Accelerated IFR Recommendations

[cocolos]

I know this subject has been debated before but I think this is what would best suite me and my schedule. What programs would you recommend? I will be using my own airplane. I am in the Sacramento area.

 

[AggieMike88]

Many to choose from. Frequently discussed (and liked by many) are:

Professional Instrument Courses (PIC) - www.iflyifr.com
GATTS (General Aviation Training & Testing Service) - www.gatts.org
Angell Aviation - www.angellaviation.com

Notes:

PIC: They send the instructor to you, and price includes instructor and an approved desktop sim goal is to finish in 10 days, but correct emphasis is to do it right and don't shortcut, even if it means an extra day or two. Ron Levy (a long standing member here) is an instructor for PIC.

GATTS: Here you go to them in Manhattan, Kansas. You can train in your plane, or use theirs. Many comments on the boards from graduates saying good things about the instructors providing real world practical training and tips.

Angell Aviation: This is Jesse Angell, a moderator here. I believe Nate (Denver Pilot) got his instrument ticket from Jesse, so I'll let him add to the information.

 

[poadeleted20]

As an instructor for Professional Instrument Courses, it's pretty obvious who I'd recommend. PIC has been in the business of intensive IFR training for more than 30 years and has a program carefully developed and crafted over those decades. The instructor corps is made up of experienced professionals with more than 5000 hours each, so you'll be learning from someone who's "been there and done that", and will be happy to get you up in real instrument conditions. Your instructor will come to you and train you in your own plane as well as the portable simulator s/he will bring with him/her.

For more on PIC, including client testimonials, see http://www.iflyifr.com.

 

[simtech]

Is PIC part 141? And I assume you need your own plane since they come to you??

 

[poadeleted20]

Is PIC part 141?

No -- can't do that with our business model. We train in planes we don't own/control, and we train in places like hotel rooms and folks' homes and hangars all over the country. 141 schools can't do that -- all facilities and aircraft must be specially inspected and approved on their 141 paperwork.

And I assume you need your own plane since they come to you??

No. We have deals with several FBO's around the country to use their aircraft when the client doesn't have one of his/her own.

 

[ja_user]

PIC will send someone to you, I haven't heard anything bad about any of them.

GATTS you will travel to them and be put up in their lodging, etc. I have heard good things.

I don't know what Jesse does, but I would not hesitate to recommend him as an instructor either way. YOu may have to spend a week in LNK, which isn't much different than MHK.

Part 61 in your local area can probably pull off a short course, but you may very well the test case. YOu won't know if you are until the end of the course.

 

[poadeleted20]

Part 61 in your local area can probably pull off a short course, but you may very well the test case. YOu won't know if you are until the end of the course.

I'd been a flight instructor for over 30 years when I started with PIC, and discovered that despite two stints as an instructor with Part 141 flight schools, I didn't know diddley about doing an intensive IR course. The instructor needs a very solid syllabus and support material, and to be committed to it all day, every day for the entire time. Flight schools and instructors with no prior experience are not going to learn that overnight, and instructors with other students are not likely to tell the rest of them to go away for ten days. If you want to do this, go to an outfit which makes it their main business, be it PIC, GATTS, or similar intensive training specialist.

 

[simtech]

It sounds like a great opportunity! Unfortunately, I have to use part 141 to utilize my post 9/11 VA benefits.

 

[Jaybird180]

It sounds like a great opportunity! Unfortunately, I have to use part 141 to utilize my post 9/11 VA benefits.

Report back on your findings. Money aside, I'm angling to make myself available under Ron's tutelage.

So I looked, and looked and still didn't find anything. If I did find something, I may still question the value vs paying from my own pocket.

 

[poadeleted20]

It sounds like a great opportunity! Unfortunately, I have to use part 141 to utilize my post 9/11 VA benefits.

I don't know of any intensive instrument rating training provider with Part 141 approval. Further, the 141 IR curriculum requires a minimum of 35 hours of fight training plus 35 hours of ground training. My experience teaching 10-day IR courses suggests that is not feasible on a 10-day start-to-checkride-complete basis unless you're working 12 hours a day, and that will bury you in fatigue before you get past Day 7.

 

[darrell]

It looks like some accelerated programs require you to already have varying amounts of instrument time. I would think that it's a bad idea to get your first 10 hours (beyond the 3 I got from my PP training) of instrument time without an instructor. So is the assumption here that one would receive 10 hours from a CFII with no real intention of continuing with that instructor, followed by enrollment in the accelerated course?

I guess I'm just wondering about how people are expected or suggested to go about receiving the prerequisite instrument time prior to starting an accelerated course with such a requirement.

I am very interested in an accelerated IR training program. However, since I travel for two months at a time, if I can't complete it in about a month to a month and a half, I will go overseas for two months with no flying at all...well, no time at the controls, that is. And judging from the effect on my PP training, I'd like to avoid that. (It took me 8 months and 60 hours for my PP...4 months in the States, 4 months overseas idling).

