A question for the CFIa amoung us

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
What guidance are you given on the required sign offs in the maintenance records?

Before you send a student to the DPE for a check ride, what sign offs are required to be there for them to take the ride.
 
I'm not sure what the question is?

Are you asking what the FAA requirements are? Or what I do?

I can offer this minor comment: As an owner who has participated in annuals I actually know what needs to be where and how it should be logged. I didn't know that as a renter.
 
In the maintenance logs? From my experience on my CFI ride, just proof of all the inspections and compliance with ADs.

What's the context of your question?
 
I'm asking what guidance you get from your FSDO on what log entries are required.

I'd call FSDO if it were Monday, but ..........
 
TMetzinger said:
In the maintenance logs? From my experience on my CFI ride, just proof of all the inspections and compliance with ADs.

What's the context of your question?
Click to expand...

Where are they required to be?

Annual inspections ..... are placed where?

Read 91.405, there will be more questions
 
Tom-D said:
Where are they required to be?

Annual inspections ..... are placed where?

Read 91.405, there will be more questions
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Well, there was one in the airframe log and one in the engine log, and one in the propeller log on my airplane.

But I've seen airplanes with only one binder for everything, but the annual inspection still covered airframe, engine, and propeller, and called out all three.

I guess what I am asking is what has a DPE or inspector told YOU is required?
 
Let us assume this is an old 172D that was annualled last December.

and the annual sign off is in the airframe log, and all maintenance was recorded in the proper log for the engine and prop.

all ADs are up to date at that time and there are no others due.

Is this legal to take the test ?

Read FAR 43-D and see if the annual can be completed without all the systems in place and operating properly.?
 
TMetzinger said:
Well, there was one in the airframe log and one in the engine log, and one in the propeller log on my airplane.

But I've seen airplanes with only one binder for everything, but the annual inspection still covered airframe, engine, and propeller, and called out all three.

I guess what I am asking is what has a DPE or inspector told YOU is required?
Click to expand...

I'm asking you what is your guidance on the subject?

all three logs require a annual sign off or not ?
 
Annual, 100hr if required, airframe, engine and prop. Annual should annotate all AD compliance, any AD require more periodic inspections should be current. ELT, battery?
transponder checks. W&B data current?

I know there is more.
 
FAR 91.409 states:
91.409 Inspections.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—

(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter; or

(2) An inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

No inspection performed under paragraph (b) of this section may be substituted for any inspection required by this paragraph unless it is performed by a person authorized to perform annual inspections and is entered as an “annual” inspection in the required maintenance records.
 
FAR 43 appendix D states

(7) All systems—for improper installation, poor general condition, apparent and obvious defects, and insecurity of attachment.

(d) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) components of the engine and nacelle group as follows:

(1) Engine section—for visual evidence of excessive oil, fuel, or hydraulic leaks, and sources of such leaks.

with this in mind how can an annual be completed with out the engine being included?
 
Tom-D said:
I'm asking what guidance you get from your FSDO on what log entries are required.
Click to expand...
We don't get this guidance from the FSDO's, we get it from Parts 43 and 91 of the FAR's and from the PTS.

So what's your question, really?
 
Well, Tom, all I can tell you is that every airplane I've ever reviewed the logs on (all rentals except for one I was a part owner in)... either had three separate entries for airframe, engine, and prop, or had a single entry that used all three words (airframe, engine, prop). And I've never had an issue. But I've never asked the FSDO for formal guidance either.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm asking you what is your guidance on the subject?

all three logs require a annual sign off or not ?
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If you're asking whether there must be an annual inspection endorsement in each of the three logs, I know the answer is no -- just in the airframe log. References are 91.409(a) and 43.11(a). The annual is performed on the "aircraft," not the individual accessories, so it goes in the "aircraft" record, which is the airframe log. And if I needed to confirm that, I'd ask my FSDO Airworthiness folks, but I've already asked that question before and had it answered.

Now, whether this is properly taught to every CFI in the US...:dunno:
 
The BDL FSDO asked that I fill this form out (attached) before I took my CFI checkride to ensure all inspections were complete and the aircraft was in an airworthy condition. That's the most I have ever received in terms of "FSDO guidance" on the matter.
 

