AA pilot to pax: "You can't see the stripes"?

I have had a couple bad experiences on AA. I now primarily fly SWA and United and I fly around once a week for work. Other airlines have much better customer service. With SWA, I have accidentally missed a flight and the gate agent rebooked it right there (two stops, but still got there that day). With AA, they cancelled a flight on me last minute. I tried rebooking on the phone and they told me they couldn't do that, that I had to line up at the airport. By the time I got to the front of the line (hours) there weren't any more flights that night. I, personally, will never fly AA again. I have not had such an experience with the other carriers and I fly commercial a lot.
 
EGPWS said:
1) Well they haven't responded to my online request for customer service either. I got an automated canned message from a "Sean Bentel", and no way to reply back.
2) I'm not asking them to perform miracles. Understood that they don' t have spare planes sitting around in case of cancellations, also can understand that since they pack every flight full there is no way they could have put me on the last flight out that evening. What is not acceptable is them not giving me a full refund.
3) I submitted a DOT complaint just now. Thanks for advice. But letter to CEO would truly be a 'write in vain'.
4) I'm still going to do everything in my power, exercise all my rights, in order to get every penny back. It is not just about the money, more about the principle.
5) Don't know how to use Twitter.
6) I already did allow for a contingency. That is why I planned to fly in that night, then sleep at hotel, to meet friend the very next morning. There was also an evening /later flight, had AA not jammed it full with zero empty seats I could have made that one even considering the 6PM flight they canceled at the very last moment. How much more of a contingency should I allow? A whole extra two days for a one day trip? Had AA allowed for the similar or commensurate level of "contingency" that I already did, then I would have made it that night and there wouldn't even be an issue.
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Clearly you didn't understand the meaning of "trip in vain". Do a google search as it relates specifically to AA (or other airlines).

Also read, and fully understand, their Contract of Carriage, which you agreed to when you bought the tickets. You can search for that online, too. It contains their obligations to you should things go awry.

You should also read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...209d84-e1f2-11e4-81ea-0649268f729e_story.html . Extrapolate a bit to your situation.

And really, seriously, you'll get better results if you're not accusatory (unless, of course, you're a lawyer and intend to sue on your own behalf, in which case they'll lawyer up, too).

By the way, AA had a load factor of 82.4% for domestic flights in 2014. That means, on AVERAGE, every flight went out with 82.4% of the seats full, some completely full, some less than average. On a 140 seat airplane, it means, on average, that 25 seats will be empty and 115 will be filled. If they cancel a flight, those 115 people need to be reaccomodated - it'll take 5 flights to burn off the backlog. If you had a full-fare ticket or were EXP, they MIGHT accommodate you on another airline (or not) at their discretion - but if you're not a "high value customer", they're not going to make any exceptions.
 
cowman said:
I has always assumed non-refundable tickets meant there was no refund if YOU canceled your trip. If it was their fault anything short of a full refund is completely unacceptable.
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No kidding. Although the OP bought the tickets through Orbitz which might change things.
 
cowman said:
I has always assumed non-refundable tickets meant there was no refund if YOU canceled your trip. If it was their fault anything short of a full refund is completely unacceptable.

IMHO it's basically fraud if they don't deliver and the airline should face legal consequences if they fail to refund the money in a timely manner.

Good luck actually dealing with them though. They don't care. Some great info on becoming a pilot and flying yourself around is available on this site. We can't do squat about the crappy airlines but we can tell you all about how to fly.
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Well, they're governed by their Contract of Carriage - it's a contract of adhesion that you agree to when you buy the ticket - and any Federal regulations. At the moment, there aren't any DoT regs that require refunds, but most airlines do it either to follow their CoC or to ensure customer goodwill.

If OP approached the airline with the venom shown here, I can fully understand if they don't want him to fly with them again. At least they didn't go as far as UA did with this security expert: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ned-United-flight-tweeted-systems-hacked.html
 
It's been a while since I read the AA contract of carriage, but it used to be if they couldn't get you to your destination within four hours of scheduled arrival, you could cancel your trip and get a refund.

I also seem to recall reading somewhere that small claims court is an option as well.
 
