A question for the controllers

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PPC1052

Final Approach
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When I fly the LOC 21 into KEYE as a practice approach VFR flight following, at the FAF, they will clear me for the approach (if the haven't done so sooner), and tell me, "frequency change approved, squawk VFR." At that point, obviously, I descend. But depending on the height they bring me in, there is a chance I won't get down before I hit the Class Charlie airspace. Assuming I am making a decent effort to get down and thereby not to clip the airspace, how much do the controllers really care?

https://www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1602/05733L21.PDF
 
Are you in contact with the Class C APP/DEP controller or Center during the beginning of the approach? If it's Indy approach then its not an issue. You already have two way radio contact with the controlling agency. He already knows your there and going to KEYE since your talking to him.

There is a local airport that I shoot approaches at that is also under Class C shelf. When ever the Charlie controller clears me/drops me it is assumed I'm cleared into the airspace.
 
I think that's going to depend on traffic, who is in the room at the time, and their mood. Similarly going into my home drome (also VFR) I will get cut loose and get the RSTFCASVFR call before I am out of the class C. In fact I got it once while I was still over the primary airport.
 
Technically, you are still operating VFR and not in radio contact with the controller. I would expect you to remain clear of the Charlie.
 
ARFlyer said:
Are you in contact with the Class C APP/DEP controller.
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Yep.

ARFlyer said:
If it's Indy approach then its not an issue. You already have two way radio contact with the controlling agency. He already knows your there and going to KEYE since your talking to him.
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Well, I was. But then he told me I could change frequencies. At that point, he has no further expectation I will be talking to him. When I am on the VOR-A, its even more likely I'm in the Charlie when he cuts me loose.

https://www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1602/05733VA.PDF
 
MarkZ said:
Technically, you are still operating VFR and not in radio contact with the controller. I would expect you to remain clear of the Charlie.
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I would think that, too. But, for example, on the VOR A, I have been dropped from FF while still in the Charlie. Another time, I was on FF coming up from the south passing right over KIND, and was then dropped north of KIND and south of KEYE still in the Charlie when I was given the "frequency change approved" instruction.
 
PPC1052 said:
I would think that, too. But, for example, on the VOR A, I have been dropped from FF while still in the Charlie. Another time, I was on FF coming up from the south passing right over KIND, and was then dropped north of KIND and south of KEYE still in the Charlie when I was given the "frequency change approved" instruction.
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Frequency change approved doesn't mean squawk VFR. I'll get that on approaches to uncontrolled or class C fields. Are you sure they are telling you to squawk VFR and not maintain VFR? I guess the point is if you are talking to the controlling agency for that airspace and they know where you are and where you're going it's probably not that big of a deal.

If you're not on FF, and have a VFR 1200 code I would also be remaining clear of any airspace though...
 
Caramon13 said:
Frequency change approved doesn't mean squawk VFR. I'll get that on approaches to uncontrolled or class C fields. Are you sure they are telling you to squawk VFR and not maintain VFR? I guess the point is if you are talking to the controlling agency for that airspace and they know where you are and where you're going it's probably not that big of a deal.

If you're not on FF, and have a VFR 1200 code I would also be remaining clear of any airspace though...
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I have definitely been told to squawk VFR. Sometimes I just leave the number on the assigned code though until I land so they know its still me.
 
Yeah, that's odd then, but I guess if they don't have a lot of traffic or if they know who you are probably isn't a HUGE deal. Obviously you're following instructions, but if it was me I might play the "stupid" card and ask them "Still in Charlie, should I maintain the code you gave me or go 1200 while I'm here?".

I ask questions like that all the time...
 
They likely don;t care. But taking care of the technicality is pretty simple. Just one idea:

"Frequency change approved" does not mean you have to change frequencies at that moment. "We'll stay with you until we're clear of the Charlie" is an appropriate response.
 
You can stay with them, but it seems to me when they clear you for the approach it's implied that you're cleared for all the airspace involved in that approach. The FAF is at 2500 and the floor of the C is at 2100, they know both of these things and also know where you are. If they clear you, and tell you you can switch frequencies they aren't gonna bust you for flying the procedure they just cleared you to fly. Remember, the only ones who are gonna give you an airspace bust are the people working that sector, and they are the ones that just cleared you for the approach. ATC is not trying to trick you into busting airspace so that they can do a bunch of extra paperwork.
 
This is really case by case. If it isn't clear, ask. In Sacramento approach will have me squawk vfr and swap to advisory into McClellan airport when I still have 1000 to go to get out of class c. They probably do that to give me a headstart in trying to figure out the very busy uncontrolled traffic positions.


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If it's the Class Charlie approach controller that cleared me, I am good to go. This is where its nice to have two radios. Stay with the Controller that cleared you on one and talk/listen on the Unicom on the other.

So far as I, as a pilot, am concerned. If Im talking to ATC and they tell me I can do something, I am cleared into whatever airspace I need. If there is a glitch, its on ATC. That is, if I do what the controller tells me to do. Now there is the Class B cleared thing. I have to have that too. The problem is, there are really four levels of flying rules, IFR, VFR, flight following VFR and "practice approaches VFR". Try using the words "will you coordinate" or "am I good into Class Charlie if needed". If you are on an IFR flight plan, there is no question about it. You are good to go. The others, sometimes have to be worked out. If in doubt ASK.
 
PPC1052 said:
... Assuming I am making a decent effort to get down and thereby not to clip the airspace, how much do the controllers really care?
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Call the TRACON and ask them. If it's during the business day just ask for the supervisor or the QC guy. Other time the duty supervisor will probably be answering the phone. I make that kind of call once or twice a year and 100% of the time I get someone who is helpful and can provide or get the information I need.
 