Attachments

  • airworthiness.pdf
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Ron Levy said:
We don't get this guidance from the FSDO's, we get it from Parts 43 and 91 of the FAR's and from the PTS.

So what's your question, really?
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That's the best answer I've had.. You don't get guidance .

I have 2 CFIs that will not send their students for the PPL check ride with out annual sign offs in all 3 log books.

We A&P-IAs are given the guidance where we place the annual sign off at each annual refresher training for renewal of the IA, and that is in the aircraft records not the prop or the engine.

We go to FSDO on Monday to get them some guidance too.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're asking whether there must be an annual inspection endorsement in each of the three logs, I know the answer is no -

Thank you very much we agree!

- just in the airframe log. References are 91.409(a) and 43.11(a). The annual is performed on the "aircraft," not the individual accessories, so it goes in the "aircraft" record, which is the airframe log. And if I needed to confirm that, I'd ask my FSDO Airworthiness folks, but I've already asked that question before and had it answered.

Now, whether this is properly taught to every CFI in the US...:dunno:
Click to expand...

Yep we have a few CFIs that are not well informed. (2 at least)

Thanks for reaffirming what I believed to be correct..
 
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Tom-D said:
FAR 43 appendix D states

(7) All systems—for improper installation, poor general condition, apparent and obvious defects, and insecurity of attachment.

(d) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) components of the engine and nacelle group as follows:

(1) Engine section—for visual evidence of excessive oil, fuel, or hydraulic leaks, and sources of such leaks.

with this in mind how can an annual be completed with out the engine being included?
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Since the aircraft isn't airworthy without the engine installed, there's no way to complete the annual without it being there, and that means the engine installed at the time of inspection must be inspected as part of that inspection, and the signing of the annual in the airframe log documents that. I just don't see a signed annual inspection with a discrepancy list that says "engine missing" and having an A&P later install the engine and sign off that installation being acceptable to the FAA.

Also, if the engine is swapped out later, there is no requirement to sign an annual inspection in the new engine's log, nor to sign a new annual in the aircraft's airframe log.
 
I don't disagree with Ron. I do wonder why I've always seen the entries the way I've described, though. Perhaps it's just a way of ensuring that one's butt is fully covered, or just the way the couple of shops I've seen do it. THe number of logs I've looked at aren't statistically significant. I'd be interested in hearing if others have gotten FSDO guidance and how it varies.
 
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The guidance is the FARs and there is nothing in the FARs saying it must be in all three logbooks. I've never heard of it being that way and I most certainly don't require it that way to do checkrides. Nor did the FAA airworthiness inspector have a problem with it being in 1 logbook during my CFI initial ride.
 
BTW, if anyone thinks there must be an annual inspection in all three logs, ask them whether they've ever seen a new annual inspection entry in the engine or prop log every time an engine or prop is swapped out. Reductio ad absurdum.
 
Ron Levy said:
Since the aircraft isn't airworthy without the engine installed, there's no way to complete the annual without it being there, and that means the engine installed at the time of inspection must be inspected as part of that inspection, and the signing of the annual in the airframe log documents that. I just don't see a signed annual inspection with a discrepancy list that says "engine missing" and having an A&P later install the engine and sign off that installation being acceptable to the FAA.

We are not supposed to do it that way, If we can't complete the annual we are to make an entry stating what portion was done, and why the inspection was stopped.