I do have to admit... I only have 1.6 million miles on American and have been ExPlat for 12 of the last 15 years.

United is much less, only 750 thousand miles and was 1K for three or four years.

I'd rather be stabbed in the chest than fly on Southwest.

Please, Mr OP... go fly Southwest. And complain about airlines somewhere else.
 
well it wasnt the most warm and welcoming intro
 
rolivi said:
I do have to admit... I only have 1.6 million miles on American and have been ExPlat for 12 of the last 15 years.

United is much less, only 750 thousand miles and was 1K for three or four years.

I'd rather be stabbed in the chest than fly on Southwest.

Please, Mr OP... go fly Southwest. And complain about airlines somewhere else.
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I fly Southwest a lot. They do what they do well and their customer service is excellent. I fly primarily in the U.S., though. Internationally I have only used them for a trip to Cabo and obviously they don't do much beyond that at this point. I fly United for most flights that I can't use SWA and while United has treated me well, their flights book up and sometimes with even good advanced notice I end up in a middle seat (that doesn't happen on SWA). I do like the economy plus seating on UA, though. Obviously, with as many miles as you have logged, you are flying internationally and SWA isn't an option.
 
EGPWS said:
What happened to the golden age of air travel? I remember reading about hypersonic passenger planes on Popular Science back in the day. What happened? Planes aren't getting any faster, aren't getting any bigger, and Airlines aren't getting any friendlier.

Why does AA have to pack every single flight 100% with no empty seats? Why such ruthless and cruel and inhumane chasing of profit margins? If they had a few spare planes around this flight cancellation thing could have been easily resolved. If they hired more customer service agents there wouldn't be a line wrapped around half the terminal. What happened to basic humanity and any reasonable semblance of customer service?
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You're still living in the past, "the golden age of airline travel" man, that was over 30 years ago.
Time to wake up and realize the good old days of airline travel are only memories. Today it's the sardine can, cattle car experience.
 
JHW said:
who the heck locks themselves into a 1-day schedule using an airline? especially a US domestic airline? If I have to get there on time, I drive or fly beechcraft. Airlines are for trips that are so long they are worth hedging an extra day or 2 into the schedule.
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Sometimes you have little choice. I had a competition Sunday in Rochester last year and had to be at Lakeland noon Monday. Oddly though it was snowing in Rochester, my flight got cancelled do to t-storms at EWR (where we were connecting). First ticket dweeb rebooks me to Orlando (was initially going through Tampa). Great, go through security, pull out the computer, cancel hotel in Tampa, rebook in Orlando, ditto rental car (lose my deal I had on the Tampa car). About the time I finish this I check the flights. Now my Orlando flight is two hours late (and likely to miss the connection). Go to find the airline rep...there's nobody on this side of security. Dig around one of their podiums and find the phone number for the ticket counter and call them.

Finally someone comes back. He can't find another flight. Can get me to IAD (great, I live blocks off the end of IAD's runways) but no flight in the morning to TPA or ORL. Finally find a flight through CLT.

Airlines do an absolute crappy job of handling reroutes. I can understand that weather is outside of their control, but they can certainly do a better job of notifications (especially given technology these days) and handling switching.

The OPs problem is probably not helped by the fact that he was almost certainly dealing with disgruntled workers who are now in their fourth buyout in their careers which resulted in not only a reduction in benefits and work conditions but a larger erosion in customer service attitudes.
 
EGPWS said:
What happened to the golden age of air travel?
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The internet.
And the age of entitlement.
Everyone wants the absolute cheapest fare for themselves, regardless of the cost to provide that seat, and the internet enables them to find an airline that will sell a seat for a nickel less than the other guy. The airlines save money by hiring people to figure out new ways to cut corners and enhance revenue.
 
EGPWS said:
But when newbie airlines like Harmony airlines came around and tried to cater to a segment of the flying public that cared about these things and were willing to pay a premium for it, companies like AA ran them to the ground by intentionally underpricing/undercutting their routes.
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Unfortunately proving that there was not enough of a segment of the flying public that cared and was willing to pay a premium for it.
 
rolivi said:
I do have to admit... I only have 1.6 million miles on American and have been ExPlat for 12 of the last 15 years.

