ads-b benefit for search and rescue?

exncsurfer

exncsurfer

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exncsurfer
Will the data generated by ads-b out be archived and available for search and rescue operations? The FAA's ads-b FAQ alludes to benefits of ATC to pinpoint last known positions. I'm just wondering how automated it might be. Like will all the data be archived and searchable and made available to SAR folks in a timely manner?

The complaints from some regarding the primary goal being surveillance got me wondering about this. Maybe at least it would benefit SAR? Even a plane not on flight following will have a last known good position in 'the system'.
 
exncsurfer said:
Will the data generated by ads-b out be archived and available for search and rescue operations? The FAA's ads-b FAQ alludes to benefits of ATC to pinpoint last known positions. I'm just wondering how automated it might be. Like will all the data be archived and searchable and made available to SAR folks in a timely manner?

The complaints from some regarding the primary goal being surveillance got me wondering about this. Maybe at least it would benefit SAR? Even a plane not on flight following will have a last known good position in 'the system'.
Click to expand...

Our current / legacy system archives data as well and in most cases, you get a track on an aircraft to a few hundred feet above the ground. With ADS-B being GPS based, it would definitely benefit by keeping a tracked target on the scope longer in the areas blind to radar. Only thing is, if the aircraft is completely destroyed, I doubt it'll be still sending a usable signal vs a 406 transponder.
 
Velocity173 said:
Our current / legacy system archives data as well and in most cases, you get a track on an aircraft to a few hundred feet above the ground. With ADS-B being GPS based, it would definitely benefit by keeping a tracked target on the scope longer in the areas blind to radar. Only thing is, if the aircraft is completely destroyed, I doubt it'll be still sending a usable signal vs a 406 transponder.
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Yea, well I was thinking it might also add important SAR info for planes squawking VFR (uknown tail# in the system) once someone starts looking for them. With ads-b data the tail# will be in the data right? According to our archive data bugsmasherXYZ last position was reported 50ft at x,y coordinates at date, time..... Will that be possible for any ads-b out plane and easily requested/provided for SAR purposes? Seems it would be a huge improvement for SAR of 'no flight plan' 'no flight following' VFR flights. Not so good for paranoid pilots not wanting to be surveilled worrying about receiving a usage bill in the mail.
 
They're already pretty good at radar tracking(even 1200) for SAR if they have initial information, for the really paranoid you also better turn off your phone before you crash as the cell phone team is also pretty good. ADS-B should improve that but I haven't heard any rumblings either way
 
Wanna see ADS-B tracking archived? Go to FlightAware.com and put in a tailnumber (yours if you have ADS-B) and see the flight track from each flight for that aircraft. These things are created in realtime and would show the exact location if a plane went down.
 
The only current problem with FlightAware is that many stations(like mine) aren't yet setup for 978. When I get a free few hours I'll set that up. But I was just thinking if all these systems got together that would definitely be a valuable SAR asset as anyone can put up a receiver for $100 or so and a view of the sky. And should make the paranoid crowd even more paranoid.
 
Do not forget that the ADS-B system tries to "predict" the flight path in case it does not get the data fast enough.
In case the aircraft loses broadcast capability (or signal coverage) low and cannot update its position, the rescuers might be led to the wrong location first which would be based on the system's prediction of a straight flight path.
So an ELT sure would be still my primary focus for SAR once close to the approximate location.
 
chartbundle said:
The only current problem with FlightAware is that many stations(like mine) aren't yet setup for 978. When I get a free few hours I'll set that up. But I was just thinking if all these systems got together that would definitely be a valuable SAR asset as anyone can put up a receiver for $100 or so and a view of the sky. And should make the paranoid crowd even more paranoid.
Click to expand...

I really wish people wouldn't do that.

Just get a SPOT or something for SAR if you're that concerned.
 
Don't really know for sure but my guess is they'll be able get the information pretty quick. Whats in use now gets it kinda quick. When the call comes in to "see what you can find" they can get to the recorded data almost immediately and start looking. ADSB having the call sign "built in" should only make it faster.
 
Did someone suggest ADS-B over an ELT? Nah. But ADS-B tracking is accurate. And by the time a plane is missed the tracking data will be solid.
 
BigBadLou said:
Do not forget that the ADS-B system tries to "predict" the flight path in case it does not get the data fast enough.
In case the aircraft loses broadcast capability (or signal coverage) low and cannot update its position, the rescuers might be led to the wrong location first which would be based on the system's prediction of a straight flight path.
So an ELT sure would be still my primary focus for SAR once close to the approximate location.
Click to expand...
It's mostly likely that shouldn't happen. It should be the same as current technology. When the recorded data is looked at they can tell when it's "getting hits" and when it is "predicting"
 
Been on a number of searches where the raw radar data was analyzed and a search area established. Even primary radar, sans-transponder.