Also, if the engine is swapped out later, there is no requirement to sign an annual inspection in the new engine's log, nor to sign a new annual in the aircraft's airframe log.
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If we were to sign the aircraft off as UNairworthy due to engine missing, the IA would be required to do the annual portion of the inspection on the engine before the inspection would be complete.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
The BDL FSDO asked that I fill this form out (attached) before I took my CFI checkride to ensure all inspections were complete and the aircraft was in an airworthy condition. That's the most I have ever received in terms of "FSDO guidance" on the matter.
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Thank you Jason webe, copping that and giving it to the 2 CFIs we are having trouble with.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, if anyone thinks there must be an annual inspection in all three logs, ask them whether they've ever seen a new annual inspection entry in the engine or prop log every time an engine or prop is swapped out. Reductio ad absurdum.
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actually all the removal and replacement of any component is merely a discrepancy sign off. (engine included)
 
TMetzinger said:
I don't disagree with Ron. I do wonder why I've always seen the entries the way I've described, though. Perhaps it's just a way of ensuring that one's butt is fully covered, or just the way the couple of shops I've seen do it. THe number of logs I've looked at aren't statistically significant. I'd be interested in hearing if others have gotten FSDO guidance and how it varies.
Click to expand...

That is where I was at the start of this thread, But now I see the CFIs probably don't get any guidance, they are probably ( I'm guessing) are trying to appease their DPEs

And we will get the FSDO on this Monday..
 
Tom-D said:
That is where I was at the start of this thread, But now I see the CFIs probably don't get any guidance, they are probably ( I'm guessing) are trying to appease their DPEs

And we will get the FSDO on this Monday..
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There is no significant maintenance training in any CFI-prep syllabus.

As I mentioned in my first post, I learned 40% just hanging around the airport and helping owners, and the other 60% as an owner.
 
An annual inspection is on the AIRCRAFT (as a whole), therefore the return to service entry from an annual inspection is logically added to the Aircraft/Airframe Logbook.

If you want to provide your CFI's with guidance on this that comes from the FAA site and is directed to PILOTS to help them understand, have them look up the Plane Sense book (FAA-H-8083-19A) and read chapter 8, Aircraft Maintenance Records. Page 75 of the PDF linked above says this, and I emphasize:

14 CFR Part 43, Section 43.11, Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and 135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter


When a mechanic approves or disapproves an aircraft for return to service after an annual, 100-hour, or progressive inspection, an entry shall be made including:

  • Aircraft time in service,
  • The type of inspection,
  • The date of inspection,
  • The signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving the aircraft for return to service, and
  • A signed and dated listing of discrepancies and unairworthy items.
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Notice that "an entry" is singular.
 
ALSO... the guidance for applying for a Ferry Permit (which as you know is required if the aircraft is out of annual) says to fax the following along with Form 8130-6:

  1. A current copy of the aircraft Airworthiness Certificate.
  2. A copy of the aircraft Registration.
  3. Date of the last annual inspection (copy of that log book page)
  4. A copy of the last Aircraft Log Book Entry, stating that this aircraft has been inspected and is in a safe condition to fly/ferry and that all applicable AD's have been complied with and or a listing of the AD's that have not been complied with, signed by an FAA certificated, A&P Mechanic or Part 145 Repair Station.

FAA Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...VFi-taz5n-gUWXZnQ&sig2=863qieIMB-FTm5PFr2VXQQ
 
You should convert 'em over to computer logs Tom, and tell 'em to print whatever piles of bureaucratic paper for whichever "logbook" they like. ;)
 
Tom-D said:
FAR 43 appendix D states

(7) All systems—for improper installation, poor general condition, apparent and obvious defects, and insecurity of attachment.

(d) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) components of the engine and nacelle group as follows:

(1) Engine section—for visual evidence of excessive oil, fuel, or hydraulic leaks, and sources of such leaks.

with this in mind how can an annual be completed with out the engine being included?
Click to expand...

Ok, as I'm getting your point, you're saying that the "Annual Inspection" only needs to be logged and signed off in "Aircraft Log" since the engine is part of the aircraft. You log the procedures and services in the respective books. I can see your logic. How well it works in practice with DEs and FSDO ramp checks, I have absolutely no clue. I'm trying to remember our stamps and I thought the "Annual" stamp had an option for "engine" and "airframe". If that recollection is correct, then at least convention points to it being signed "annual" in each book. Best I can recollect all my engine logs have had "Annual" sign offs in them.
 