United is much less, only 750 thousand miles and was 1K for three or four years.

I'd rather be stabbed in the chest than fly on Southwest.

Please, Mr OP... go fly Southwest. And complain about airlines somewhere else.
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3 million on Delta and 1.3 million on AA. Explat for 8 of the last 10, top tier in Delta before that. And some on UA, though a couple of experiences have soured me to them (to AA & DL's benefit).

Southwest is fine: you know what you're going to get, it's delivered consistently, and the customer service is good. One of the best features is that you don't lose money on non-refundable tickets - it goes into your online account. I commuted weekly between the DC area and San Antonio for almost 2 years. It was a connection on AA or DL (UA had some non-stop regional jets from IAD, but that's torture compared to a 737). Southwest had non-stops. After a couple of cancellations & late flights, I started buying Southwest as "backup", rolling the money over week to week. After 3 major blown connections left me driving from DFW to SAT at midnight, I started taking the Southwest non-stops (which greatly improved my quality of life).

Oh, and if you're going to be stuck in a coach seat anyway, you're as well off on Southwest. If you get upgraded regularly (as Explat you should), then it's a different story.
 
If you're not getting traction with orbitz or AA, dispute the charges (both the seat and the ticket cost) with your CC provider.

At least for my flights i tend to find the resellers (orbitz, travelocity, etc) to not be cheaper and definatly not worth the hassle of dealing with a middle man, as they are far from a personal travel agent.
 
My apologies if this has been mentioned before, but have you posted anything to Flyertalk? That is probably the droid you're looking for, rather than PoA. Post to the American AAdvantage forum.

Having been an AA frequent flyer, including Executive Platinum for a few years, I can tell you that their poor service has become worse over the years. I am now of the opinion that if the flight I'm booked simply departs within 20 - 30 minutes of the scheduled time, it's a good flight. That's how low my standards have become. Crappy attitudes, broken lavatory, etc., I don't care. Just get me out close to my scheduled time.
 
The good news is that customer service on 1CX is AWESOME! She always leaves whenever I want, and I've yet to have negative feedback from anyone in the right seat.

If I can just do 400kts on 6 gallons I'd never fly commercial again.

Until then, I'll have to suffer not getting upgraded from time to time. :)

www.robolivier.com/n1cx
 
rolivi said:
And complain about airlines somewhere else.
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You've posted a 'go away' comment at least twice now. You don't have to read the thread if you're not interested in the topic.

To the OP: I don't think you're going to have any luck with a full refund. However, I'm glad you posted this. I've since read the Contract Terms for my upcoming flight.
 
Why wouldn't the OP get his money back? He bought a ticket and AA canceled the flight and wouldn't rebook him. If that's correct, it would be like walking into Best Buy to purchase a computer, giving them your credit card, the salesman saying "nah, we've decided not to give you your computer but charging you anyway".
Unless I missed something? Did they offer to rebook for the next day? If that's the case than you may be SOL.

Disputing the charge with your CC is a good option.
 
I'm having trouble believing that AA didn't rebook the flight. What probably happened (and is not being told here) is that when OP's flight got cancelled he/she was rebooked the next day on another flight or was given a non-direct option. Of course this is useless for a single day trip... but that is why you don't book single day trips if you absolutely have to be somewhere. Especially on a long leg like DFW/SEA. What else do you expect them to do? They had to cancel the flight because of weather or maintenance issues and then they have to rebook everyone. The people with the highest status get the better flights first. When they run out, you end up being pushed to non-direct flights or the next day. It sucks, but that's the way the real world works.

This rant is kind of strange on a GA forum. Many of us fly to escape these very problems you're talking about. AA is really no worse or better than any airline. They all have these issues. I just wish AA had non-geriatric flight attendants. :D
 
This kind of thing is why I never book a flight or hotel through anything but the actual company's web site.

As soon as you book through any third party then the actual service providers just points at the broker and says "this is their problem, go away".
 
