Adam officially gone

Ken Ibold

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
5,889
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
Adam filed for Chapter 7 today. Hate to see 'em go. They had GREAT catering at their AirVenture press conferences!
 
Ken Ibold said:
Adam filed for Chapter 7 today. Hate to see 'em go. They had GREAT catering at their AirVenture press conferences!
Click to expand...

So it's YOUR fault!! The cocktail weenies budget is what put them over the top! tsk tsk.. ;)
 
I'm really sad to here this. Kinna filled a niche in the market for a Cessna 414/421 size bird with a push/pull prop. No other recip. pressurized twins being made with that size cabin today. Oh well.

Best,

Dave
 
Tradition says, the primary way to create a successful airplane manufacturing company is to buy the assets from a failed one at cents on the dollar. This assumes, of course, that there is no world war intervening to provide massive financial subsidy to otherwise-struggling manufacturers.

Someone will step in and try to revive the type(s) by buying them out of the bankruptcy estate, and since it's a 7 (liquidation), the former stakeholders have essentially no say in what happens. It's all up to the Trustee appointed by the court.

Hmmm.... the PoA 700... has a nice sound to it. "Planes of America." Logo'd have to change...
 
Put a turbine pusher on the 500 fuse and you would have a winner......

I flew the A500 and it flies OK, not as nice as a C-421, but absolutely acceptable. The spar was in the wrong place in the cabin. It worked out better in the A700 configuration, but with a Big PT-6 in back it could push either fuselage.

Bummer,

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
Ken Ibold said:
Adam filed for Chapter 7 today. Hate to see 'em go. They had GREAT catering at their AirVenture press conferences!
Click to expand...
Great Caeser's Ghost, Ken! You had me thinking we lost Adam Zucker somehow!

Sheesh!
 
Greebo said:
Great Caeser's Ghost, Ken! You had me thinking we lost Adam Zucker somehow!

Sheesh!
Click to expand...


Now, see, that never occurred to me.

Maybe because I spoke with Adam Z about 3 hours ago? :D
 
I know, and there's new posts from him for the MC too - but STILL...
floored.gif
 
Greebo said:
I know, and there's new posts from him for the MC too - but STILL...
floored.gif
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing, Chuck, but then it clicked....that would be such a horrible way to tell us!!

"Adam's dead, deal with it...."

Yikes!
 
Another good idea in the toilet. Any chance Cessna wants more composite experience and a piston twin? Not bloody likely, I know. Hey, maybe Cirrus?

What a shame, I had high hopes for those aircraft. I was a bit put off at AOPA, where they had the airplane cabins open only to "invited guests." That kinda rubbed me the wrong way.
 
During the years I had my camera store the son of one of my regular customers was employed at Adam Aircraft. I used to get lots of tidbits and saw recurring photos of what was going on at the Adam facility. Sad to see the operation fail.

HR
 
Is anyone else here suspicious of lawyers communicating with each other outside a courtroom?




:goofy:
 
flyersfan31 said:
What a shame, I had high hopes for those aircraft. I was a bit put off at AOPA, where they had the airplane cabins open only to "invited guests." That kinda rubbed me the wrong way.
Click to expand...
That's a wear and tear issue that I think is understandable. It's not that hard to get "invited."
 
I heard the usefull load of the A500 was way under what was projected essentially making it a single seat aircraft with full fuel. Any truth to that? Ken?
 
Yesterday's Denver Post had a large article on other aviation companies; Cessna, Cirrus, Bombardier Learjet, Eclipse, et al; holding interviews and job fairs, especially for Adam Aircraft and ATG personnel. The article quoted Kate Dougherty, spokeswoman at Cirius, saying there is a "tremendous shortage of employees right now, especially of the engineering sort."

The article also said "Colorado's high-profile aircraft development industry has nearly disappeared in the span of three months with the suspension of work at Aviation Technology Group (ATG) ... followed by Adam Aircraft's layoffs..."

Best of luck to the all.
 
I think something had to give. I mean look a the market. Adam Aircraft, Cirrius Desgin, Piper Jet, Honda Jet, Eclipse Jet, Cessna Mustang. I just don't think the market can support all of them
 
Ken Ibold said:
That's a wear and tear issue that I think is understandable. It's not that hard to get "invited."
Click to expand...

