A TOMATO FLAMES

So is there anything that must be recalled by memory and not a reference on a checkride? Am I required to know VFR wx mins for each airspace without a reference? What about emergency procedures in the POH?

Seems like in the military our checkrides more clear cut. You had to have certain things down cold while others were nice to know info. I think grading Oral Knowledge was always the hardest because it was soo subjective. There's no standard as to say someone misses more than 10 questions out of 20 on a ride fails. We're all at the mercy of the examiner.
 
John221us said:
OK.... how should I have responded to the DPE? It did happen and it was specifically about the minimum equipment list (my Cherokee does not have an MEL, so A TOMATO FLAMES applied).
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No. You're still stuck in the same place. Look at 91.213(d). That applies when the airplane does not have a MEL, and there is so much more than 91.205. (Another post that seems to prove my point about the problem - too many people thinks they stop there - with this acronym).

Your Cherokee may be old enough to not have a modern POH with the equipment list, but it was still certified under regulations that required certain equipment and still has a Type Certificate Data Sheet that might apply. 91.213(d)(2)(i).

Biggest problem is locating that certification data, but, going back to my earlier question, a table the FAA has to show how CAR 3 certification regs were moved into FAR Part 23 (http://goo.gl/C6NDQM) suggsests the stall warning device, not a 91.205 TF item, is indeed required equipment on your Cherokee.
 
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Velocity173 said:
So is there anything that must be recalled by memory and not a reference on a checkride? Am I required to know VFR wx mins for each airspace without a reference? What about emergency procedures in the POH?

Seems like in the military our checkrides more clear cut. You had to have certain things down cold while others were nice to know info. I think grading Oral Knowledge was always the hardest because it was soo subjective. There's no standard as to say someone misses more than 10 questions out of 20 on a ride fails. We're all at the mercy of the examiner.
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Sure there are. You have to know how to recover from a spin. If you try to look that up, you'll be dead before you get the POH opened. Similar deal with right of way rules (maybe not as severe, but the issue will be over before you can look it up).

The rule of thumb is that if you would routinely have the information available and can look it up at the necessary time, you're good. FARs usually don't apply in flight -- most of us don't carry the FAR/AIM around, and it isn't sensible to look much stuff up in flight anyway.

Note that if you're relying on Foreflight for chart reading, the legends may be problematic for you. Not so for paper.
 
Velocity173 said:
So is there anything that must be recalled by memory and not a reference on a checkride? Am I required to know VFR wx mins for each airspace without a reference? What about emergency procedures in the POH?
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It's sometime hard to tell. But the two loose guidelines I use are:

1. As MAKG said, do you reasonable have time to look it up? He gave the example of a spin but the "memory items" of any emergency procedure are good ones also. Less drastic, you are approaching another aircraft head on - which way are you supposed to turn away. Even if you do have a FAR on board...

2. Does your looking things up show wisdom or a problem? This is a very subjective one. If you have to look up everything and carry no basic knowledge in your head (I'm talking knowledge, not memorized today gone tomorrow), and Examiner would likely think there's a problem.

btw, I recall on one of my checkrides, the examiner asked me about light signals. I pulled out a kneeboard reference that includes that as well as VFR minimums and other valuable in-flight information and told him it's only on board with me. He was more than satisfied. That wouldn't necessarily be true of all. Some are into rote memorization/regurgitation; others are more interested in showing your ability to apply your knowledge and make good decisions.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sure there are. You have to know how to recover from a spin. If you try to look that up, you'll be dead before you get the POH opened.
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Hey! That reminds me of a scene in the Bowery Boys 1953 movie "Clipped Wings":
A terrified Sach consults his flight manual, but each chapter is titled "How to Face Death in the Air." [1]

(In the runaway plane, Slip reads the manual)
SLIP: "Chapter Nine: How to Face Death in the Air --- who wrote this book, an undertaker?"
(Slip throws the book out of the plane. An unseen stagehand obviously throws it back in. Sach catches it)
SACH: "Oh, oh, look at that, oh, I'll read the instructions, I got it, Chief. Chapter Ten: Now That You're Dead --- Ohp, oh, oh!!!" [2]
​
 