Usually this situation is referred to a 'Trip in Vain' . I've had this a few times for same day business trips, where the morning flight was either delayed enough or cancelled to make the trip usefull. I've never had a problem declaring it a trip in vain and getting a full refund as the CS agent could clearly see the return flight on the same ticket. In that case they can't book you past your return flight without re booking your return.

as for your particular case the AA CoC has this for involuntary refunds
http://www.aa.com/i18n/customerServ...conditionsOfCarriage.jsp&locale=it_IT#RefundsInvoluntary Refunds

In the event the refund is required because of American's failure to operate on schedule or refusal to transport, the following refund will be made directly to you -

  1. If the ticket is totally unused, the full amount paid (with no service charge or refund penalty), or
  2. If the ticket is partially used, the applicable fare for the unused segment(s).
American shall not be obligated to refund any portion(s) of a ticket which does not reflect a confirmed reservation on an American flight involved in a schedule irregularity, unless such ticket was issued by American.
Whether the refund is voluntary or involuntary, American reserves the right to refuse to make any refund in a currency other than the currency of purchase or in a country other than country of purchase.
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kjwalker01 said:
My apologies if this has been mentioned before, but have you posted anything to Flyertalk? That is probably the droid you're looking for, rather than PoA. Post to the American AAdvantage forum.
.
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ethosunum said:
:thumbsup:Seconded. This is their bread and butter. Well that and complex award flights.
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Yep. Though he may get even less sympathy there, at least from some of the participants.

narchee said:
I'm having trouble believing that AA didn't rebook the flight. What probably happened (and is not being told here) is that when OP's flight got cancelled he/she was rebooked the next day on another flight or was given a non-direct option. Of course this is useless for a single day trip... but that is why you don't book single day trips if you absolutely have to be somewhere. Especially on a long leg like DFW/SEA. What else do you expect them to do? They had to cancel the flight because of weather or maintenance issues and then they have to rebook everyone. The people with the highest status get the better flights first. When they run out, you end up being pushed to non-direct flights or the next day. It sucks, but that's the way the real world works.

This rant is kind of strange on a GA forum. Many of us fly to escape these very problems you're talking about. AA is really no worse or better than any airline. They all have these issues. I just wish AA had non-geriatric flight attendants. :D
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ethosunum said:
Usually this situation is referred to a 'Trip in Vain' . I've had this a few times for same day business trips, where the morning flight was either delayed enough or cancelled to make the trip usefull. I've never had a problem declaring it a trip in vain and getting a full refund as the CS agent could clearly see the return flight on the same ticket. In that case they can't book you past your return flight without re booking your return.

as for your particular case the AA CoC has this for involuntary refunds
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Exactly why I mentioned trip in vain. That said, if he didn't book directly with AA, he will most likely need to deal with the booking agent. Good luck with the online agents.
 
I just remember when we went to Australia last year- had Delta for our connecting flights from MSP to LAX and back the other way on the return trip.

While waiting at the gate I heard them make an announcement for not one or two but it seemed like every single Delta flight that they had overbooked and were looking for volunteers to give up their seats(with somewhat generous compensation to be fair). Then they'd announce they didn't have enough room for everyone's carry on baggage and would be checking some people's bags at the gate.

All I could think was that I'd scheduled and paid for a flight today- not tomorrow but today and scheduled it months in advance. I'd paid for a certain amount of checked baggage and so many carry-ons(and my carry-ons had stuff like my laptop for example not meant to be thrown around by the ground goons). Now, weather and mechanical failures are one thing and I get that but overbooking all your flights and bumping people? I don't care what your pages of legalese BS says, they have a responsibility to deliver the product they sold as they represented it at the time they represented it.

A refund is the bare minimum that should be accepted. Really they also ought to be liable for any financial losses I might incur(nonrefundable hotel/event tickets, lost money in a business deal, etc) but only holding them to the refund is kind of a freebie.
 
JimNtexas said:
This kind of thing is why I never book a flight or hotel through anything but the actual company's web site.

As soon as you book through any third party then the actual service providers just points at the broker and says "this is their problem, go away".
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Exactly.
 
cowman said:
I just remember when we went to Australia last year- had Delta for our connecting flights from MSP to LAX and back the other way on the return trip.