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If one is looking for information on FAA guidance on a particular subject, the FAA website has a TON of information on it. Most of the info is in the form of AC's (Advisory Circulars). In the case of maintenance entries, the AC is AC 43-9C. Found here:

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22587

AC's are considered acceptable practice or methods, not approved except in certain situations. Basically, an AC gives you general guidance on how to do something. Kind of like the AIM, but not exactly. It's more of a further explanation of the regulations.

If you go to the FAA website, under the Regulations and Policies tab, there's the AC section. There is all sorts of information there. From known ice info to information about sunglasses to EFB general info to MEL's and MMEL's..... If you have a question about the FAA interpretation of something, chances are there's an AC on it. Usually the AC number correlates to the regulation. The classic example is AC43-13.
 
I have seen DPEs make up phony requirements to refuse a checkride when a student brought in some broken-ass antique airplane that they managed to get use of for $5/hr and the DPE didn't feel comfortable flying it. Have your objectors seen the subject plane you're talking about?
 
bgdriveway said:
If one is looking for information on FAA guidance on a particular subject, the FAA website has a TON of information on it. Most of the info is in the form of AC's (Advisory Circulars). In the case of maintenance entries, the AC is AC 43-9C. Found here:

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli....cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22587

AC's are considered acceptable practice or methods, not approved except in certain situations. Basically, an AC gives you general guidance on how to do something. Kind of like the AIM, but not exactly. It's more of a further explanation of the regulations.

If you go to the FAA website, under the Regulations and Policies tab, there's the AC section. There is all sorts of information there. From known ice info to information about sunglasses to EFB general info to MEL's and MMEL's..... If you have a question about the FAA interpretation of something, chances are there's an AC on it. Usually the AC number correlates to the regulation. The classic example is AC43-13.
Click to expand...

Interesting to note paragraph 10, item (d) states and I quote

d.; Questions continue regarding multiple entries for lOO-hour/annual inspections. As
discussed in paragraph 5c, neither part 43 nor part 91 requires separate records to be kept.
Section 43.11, however, requires persons approving or disapproving equipment for return to
service, after any required inspection, to make an entry in the record of that equipment.
Therefore. when an owner maintains a single record, the entry of the 100-hour or annual
inspection is made in that record. If the owner maintains separate records for the airframe,
pow&plants, and propellers, the entry for the loo-hour inspection is entered in each, while the
annual inspection is only required to be entered into the airframe record.
 
Henning said:
Ok, as I'm getting your point, you're saying that the "Annual Inspection" only needs to be logged and signed off in "Aircraft Log" since the engine is part of the aircraft. You log the procedures and services in the respective books. I can see your logic. How well it works in practice with DEs and FSDO ramp checks, I have absolutely no clue. I'm trying to remember our stamps and I thought the "Annual" stamp had an option for "engine" and "airframe". If that recollection is correct, then at least convention points to it being signed "annual" in each book. Best I can recollect all my engine logs have had "Annual" sign offs in them.
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Were you operating within part 91 or ?
 
schmookeeg said:
I have seen DPEs make up phony requirements to refuse a checkride when a student brought in some broken-ass antique airplane that they managed to get use of for $5/hr and the DPE didn't feel comfortable flying it. Have your objectors seen the subject plane you're talking about?
Click to expand...

None of my customers fly junk...
 
Tom-D said:
Interesting to note paragraph 10, item (d) states and I quote

d.; Questions continue regarding multiple entries for lOO-hour/annual inspections. As
discussed in paragraph 5c, neither part 43 nor part 91 requires separate records to be kept.
Section 43.11, however, requires persons approving or disapproving equipment for return to
service, after any required inspection, to make an entry in the record of that equipment.
Therefore. when an owner maintains a single record, the entry of the 100-hour or annual
inspection is made in that record. If the owner maintains separate records for the airframe,
pow&plants, and propellers, the entry for the loo-hour inspection is entered in each, while the
annual inspection is only required to be entered into the airframe record.
Click to expand...

And I bet that's why I see them in all three - because our shops have the stamp that says 100HR/ANNUAL and the Engine/Airfame/Prop Check boxes, and they're probably in the habit of marking them on all three everytime they do the inspections at all.
 
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