John221us said:
OK.... how should I have responded to the DPE? It did happen and it was specifically about the minimum equipment list (my Cherokee does not have an MEL, so A TOMATO FLAMES applied). Obviously it wasn't a complete deal breaker for the oral, but he would not let me look it up (I had been assured by my CFI and a couple others that I could, hence the attempt). I was a bit embarrassed for trying, at the time.
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I have to wonder if the DPE in your case may have been looking for at least some memorization of it to check for understanding. He may or may not have expected total memorization. I believe every pilot remembers at least a tidbit of it.

David
 
Just wanted to chime in regarding the acronym in the OP. I know every examiner is different, but on my oral I believe the questions regarding equipment were more practical. For example:
"You're doing your preflight and notice the fuel gauge isn't working, are you legal?" - No.
"How could you legally fly without a fuel gauge?", - get FSDO to issue ferry permit and placard accordingly
"What about the 2nd Nav/Comm?" - yes, but to be legal must be disabled and placarded inop.

He might have asked what I had to have to fly VFR day, but I don't remember it being asked in those words. Somewhere in there he told me to "think about it". That's what I did, I thought about all the things I reference/use when in VFR flight, and I passed. If you miss something it doesn't mean you fail, in this case the best thing to know is where to find the info if needed.
 
During my oral exam, my DPE asked a question along the lines of "if you pre-flight and notice your magnetic compass is broken, can you still fly?"

My response was "not legally, as this is required equipment per CFR 91.205"

After he stared at me for a few seconds with his jaw on the floor, he responded, "nobody ever knows the regulation number, and they usually take 10 minutes going through those stupid acronyms."

So, I guess it all depends on your examiner. Knowing where to find the information was key for him...
 
midlifeflyer said:
The answer is, "because the Examiner I use asks for the mnemonic."

True story: My student reviewed his checkride aircraft logs the morning of his checkride and found that the latest "annual" had not been signed by an IA. It had happened months ago and my student was the first to catch it.

After we changed airplanes (and re-checked), I told my student to make sure he told the examiner what happened. I stayed near enough to hear that he did.

After my student passed I called the examiner. He told me my student did great but, "He didn't know TOMATO FLAMES!" he said with shock.
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Oy. :sad:
 
Velocity173 said:
So is there anything that must be recalled by memory and not a reference on a checkride? Am I required to know VFR wx mins for each airspace without a reference? What about emergency procedures in the POH?
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If it's something you would need to know in flight without being able to look it up, like immediate action items of an emergency procedures checklist, or VFR cloud clearance (can't stop the plane while you look that up before getting closer), or minimum legal altitudes (91.119), you have to memorize it. If it's something you would have the time and place to look up without anything else happening (like dealing with inoperative instruments or equipment on the ground), all you need to know is where to find the information you need.
 
And, though you're not likely there yet, the example to think about for figuring out the difference is, what's the procedure for lowering the gear when it won't go on its own?

Can you look that one up or do you have to memorize it?
 
What about operating limitations? Should an examinee be required to know oil temperature limits? Max crosswind component? The whole chapter or just some things?
 
when i took my instrument checkride, the DPE told me he has no problems at all with me looking information up. obviously i coulndt look up every answer but i had to for a few questions but he was totally okay with that
 
ateamer said:
Why memorize them? It's not something that has to be known on a time-critical basis. Meaning, any time you will ever have to know it, you'll have time to check the POH's equipment list and the FARs if necessary.
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Exactly - I just did my checkride (well, the oral part anyway...) and when I was asked this question I rattled off a few of the obvious ones and simultaneously opened the FAR (post-it note bookmarked) to 91.2xx. My examiner was totally fine with that.
 