PPC1052 said:
When I fly the LOC 21 into KEYE as a practice approach VFR flight following, at the FAF, they will clear me for the approach (if the haven't done so sooner), and tell me, "frequency change approved, squawk VFR." At that point, obviously, I descend. But depending on the height they bring me in, there is a chance I won't get down before I hit the Class Charlie airspace. Assuming I am making a decent effort to get down and thereby not to clip the airspace, how much do the controllers really care?

https://www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1602/05733L21.PDF
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Are they clearing you for the approach or are they saying practice approach approved?
 
luvflyin said:
Are they clearing you for the approach or are they saying practice approach approved?
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When on VFR flight following, they simply say, cleared for the ____ approach. They never use the word "practice."
 
PPC1052 said:
When on VFR flight following, they simply say, cleared for the ____ approach. They never use the word "practice."
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That varies depending on the location and facility. Flying the ILS 4 into KPHN and talking to Selfridge, one normally hears "practice approach approved, no separation services provided". At locations where the TRACON provides separation services to VFR aircraft flying practice approaches, you will be "cleared".

Disclaimer: I am not a controller; hopefully the controllers here will expand on this or correct any errors I made.
 
When we fly practice approaches (and notify the controllers appropriately), we normally get "cleared for the approach, maintain VFR at all times" which implies separation as well.
In the immortal words of Spock: "it is only logical". :)
 
azure said:
That varies depending on the location and facility. Flying the ILS 4 into KPHN and talking to Selfridge, one normally hears "practice approach approved, no separation services provided". At locations where the TRACON provides separation services to VFR aircraft flying practice approaches, you will be "cleared".
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To your point, I am only talking about what I hear from Indy Approach.
 
azure said:
That varies depending on the location and facility. Flying the ILS 4 into KPHN and talking to Selfridge, one normally hears "practice approach approved, no separation services provided". At locations where the TRACON provides separation services to VFR aircraft flying practice approaches, you will be "cleared".

Disclaimer: I am not a controller; hopefully the controllers here will expand on this or correct any errors I made.
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Correct. If it's the primary airport where approach is located, then they'll provide IFR separation to VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches. Even though you'll receive "cleared," it's still incumbent on the pilot to remain VMC.

If it's a secondary airport where no separation is provided, you'll still get vectors and altitude assignment (if necessary) but they'll say "(ID) maintain VFR, practice approaches approved, no separation services provided."
 
Velocity173 said:
Correct. If it's the primary airport where approach is located, then they'll provide IFR separation to VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches. Even though you'll receive "cleared," it's still incumbent on the pilot to remain VMC.

If it's a secondary airport where no separation is provided, you'll still get vectors and altitude assignment (if necessary) but they'll say "(ID) maintain VFR, practice approaches approved, no separation services provided."
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Thanks. Though in some cases, separation services are apparently provided even going into secondary airports. Case in point: KVLL (Troy, MI) where I was "cleared RNAV 9 approach" by Detroit Approach (primary is DTW) many times VFR.
 
azure said:
That varies depending on the location and facility. Flying the ILS 4 into KPHN and talking to Selfridge, one normally hears "practice approach approved, no separation services provided". At locations where the TRACON provides separation services to VFR aircraft flying practice approaches, you will be "cleared".

Disclaimer: I am not a controller; hopefully the controllers here will expand on this or correct any errors I made.
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You've pretty much got it right. There are 3 types of practice approaches. First is an IFR aircraft making them. No different from any IFR aircraft making an approach except that they are not to disrupt the flow of other traffic.

Next is where procedures have been established to apply IFR separation to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches. Standard IFR separation is used except that 500 feet vertical is ok instead of 1000, except under super or heavy aircraft. Pilots must be told to maintain VFR at all times and you must. Not just clear of clouds, VFR. You may not fly the "missed approach" unless specifically authorized. Yes you can abandon the approach, do a low approach or touch and go to go back and do another. A Letter to Airmen must be published to use this procedure.

The third is where no formal program has been established. This is when you hear Practice Approach Approved, no separation services provided.

Practice approaches are probably the most misunderstood, misinterpreted, misused and abused procedures in ATC although it does seem a lot better than many years ago. I don't know what procedures are in effect at Indy, but if they "cleared" him for the Approach, there is no Class C violation in PPC1052's scenario.
 
azure said:
Thanks. Though in some cases, separation services are apparently provided even going into secondary airports. Case in point: KVLL (Troy, MI) where I was "cleared RNAV 9 approach" by Detroit Approach (primary is DTW) many times VFR.
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Yep, just depends what's in their LTA with surrounding airports. They must provide separation to the primary though. Where I worked, we never provided separation to any outlying airports.
 
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faa.gov
Regulations & Policies drop down menu
Notices to Airmen (NOTAMS)
Federal NOTAM System (FNS)
>Letters to Airmen

Scroll down looking for your location in the Condition column to find the Letters to Airmen concerning Practice Instrument Approaches
 
This answer is very simple: You have established two-way communication with Indianapolis Approach. You have not been instructed to remain outside Charlie airspace. You may therefore enter Charlie airspace. End of story.

This has nothing to do with LTAs, approach clearance phraseology, or separation services. This is cut-and-dry 14 CFR §91.130, where "Unless otherwise authorized by ATC," there is a two-way radio communication requirement. The frequency change approval is an authorization by ATC to disregard the requirement §91.130(c)(1) to maintain communication while within the Charlie airspace.

I completed an IFR rating for an aircraft owner based in Indianapolis last summer, and I can guarantee this is the same answer you'll receive from Indianapolis ATCT/TRACON if you call and ask them the same question. (317) 227-5780
 
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