-B receiver to view the ADS-B data on the 530W.

 

[Axtel4]

The FAA rules do not allow "double" entry of the 4096 code via transponder and UAT. The UAT boxes typically have a pick-up coil that is placed around the transponder antenna coax to "sniff" the 4096 code and using it for the UAT "4096" code.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Can you clarify the mechanics of setting/synching the transponder code? Do you have to set it on the KT-76A and the Freeflight box updates itself, or can you set the code from the Freeflight control head (I notice the control head has a "VFR" button, so not clear how that works with the King box)?

You set it on the KT-76A and the FreeFlight module updates itself within a few seconds. You never have to touch the FreeFlight control head after initial setup.

 

[denverpilot]

Not ADS-B, but TIS, ...

Apologies for the odd wording of this, what I meant to say was that the aircraft I was flying didn't have ADS-B, but the alternative traffic system shows similar data -- and was then explaining how it "helps" a little in the pattern in response to the question about ADS-B in the pattern. In other words, any system helps a little but none are foolproof. It wasn't intended as a comparison of the multiple systems.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

None from the transponders. The KT-74 and I also believe the 330ES do not contain 1090 MHz receivers so the will not receive the TIS-B, ADS-R, ADS-B, and FIS-B data. Also on the 1030 MHz side, they do not decode and forward the legacy TIS data to a display.

You will need a separate ADS-B receiver to view the ADS-B data on the 530W.

here I thought those were mode S transponders....and would display TIS-A traffic....vs. ADS-B TIS-B traffic.

 

[Axtel4]

The only transponders that display legacy TIS are the KT-73 and the GTX-33/33ES.