Velocity173 said:
What about operating limitations? Should an examinee be required to know oil temperature limits? Max crosswind component? The whole chapter or just some things?
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Oil temp limits are on the gauge, so I can't see memorizing them. If there is an actual crosswind limit (as opposed to the demonstrated maximum component, which is not a limitation), it will be on the placard in the cockpit with all those other limitations like chandelle entry speed, so again, you can check it in flight in an instant. That said, the DPE is probably going to be more interested in what you consider your personal crosswind limit, since most crosswind landing accidents seem to happen in much less than the airplane's max capability.

Get the idea?
 
Velocity173 said:
What about operating limitations? Should an examinee be required to know oil temperature limits? Max crosswind component? The whole chapter or just some things?
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Good question. Most of the important ones are required to be placarded. But its good to know which ones aren't. There's a v-speed that is very important but not required to be noted on the ASI. What is it?
 
Sam D said:
Good question. Most of the important ones are required to be placarded. But its good to know which ones aren't. There's a v-speed that is very important but not required to be noted on the ASI. What is it?
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There are a whole bunch of V-speeds that aren't on the ASI. Vx, Vy, Vr, V1, Vfe, Vle, best glide speed, and so on. All of those are important for one reason or another.

The one you're referring to should be placarded elsewhere.
 
Ron Levy said:
Oil temp limits are on the gauge, so I can't see memorizing them. If there is an actual crosswind limit (as opposed to the demonstrated maximum component, which is not a limitation), it will be on the placard in the cockpit with all those other limitations like chandelle entry speed, so again, you can check it in flight in an instant. That said, the DPE is probably going to be more interested in what you consider your personal crosswind limit, since most crosswind landing accidents seem to happen in much less than the airplane's max capability.

Get the idea?
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Yeah makes sense. I suppose a lot depends on type operation as well. The only three limits my company requires us to memorize are TRQ, MGT and NG. All of those limits are indicated on the gauges as well. In the military we were required to have the entire limits chapter memorized. Different standards, different operations.

Of course on checkride they ask stuff that's not required to know so you got to be prepared for anything I guess.
 
Sam D said:
Good question. Most of the important ones are required to be placarded. But its good to know which ones aren't. There's a v-speed that is very important but not required to be noted on the ASI. What is it?
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Ah, is it Vp? :dunno:
 
asechrest said:
Hello all.

I'm running through the PTS another time before my checkride. And I really hate this mnemonic. It's totally ridiculous, and is actually I think an impediment to remembering the required instruments. I think it would be much better to divide the required instruments into intuitive groups. So far I've got day VFR into four groups. I'll list them below. Anyone have a better way of studying this, or more intuitive groupings, or better name groups, or a way to incorporate the night VFR instruments?

These four main groups are easy to remember. Each one has three instruments, except for the safety group (think "extra" safety!).

Engine
Tachometer
Manifold pressure (each engine)
Temperature (liquid cooled engines)

Fluids
Oil temperature
Oil pressure
Fuel level

Orientation
Altimeter
Airspeed
Mag. heading

Safety
Seat belts
ELT
Anti-collision lights (after 1996)
Landing gear position indicator
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Good luck on your check ride!
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah makes sense. I suppose a lot depends on type operation as well. The only three limits my company requires us to memorize are TRQ, MGT and NG. All of those limits are indicated on the gauges as well. In the military we were required to have the entire limits chapter memorized. Different standards, different operations.
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That was also my military experience. And I thought it was pointless then, too, to memorize things which were depicted on the instruments in the airplane, but that didn't matter to USAF Stan/Eval.

Of course on checkride they ask stuff that's not required to know
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They're not supposed to do that. They should not be asking rote memorization of anything you don't really need to have memorized.
 
Ron Levy said:
That was also my military experience. And I thought it was pointless then, too, to memorize things which were depicted on the instruments in the airplane, but that didn't matter to USAF Stan/Eval.

They're not supposed to do that. They should not be asking rote memorization of anything you don't really need to have memorized.
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Well on our 135 rides they ask everything. I don't think they put much weight on limits that aren't required to be memorized by policy though. Unfortunately the only question I missed was an EP. Said land as soon as possible for Low Eng Oil Press instead of practical...stupid. Not sure why I missed that one but still, he didn't seem to mind.
 
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