Yeah, I see that, but having just climbed out of the Matrix, where I sat in all the seats including the pilot's seat (sans invitation) and a number of other aircraft, I had a hard time with Adam Aircraft saying no to me. Capital must have already been tight -- they must not have had the cash to pay for a cleaning crew.

It may not be that hard for the editor of an aviation journal to get invited inside, but as for us peons......:)
 
Ken Ibold said:
600 pounds cabin payload with full 220 gal fuel.
Click to expand...

Which I would like to point out is very close to what my P-Baron is. 650 with full fuel and just over 1,000 NM range. I can put in less fuel and carry another 150 pounds and still have almost 5 hours of range.

The Adam was cabin class (bigger than my P-Baron) and had just a bit less range. My POH says the P-Baron is a bit faster, but I'd never run my plane at those higher speeds and expect to make TBO on the engines (which we are 75 hours from TBO the way we run them).

Best,

Dave
 
Last edited:
Yikes! In Wiscasset, Maine, if the A500 were to take on 180 gal. at $4.55 per, that would be a tab of $819.00. That would take the bargain out of the $100 hamburger, wouldn't it?

HR
 
Speak a little louder, Bob, I couldn't quite recor... er... um... hear you.
 
AdamZ said:
I think something had to give. I mean look a the market. Adam Aircraft, Cirrius Design, Piper Jet, Honda Jet, Eclipse Jet, Cessna Mustang. I just don't think the market can support all of them
Click to expand...
I predict only three companies will survive beyond 2010. Cessna may be one of them but I won't make a wager on it. :)

Cirrus has the money, Piper doesn't.

Eclipse will continue to either goad its "buyers" into more money in order to produce a final, marketable product. Then, they won't have the cash to keep going. I still think they will be bought out. There's a market for what they have but will it ever get to the market on a survivable level at the current rate? :dunno:

Honda will be the modern-day Mitsubishi.
 
KennyFlys said:
I predict only three companies will survive beyond 2010. Cessna may be one of them but I won't make a wager on it. :)

Cirrus has the money, Piper doesn't.

Eclipse will continue to either goad its "buyers" into more money in order to produce a final, marketable product. Then, they won't have the cash to keep going. I still think they will be bought out. There's a market for what they have but will it ever get to the market on a survivable level at the current rate? :dunno:

Honda will be the modern-day Mitsubishi.
Click to expand...

You guys left out Diamond. I think they'll make it to 2010 especially given their focus on alternative fuel and efficiency. Not to mention a healthy product development cycle and the large cash injection from Canada.

Given the number of ads, I'd say Flying magazine got their share of the Adam Aircraft dibbs. I wonder how much longer the ads will run for a plane that's no longer for sale.
 
Last edited:
Don't feel bad, Piper did that to my wife and me with their Malibu mockup in Dayton in '85, but we did get to try on the CASA 212 on the ramp.

flyersfan31 said:
Yeah, I see that, but having just climbed out of the Matrix, where I sat in all the seats including the pilot's seat (sans invitation) and a number of other aircraft, I had a hard time with Adam Aircraft saying no to me. Capital must have already been tight -- they must not have had the cash to pay for a cleaning crew.

It may not be that hard for the editor of an aviation journal to get invited inside, but as for us peons......:)
Click to expand...
 
Ken Ibold said:
Adam filed for Chapter 7 today. Hate to see 'em go. They had GREAT catering at their AirVenture press conferences!
Click to expand...

Really? Never went to one of theirs. Eclipse has excellent food at their press events as well (as I'm sure you already know. ;))
 
AdamZ said:
I think something had to give. I mean look a the market. Adam Aircraft, Cirrius Desgin, Piper Jet, Honda Jet, Eclipse Jet, Cessna Mustang. I just don't think the market can support all of them
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Cirrus, Honda, Eclipse, Cessna looks like a much more reasonable list. Adam's already dead, Piper will be.
 
I hope Piper won't be dead anytime soon.

Piper and Cessna are the two candidates that seem to be in the best position in terms of actually delivering on their VLJ promises. Both know how to make airplanes. Eclipse is having nothing but problems, and I don't even know about Honda. Adam's failure, IMO, was inevitable. Maybe it's a silly notion, but I think small things such as a horrible company name (I mean, 'Adam', really?) and a very radical airframe design (kind of reminds me of the failure of the Beech Starship) just ain't going to cut it.