While waiting at the gate I heard them make an announcement for not one or two but it seemed like every single Delta flight that they had overbooked and were looking for volunteers to give up their seats(with somewhat generous compensation to be fair). Then they'd announce they didn't have enough room for everyone's carry on baggage and would be checking some people's bags at the gate.

All I could think was that I'd scheduled and paid for a flight today- not tomorrow but today and scheduled it months in advance. I'd paid for a certain amount of checked baggage and so many carry-ons(and my carry-ons had stuff like my laptop for example not meant to be thrown around by the ground goons). Now, weather and mechanical failures are one thing and I get that but overbooking all your flights and bumping people? I don't care what your pages of legalese BS says, they have a responsibility to deliver the product they sold as they represented it at the time they represented it.

A refund is the bare minimum that should be accepted. Really they also ought to be liable for any financial losses I might incur(nonrefundable hotel/event tickets, lost money in a business deal, etc) but only holding them to the refund is kind of a freebie.
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I concur. But I also know how the real world works and I'm trying to be a reasonable man.

AA never called me. The only thing I ever got from them was an email stating flight is canceled and that IF I had any questions that I could call the 800 number.

I did call the 800 number numerous times at the airport that night, the automated message system dropped my call and hanged up and disconnected on me each and every time.

That is why I had to stand in line for TWO hours at D24. Only to be shoved a piece of paper with another 800 number after the AA rep refused to help me and escalated to a "manager". The "manager" might as well have been the paperboy because all he did was shove me a piece of paper. And I'm thinking to myself, I waited in line two hours for this?

No one offered to rebook me. No one contacted me back. AA repeatedly refused any refunds. My calls to that 800 number didn't go through. I submitted a compliant online via the online form and have never heard back.


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Virgin or Alaska or just take a bus IMO.
 
James331 said:
Virgin or Alaska or just take a bus IMO.
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I know this forum is Pilots of America but lets be honest here, it is not scalable solution for everyone to learn to fly their own airplane. Even if it was, would you really want the average Joe to be flying his own plane? And what about international flights? Overseas travel?

At the same time, the argument that if you don't like airlines you should just fly your own airplane is a false argument. In reality it is not so black and white, the dichotomies of duality are not so starkly juxtaposed as to offer only a binary solution.

There are indeed economies of scale and benefits of specialization that larger structure entities like airlines can offer. After all that is what social contract is all about, and the reason we have industries and governments and society and civilization. No one here is building their own airplane from scratch right?

So I feel it is a false argument to say that I should either learn how to fly my own plane or else stop complaining about American Airlines. AA is by far the worst of the worst. Why can't they offer even the mere semblance of being reasonable?
 
cowman said:
I just remember when we went to Australia last year- had Delta for our connecting flights from MSP to LAX and back the other way on the return trip.

While waiting at the gate I heard them make an announcement for not one or two but it seemed like every single Delta flight that they had overbooked and were looking for volunteers to give up their seats(with somewhat generous compensation to be fair). Then they'd announce they didn't have enough room for everyone's carry on baggage and would be checking some people's bags at the gate.

All I could think was that I'd scheduled and paid for a flight today- not tomorrow but today and scheduled it months in advance. I'd paid for a certain amount of checked baggage and so many carry-ons(and my carry-ons had stuff like my laptop for example not meant to be thrown around by the ground goons). Now, weather and mechanical failures are one thing and I get that but overbooking all your flights and bumping people? I don't care what your pages of legalese BS says, they have a responsibility to deliver the product they sold as they represented it at the time they represented it.

A refund is the bare minimum that should be accepted. Really they also ought to be liable for any financial losses I might incur(nonrefundable hotel/event tickets, lost money in a business deal, etc) but only holding them to the refund is kind of a freebie.
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Some folks make out quite well getting vouchers for taking the bump. Some folks even go out of their way to book flights to increase the likelihood of earning a voucher.

I'm not one of them.

I do avoid at all costs checking bags - that's a recipe for trouble. And it gives you a lot of flexibility to change flights or routing.
 