Oh and I do not have my own airplane, which is an additional wrinkle that my wife won't let me iron out at the moment.

 

[poadeleted20]

It looks like some accelerated programs require you to already have varying amounts of instrument time.

That is correct. GATTS requires 10 hours of instrument time before enrolling in their 7-day program. PIC has no such requirement for its 10-day program.

I would think that it's a bad idea to get your first 10 hours (beyond the 3 I got from my PP training) of instrument time without an instructor.

Having dealt with the results of that, I agree completely.

So is the assumption here that one would receive 10 hours from a CFII with no real intention of continuing with that instructor, followed by enrollment in the accelerated course?

That may be GATTS' idea, but not PIC's. In any event, I'd rather have you with no preconceived ideas, techniques, or procedures and build you from scratch over 10 days.

I guess I'm just wondering about how people are expected or suggested to go about receiving the prerequisite instrument time prior to starting an accelerated course with such a requirement.

Beats me.

I am very interested in an accelerated IR training program. However, since I travel for two months at a time, if I can't complete it in about a month to a month and a half, I will go overseas for two months with no flying at all...well, no time at the controls, that is. And judging from the effect on my PP training, I'd like to avoid that. (It took me 8 months and 60 hours for my PP...4 months in the States, 4 months overseas idling).

If you are a competent VFR pilot with the IR passed and at least 40, preferably 45, hours of XC PIC time and the written passed, you can do it with PIC in 10 days even if the only instrument time you have going in is the 3 hours from PP.

Oh and I do not have my own airplane, which is an additional wrinkle that my wife won't let me iron out at the moment.

PIC has deals with several FBO's to use their planes with our instructors. Call Donn Heikkila at 800-I-FLY-IFR for more information.

 

[flyingron]

I did PIC, they were going to send me some crazy CFI from Salisbury but he was busy so I got one from Tennessee instead. I did it in eight days (time off for good behavior). I suspect it's not for everyone, but it was great for me as the instructor could feed me stuff as fast as I could take it (he said I was the first student he had that he thought he was holding back, but I'd been doing all the book work/technical stuff for years as well as having the VFR operation and use of navigation systems for my plane wired).

Do not believe the mention that you might be able to do other stuff during the training. It's pretty hard eight hour days, sometimes with homework. You'll not feel up to doing work in addition.

 

[darrell]

If you are a competent VFR pilot with the IR passed and at least 40, preferably 45, hours of XC PIC time and the written passed, you can do it with PIC in 10 days even if the only instrument time you have going in is the 3 hours from PP.

I should start a new thread asking for the definition of "competent". One of the answers is bound to match my competency level.

Anyway, I only have 33 hours of PIC cross-country (probably 36 by my next overseas trip). So I'm still working on that part. Thanks for the info!

 

[darrell]

Do not believe the mention that you might be able to do other stuff during the training. It's pretty hard eight hour days, sometimes with homework. You'll not feel up to doing work in addition.

For this reason, I like the idea of traveling away from home for the training. 4-year olds have a way of being persistently distracting.

 

[flyingron]

The PIC instructors can meet you anywhere. You can fly to where they live and pay for your room rather than theirs. Since I live about an hour from the field, we did three days at my house doing simulator and book work and the other time just doing our ground work either in my hangar, at a table in the FBO, or at a local restaurant.

 

[happypilot876]

I went out to Sheble (http://shebleaviation.com) for their 10-day IFR course, and was very happy with both the training & the result: passed first time, have been flying IFR now for 12 years.

At the time planes & procedure trainer were old but well-maintained, and the local hotel accommodations (on the Sheble side of the river at least) were spartan, but that just left more time for studying. Each day had a mix of ground school + flying, or ground school + procedure trainer.

A good friend recently tried PIC and unfortunately had a quite disappointing experience. The instructor they sent was not a good fit with him on personality or teaching-style, so after several increasingly frustrating days, my friend pulled the plug.

After he complained to the home office, PIC eventually offered to comp him a couple of days with another instructor, but the whole experience was so frustrating & dissatisfying that despite the significant $$ and time he already invested with PIC, he's choosing to go to Sporty's for their finish-up program instead.

That's an n of 1, so don't make your decision on that alone, but consider that your success with any program will depend to some extent on how well the instructor works with & gets along with you. Going to a flight school should give you the option of switching to another instructor mid-stream if you don't get along with the first one.

- Josh

 

[denverpilot]

Angell Aviation: This is Jesse Angell, a moderator here. I believe Nate (Denver Pilot) got his instrument ticket from Jesse, so I'll let him add to the information.

Hard to say anything other than "satisfied customer". Left Nebraska with more Actual than I'll see in a lifetime here in the West, and the ticket.

Already had a strong sense of how getting the ticket vs keeping current is two completely different things, and with the craziness of my life right now, I know I'm not legally or mentally current to be in the soup. But I'm convinced Jesse coached the right basics into my head to fall back on when I'm ready to get current again.

(My personal goal has always been to at least maintain legal currency on all ratings at all times, but this year that has been an utter fail on my part. A death in the family, and a house move being the extenuating circumstances. Once we have the house sold I will be scheduling flight time to beat myself back into preparedness.)