Let's not forget about Embraer and Epic. Both know how to make airplanes, and especially Embraer isn't going away. I think all these new VLJ products might filter down into the turbo'd twin markets and, with any luck, replace those $1M Barons/Senecas with something that isn't any more expensive yet much more capable.

-Felix
 
KennyFlys said:
Eclipse could afford to give away food? What did they serve, White Castle burgers?


:)
Click to expand...

Well, after giving away airplanes, the food seems downright cheap! And was seriously the best press food at AirVenture, by far. At least that I saw, I didn't go to Adam's event. Besides, Eclipse has a nice air-conditioned tent. :)
 
sba55 said:
I hope Piper won't be dead anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Me too, but I think their jet is too little, too late and the rest of their product line has gotten rather stale.

Piper should trim down and do what they do best, with the product line looking something like this:

1) A new-age Cub that's modernized and tailored to the Sport market.
2) A new Super Cub, maybe. (Both of these first two might be better served by Piper buying up Cubcrafters.)
3) Something in the Archer class. The Archer is a great airplane, or was... If you compare a late-70's Archer with the other late-70's designs, you have a very capable four-place single with good useful load (both of ours are slightly over 1000 pounds useful), economical to purchase and maintain, easy to fly... A great airplane. However, if you compare a brand-new Archer with the likes of the DA40... Who the heck would buy one any more? The DA40 is cheaper, 30-40 knots faster on the same fuel burn depending on the exact model and vintage, better glass (Garmin good, Avidyne not), better looks, better useful load, and pretty much eclipses the Archer in every possible measure. Piper should come up with a new design, maybe even based on the current Archer, that addresses some of the shortcomings compared to today's alternatives.
4) The 6X/Saratoga should be kept, or possibly replaced with airframes that would take advantage of whatever they come up with for the new-age Archer replacement. Piper has always been one of the strong players in the 6-seat single market.
5) The Meridian should be "fixed" as mentioned recently. Lose the magnesium, fix the seats, etc.

Oh, and hire some of Cirrus' marketing folks once you have some airplanes that you can actually sell. Piper has simply fallen too far behind with all these old designs and the latest stuff is too little, too late - Jumping into a very crowded market with a number of players already well ahead of them in the game, Piper needed to come up with something truly compelling to be competitive, and they simply haven't. Why would anyone wait for a PiperJet when they can have a Mustang today? Or a D-Jet a lot sooner? Or an Eclipse or Cirrus for a lot less money?

Piper and Cessna are the two candidates that seem to be in the best position in terms of actually delivering on their VLJ promises.
Click to expand...

Cessna already has. Piper, I'm afraid, is far from it and I don't know that they'll survive long enough to get it certified.

Both know how to make airplanes.
Click to expand...

Cessna, however, knows how to make JETS. Piper does not.

Eclipse is having nothing but problems, and I don't even know about Honda.
Click to expand...

I think Eclipse still has a chance to make it. Honda will be interesting to watch, but considering their numerous successes in a lot of other industries I wouldn't be surprised to see them do well. It's certainly a very nice design.

Adam's failure, IMO, was inevitable. Maybe it's a silly notion, but I think small things such as a horrible company name (I mean, 'Adam', really?) and a very radical airframe design (kind of reminds me of the failure of the Beech Starship) just ain't going to cut it.
Click to expand...

Yup. Still would have been nice to see them make it.

Let's not forget about Embraer and Epic. Both know how to make airplanes, and especially Embraer isn't going away. I think all these new VLJ products might filter down into the turbo'd twin markets and, with any luck, replace those $1M Barons/Senecas with something that isn't any more expensive yet much more capable.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Epic seems to be getting real results at an amazing pace.

WRT the Seneca... Heck, the DA42 performs similarly and can accomplish many (thought not all) of the Seneca's missions, for lower operating cost. If the rumored DA52 makes it to production, the Seneca is all but toast.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Me too, but I think their jet is too little, too late and the rest of their product line has gotten rather stale.