Even one brainiac who left KFLY westbound into the rocks and was transponderless and flew direct to Mr. Thunderstorm in the mountains, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

The radar data clearly showed multiple large pieces of the aircraft falling out of the sky they told us later.

But we hunted for the pieces and the body or body parts of Mr. Brilliant for three days.

Literally the only difference will be the unique ID.

Besides radar, the telecoms keep excellent signal strength and panel antenna direction data off of any cell sites. Numerous searches have been narrowed down via cell phone tower data. All the national folks who do the stuff need is the phone number. The carrier will dump the rest. Combined with topographical data and RF prediction software, it sometimes makes it real obvious where to look. Other times it just gives a general location of the last heard position of the phone. Which in those cases is usually aloft.
 
denverpilot said:
Been on a number of searches where the raw radar data was analyzed and a search area established. Even primary radar, sans-transponder.

Even one brainiac who left KFLY westbound into the rocks and was transponderless and flew direct to Mr. Thunderstorm in the mountains, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

The radar data clearly showed multiple large pieces of the aircraft falling out of the sky they told us later.

But we hunted for the pieces and the body or body parts of Mr. Brilliant for three days.

Literally the only difference will be the unique ID.

Besides radar, the telecoms keep excellent signal strength and panel antenna direction data off of any cell sites. Numerous searches have been narrowed down via cell phone tower data. All the national folks who do the stuff need is the phone number. The carrier will dump the rest. Combined with topographical data and RF prediction software, it sometimes makes it real obvious where to look. Other times it just gives a general location of the last heard position of the phone. Which in those cases is usually aloft.
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The unique ID provided via ADSB being the only difference will depend on how many radars get decommissioned in the coming years as satellite technology becomes more depended on.
 
luvflyin said:
The unique ID provided via ADSB being the only difference will depend on how many radars get decommissioned in the coming years as satellite technology becomes more depended on.
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There are no plans to do that.
 
luvflyin said:
The unique ID provided via ADSB being the only difference will depend on how many radars get decommissioned in the coming years as satellite technology becomes more depended on.
Click to expand...

Harold Rutila said:
There are no plans to do that.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Zero announced radar decommisionings, and radar remains primary.

Not kidding when I say there's literally no point for the $8B expenditure. Everything it does could have been done significantly better and cheaper without the identifier.
 
Yeah. Like the big VOR decommissioning list getting thinned out a little when they thought about it a little more. Not committing to space junk not having midairs or attacks is probably a good idea.
 
exncsurfer said:
Will the data generated by ads-b out be archived and available for search and rescue operations? The FAA's ads-b FAQ alludes to benefits of ATC to pinpoint last known positions. I'm just wondering how automated it might be. Like will all the data be archived and searchable and made available to SAR folks in a timely manner?

The complaints from some regarding the primary goal being surveillance got me wondering about this. Maybe at least it would benefit SAR? Even a plane not on flight following will have a last known good position in 'the system'.
Click to expand...
All the above notwithstanding, ADSB is not constrained by line of sight issues
 
denverpilot said:
At the power levels utilized and up around 1 GHz, absolutely it is. What are you talking about?
Click to expand...
My point was that ADSB would have more data available to search. That it would benefit SAR. I was figuring that because the satellites are "up there" and not on the ground like radar antennas, that there wouldn't be the blind spots there would be compared to radar. I guess there probably are areas of no ADSB coverage.
 
luvflyin said:
My point was that ADSB would have more data available to search. That it would benefit SAR. I was figuring that because the satellites are "up there" and not on the ground like radar antennas, that there wouldn't be the blind spots there would be compared to radar. I guess there probably are areas of no ADSB coverage.
Click to expand...

ADS-B via satellite is on a completely different band and system. It is not compatible with either Mode-S nor UAT. It's bandwidth limited even worse than those two, and is intended for overwater flight tracking. It's also currently only in test mode, and not certified for use for anything.

But if a carrier that got it for free desk the manufacturer has it, yeah... it'll help with an ocean search. ;)
 
BigBadLou said:
Do not forget that the ADS-B system tries to "predict" the flight path in case it does not get the data fast enough.
In case the aircraft loses broadcast capability (or signal coverage) low and cannot update its position, the rescuers might be led to the wrong location first which would be based on the system's prediction of a straight flight path.
So an ELT sure would be still my primary focus for SAR once close to the approximate location.
Click to expand...
Hell, no.

Radar forensics has been much, much more reliable and useful. ELTs can be destroyed and defeated easily.