I suspect the other CFIIs mentioned in the thread are very good. Circumstance led to a chance to get it done with Jesse, so that's where I ended up.

I wouldn't have had any qualms about hiring Ron or anyone else here who's in this line of work, really.

I do think its important you get references and talk first to anyone you're going to lock yourself in an aircraft with for days, though. Jesse may or may not know this but I asked around of various pilots here who'd flown with him for those references.

One pilot in particular said words that made it a "done deal" for me to contact him.

You need to trust your CFII. They're teaching you a somewhat unnatural skillset that will be the basis (mixed with weather decision-making) that can easily be the difference between a long and happy life, and your friends mourning your death.

 

[poadeleted20]

For this reason, I like the idea of traveling away from home for the training. 4-year olds have a way of being persistently distracting.

While the "we come to you" concept is a big marketing point with PIC, I find we make better progress when the trainee comes to me. As always, YMMV.

 

[poadeleted20]

A good friend recently tried PIC and unfortunately had a quite disappointing experience. The instructor they sent was not a good fit with him on personality or teaching-style, so after several increasingly frustrating days, my friend pulled the plug.

After he complained to the home office, PIC eventually offered to comp him a couple of days with another instructor, but the whole experience was so frustrating & dissatisfying that despite the significant $$ and time he already invested with PIC, he's choosing to go to Sporty's for their finish-up program instead.

That's an n of 1, so don't make your decision on that alone,

Just got back from picking up for another PIC instructor when there was such a misfit. The client was back in training with me within 48 hours of the decision to change instructors. We were doing fine until the trainee came down with stomach flu, but before I left she'd already booked me to come back next month to finish.

As always, YMMV, but I think the misfits with PIC are pretty rare, and the inability to fix the problem to the client's satisfaction even rarer. And once in a very long while, there are clients who cannot be satisfied by any instructor -- had one of those about six years ago. That guy (with a vacuum-powered 6-pack) felt that partial panel was a waste of his time and wasn't interested in working on timed turns and VOR interception/tracking with the AI/HI covered. The "Law of Readiness" applies in cases like that.

 

[cocolos]

this must vary between instructors but Ron at PIC how time is done in the simulator vs time in airplane? Also you get to do some actual?

 

[flyingron]

I suspect it also has to do with the student. The PIC curriculum (to my rememberence is).

A morning of introduction and learning command-performance on the simulator for a half a dozen regimes of flight. The afternoon develops the numbers for the same regimes in the real plane in the afternoon.

Days 2,3, and 4 are bookwork/simulator work exclusively.

After that we put the simulator away because for my situation it was easier to do in the plane. However, the simulator is available in case it is desired.

 

[AggieMike88]

I find we make better progress when the trainee comes to me.

What creates this?

 

[AggieMike88]

this must vary between instructors but Ron at PIC how time is done in the simulator vs time in airplane? Also you get to do some actual?

If you ask, a training plan will be shared with you that outlines what each day will entail. Ron did this for me and a buddy since the two of us were considering a "buddy tag team" training approach (one of us is in the saddle getting trained while the other is the observer). The plan had the split between classroom, sim, and flying activities.

Re: Actual IMC. Ron said that we would take advantage of any appropriate and safe IMC that would present itself.

I'll add that I've talked with Donn H. @ PIC a few times to get questions answered and found him very helpful in explaining how PIC works for the airmen. I encourage anyone who wants more data on PIC to call him.

 

[gprellwitz]

While the "we come to you" concept is a big marketing point with PIC, I find we make better progress when the trainee comes to me. As always, YMMV.

What creates this?

My presumption would be that it gets you away from your everyday distractions. I'm interested in Ron's response!

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I have only anecdotal experience through two acquaintances. The first went through PIC and recommended the second to the program. Both were very happy with the program and the instructor. My opinion is that if that type of training works for you then go for it. I just wonder if the high speed assimilation of the knowledge would quickly deteriorate if not reinforced with practical application soon after.

 

[poadeleted20]

this must vary between instructors but Ron at PIC how time is done in the simulator vs time in airplane?

Since we're using ATD's, we can only use 10 hours in that towards the total of 40. Usually need about 23-25 in the plane to do the rest, but could need a couple more if you come in with only the PP 3 hours of instrument time in order to get to 40.

Also you get to do some actual?

If the weather permits. Personally, I don't do TRW's or icing, and don't take trainees up when the weather at the home field is forecast less than about 600-2 or so (less if home field has a precision approach) -- too much chance of getting locked out.

 

[poadeleted20]

What creates this?

It varies by client. The issue is their ability to shut out the distractions of home, family, and/or job. Those get in the way. Many can do that, but many can't. If they're away from home, it's easier to minimize the distractions. In some cases, we've gone to a "neutral court", especially in the winter, when flying south provides better assurance of being able to fly. Had one guy a couple of winters ago who lived in NJ. We headed for NC for a week of warmer weather and no ice.