EGPWS said:
I know this forum is Pilots of America but lets be honest here, it is not scalable solution for everyone to learn to fly their own airplane. Even if it was, would you really want the average Joe to be flying his own plane? And what about international flights? Overseas travel?

At the same time, the argument that if you don't like airlines you should just fly your own airplane is a false argument. In reality it is not so black and white, the dichotomies of duality are not so starkly juxtaposed as to offer only a binary solution.

There are indeed economies of scale and benefits of specialization that larger structure entities like airlines can offer. After all that is what social contract is all about, and the reason we have industries and governments and society and civilization. No one here is building their own airplane from scratch right?

So I feel it is a false argument to say that I should either learn how to fly my own plane or else stop complaining about American Airlines. AA is by far the worst of the worst. Why can't they offer even the mere semblance of being reasonable?
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Yes there are some people that do build and fly their own airplanes from scratch, especially here on a pilot's board. I take it you're not a pilot.. :confused:

I hope you get some resolve but it sounds like the damage is done. Learn from it and move on. We fly AA as often as the others and I can't say they are any more diabolical than their peers.

One thing we've learned is to start early and give yourself the whole day of flights to get there just within CONUS if it's 1000 miles plus and you're connecting up.



.
 
cowman said:
I just remember when we went to Australia last year- had Delta for our connecting flights from MSP to LAX and back the other way on the return trip.

While waiting at the gate I heard them make an announcement for not one or two but it seemed like every single Delta flight that they had overbooked and were looking for volunteers to give up their seats(with somewhat generous compensation to be fair). Then they'd announce they didn't have enough room for everyone's carry on baggage and would be checking some people's bags at the gate.

All I could think was that I'd scheduled and paid for a flight today- not tomorrow but today and scheduled it months in advance. I'd paid for a certain amount of checked baggage and so many carry-ons(and my carry-ons had stuff like my laptop for example not meant to be thrown around by the ground goons). Now, weather and mechanical failures are one thing and I get that but overbooking all your flights and bumping people? I don't care what your pages of legalese BS says, they have a responsibility to deliver the product they sold as they represented it at the time they represented it.

A refund is the bare minimum that should be accepted. Really they also ought to be liable for any financial losses I might incur(nonrefundable hotel/event tickets, lost money in a business deal, etc) but only holding them to the refund is kind of a freebie.
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I'm inclined to agree to an extent. I'm not a big fan of regulations, but I think bumping due to overbooking should require both a refund and a seat on the next available flight by any carrier, even if it requires an upgrade; or a double refund (plus a free return flight home, if applicable) in the event that a cancellation / delay / overbooking of any leg of an itinerary results in a trip in vain. It would be a bit like the pre-deregulation Rule 240, except even more slanted toward the consumer.

I'm not a big regulations kind of guy, but I think a "new Rule 240" has become necessary. Airlines are just overbooking too zealously these days. And why not? There really are no disincentives from doing so. The "generous compensation" they offer to bumped pax usually costs them nothing. They need a bit of pain to keep them honest.

Not even being an UM guarantees you a seat anymore, at least not from the origin airport. My neighbors' 10-year-old grandson got bumped from his return flight home after the spring break. They had to drive all the way back from ALB (almost a two-hour drive) and then back again the next day. He missed a day of school because of it, too (although I doubt he complained much).

Rich
 
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Regulation, or rather the way we regulate is probably the problem. The politicians work with the airlines(and their big campaign contributions + economic contributions). Neither one of them cares in the least about the common traveling citizen as long as those citizens don't make too much of a fuss. They give us just enough so we don't riot or stop flying and that's it.

In any other type of transaction between normal sized businesses and the public... or just two people where party a buys a service from party b and party b doesn't provide it, party b would be sued or in jail. For some reason when it's an airline they get a pass.
 
Im related to a couple of AA employees. They always brag about how theyre going to make their passenger's lives hell.








:rolleyes2:
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Im related to a couple of AA employees. They always brag about how theyre going to make their passenger's lives hell.








:rolleyes2:
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Update: I just heard back. I don't think full justice was done but I'll take what I can get. All this could have been resolved and it would have been a lot easier had they simply agreed to contact refunds on my behalf while at the gate counter.


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