Piper should trim down and do what they do best, with the product line looking something like this:
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good list to me, especially your points about the Meridian. Like you said, Piper is pretty good at making good 6-seat singles. What's really missing IMO are new and _improved_ designs. I'd like to see a turbo'd, FIKI 6 seat single with good payload. Not just a rehash of the Saratoga. If they could pull that off at a reasonable price, they'd have a pretty large customer base. Seems to me that one of the big problems with today's new 6-seat singles is that they aren't any better than the ones they made 20 years ago. In fact, they're worse, seeing as though the payload is worse and options such as FIKI aren't really available.

flyingcheesehead said:
Oh, and hire some of Cirrus' marketing folks once you have some airplanes that you can actually sell. Piper has simply fallen too far behind with all these old designs and the latest stuff is too little, too late - Jumping into a very crowded market with a number of players already well ahead of them in the game, Piper needed to come up with something truly compelling to be competitive, and they simply haven't. Why would anyone wait for a PiperJet when they can have a Mustang today? Or a D-Jet a lot sooner? Or an Eclipse or Cirrus for a lot less money?
Click to expand...
Exactly right. There's just not really any technical innovation.

flyingcheesehead said:
Cessna, however, knows how to make JETS. Piper does not.
Click to expand...
True enough. But they do have the basic knowledge base. I don't think they'd make beginner's mistakes like that window on the Eclipse...

flyingcheesehead said:
Agreed. Epic seems to be getting real results at an amazing pace.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm really excited about Epic. They're not outpacing themselves and seem to be taken a good approach toward things. And the specs on the Turboprop/Jet actually look good.

flyingcheesehead said:
WRT the Seneca... Heck, the DA42 performs similarly and can accomplish many (thought not all) of the Seneca's missions, for lower operating cost. If the rumored DA52 makes it to production, the Seneca is all but toast.
Click to expand...
The DA42 is TINY, though. I seem some of them around our airport, and they don't seem any bigger than a DA42. Not really comfortable for 4...

The DA52 is definitely interesting to watch, especially if they get the price right. It seems to me that there's real competition building in the VLJ market and that might get the prices down. Given the choice between a new Baron for $1M and a VLJ with FIKI and pressurization, I'd take the VLJ...maybe we'll finally get new small twins with interesting X/C capabilities (turbo'd, FIKI, pressurized).

Let's hope Piper makes it! :cheerswine:

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
The DA42 is TINY, though. I seem some of them around our airport, and they don't seem any bigger than a DA42. Not really comfortable for 4...
Click to expand...

I assume you meant "any bigger than a DA40" and I think you're right. Airframe is mostly the same.

However, the DA40/42 only LOOK tiny from the outside. Their unique shape makes the interior quite comfortable. I'm 6'4" and *cough* well, kinda fat. I actually found that I fit VERY well in the BACK seat of a DA40! I was very surprised as in most back seats I'm hunched over significantly to the point of it being very uncomfortable and unpleasant. So, while the Diamonds LOOK small, they are actually quite comfortable for four adults, and the ease of ingress/egress is excellent with three of the four seats having direct entry (both sides through the canopy, left side back door.) Only the right rear seat pax needs to do any maneuvering to get in their seat.

It's a heckuva nice bird, and the DA50 is going to be interesting to watch as well.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I assume you meant "any bigger than a DA40" and I think you're right. Airframe is mostly the same.
Click to expand...
Oops. Yes :redface:

flyingcheesehead said:
However, the DA40/42 only LOOK tiny from the outside. Their unique shape makes the interior quite comfortable. I'm 6'4" and *cough* well, kinda fat. I actually found that I fit VERY well in the BACK seat of a DA40! I was very surprised as in most back seats I'm hunched over significantly to the point of it being very uncomfortable and unpleasant. So, while the Diamonds LOOK small, they are actually quite comfortable for four adults, and the ease of ingress/egress is excellent with three of the four seats having direct entry (both sides through the canopy, left side back door.) Only the right rear seat pax needs to do any maneuvering to get in their seat.

It's a heckuva nice bird, and the DA50 is going to be interesting to watch as well.
Click to expand...
Well, can't disagree with any of that. I've got about 50 hours in DA40s and they are fun planes to fly. And, as you said, ingress/egress is incredibly easy.

But, comparing the DA42 to something like a Baron/Bonanza, the space just isn't nearly as good. In the Bonanza without the 3rd row of seats, the people in the back can almost lie down flat. There's so much luggage space that I was able to fit 5 full-sized suitcases in the back + 2 passengers. Just not going to happen in the 42/40....

That's not really what those planes are made for, I know. I just want some serious, HP, X/C planes that can replace the aging Seneca/Baron fleet. If the DA52 has got the space, awesome!

-Felix
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top