The last successful search I was on found wreckage within 300 feet of the projected radar track. The last one, period, had good radar data until the aircraft entered a valley, but it was hopeless with 3 feet of new snow, even with snow machines and an aircraft known to have a 406 ELT.
 
James331 said:
I really wish people wouldn't do that.

Just get a SPOT or something for SAR if you're that concerned.
Click to expand...
Lots of people carry SPOT in the Sierra.

I have yet to participate in a search where it was a factor. It's all radar and cell phones, with an occasional ELT.

I suspect it has to do with the types of accidents we chase in the high mountains.
 
MAKG1 said:
Lots of people carry SPOT in the Sierra.

I have yet to participate in a search where it was a factor. It's all radar and cell phones, with an occasional ELT.

I suspect it has to do with the types of accidents we chase in the high mountains.
Click to expand...

Lots of places I go, at the altitudes I fly there are no cell, radar coverage, or even a ADSB tower in range, I've been carrying a GPS EPIRB, and been planning on doing the plug and play ACK 21.5 to 406 conversion.
 
ADSB contains so much information that it is useless to SAR - because at that point, there is no searching to be done. In many cases, they don't dispatch SAR anymore because they already know exactly where the ELT is and they will dispatch an LEO who will call for a FBO guy to shut off the ELT, a paramedic or a coroner as appropriate. If SAR is being called, it's because they don't have the ADSB information.

What can it do? Sometimes give you an accurate starting point, but that was frequent before. I wouldn't say it has no value, but it has much less than you might think.
 
It sounds like the benefit of ADS-B to search-and-rescue is to make it less likely to be necessary.
 
denverpilot said:
ADS-B via satellite is on a completely different band and system. It is not compatible with either Mode-S nor UAT. It's bandwidth limited even worse than those two, and is intended for overwater flight tracking. It's also currently only in test mode, and not certified for use for anything.

But if a carrier that got it for free desk the manufacturer has it, yeah... it'll help with an ocean search. ;)
Click to expand...
Gotcha. I guess I was looking ahead to 2020 or whenever it is that ADSB will start becoming used pretty much everywhere for ATC. When, maybe that should be if and when, that happens and someone is overdue and they get the call to do a search of their data, it will cover much more space than a search of Radar only data would. It may even make a difference now. There are ATC facilities already set up with ADSB. Even if the controllers arent actively using it yet, they may be recording it and be able search and get a hit on an ADSB airplane that would have otherwise been missed because it was below Radar coverage. I don't know, but there is probably someone around who does or can find out pretty easily from within. Current controllers????
 
luvflyin said:
Gotcha. I guess I was looking ahead to 2020 or whenever it is that ADSB will start becoming used pretty much everywhere for ATC. When, maybe that should be if and when, that happens and someone is overdue and they get the call to do a search of their data, it will cover much more space than a search of Radar only data would. It may even make a difference now. There are ATC facilities already set up with ADSB. Even if the controllers arent actively using it yet, they may be recording it and be able search and get a hit on an ADSB airplane that would have otherwise been missed because it was below Radar coverage. I don't know, but there is probably someone around who does or can find out pretty easily from within. Current controllers????
Click to expand...
Even now every ads-b ping is sent to a database. If you want a report on ads-b performance for a particular flight there is an FAA website where you can request the report. It takes about 30 minutes to get the report.

I'm sure that if you had access to the database it would be trivial to dump all the pings for a particular aircraft on a particular day. Of course if you choose to go with UAT anonymous mode then there would be a bit more work sorting out flight tracks.

Even flightaware has a large database of ping data. They could possibly sell access to their database.
 
And by the time the correct paperwork is filled out, and the correct parties and notified, papers are stamped with no less than 3 different stamps and the office of redundancy OKs it, the CAP commanders have all their costumes on and ribbons polished, police install no less than. 40 miles of do not cross tape somewhere, AND the data is finally released, you have probably already ether had enough time to kill a bear, build a cabin and now decided to walk home from the crash site, or you become animal turds.

Y'all don't actually think ADSB has jack to do with YOUR safety do you?
 
Clark1961 said:
Even now every ads-b ping is sent to a database. If you want a report on ads-b performance for a particular flight there is an FAA website where you can request the report. It takes about 30 minutes to get the report.

I'm sure that if you had access to the database it would be trivial to dump all the pings for a particular aircraft on a particular day. Of course if you choose to go with UAT anonymous mode then there would be a bit more work sorting out flight tracks.

Even flightaware has a large database of ping data. They could possibly sell access to their database.
Click to expand...
Pings. Thats much nicer than the "hit's" you get with radar. Hmm. Interegation, reply. Ping, pong. I can hear it now. "Are you getting a Pong light."
 
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