A question for gun and business owners

[Jay Honeck]

I know from previous threads that there are a LOT of gun owners on P of A, so here's a scenario/question for y'all:

My wife and I are gun enthusiasts, and regularly shoot at the range, both pistol and rifle. We do not hunt, not because we're opposed to hunting, but because we simply don't have the time.

We have purchased a new business on an island off the Texas gulf coast -- a motel with an owner's living quarters attached. This is our fourth business, and we are now living at/inside this one -- something we've never done before. There are many advantages to this arrangement, but it brings up the question: "What to do with our weapons?"

When we lived in Iowa, and ran our motel there, we did not live on-site, so this issue never came up -- although I did briefly consider keeping a pistol behind the desk. In the end the hassle factor of getting a permit to carry in Iowa made that a moot point, as it was illegal for us to keep one of our pistols on-site without that permit.

Now, however, our business IS our home, so keeping the guns on-site is the natural state of affairs. Our weapons are nearby, which is a comforting thought, since -- although we rarely handle cash (almost all motel stays are paid by credit card) -- motels are still routinely robbed by stupid people who apparently don't know that there's no money here.

Since our office is directly attached to our living quarters, I've opted to keep my 9 mm pistol in a drawer directly beneath the cash register. I am keeping the 9mm's 15-round clip half in the grip (but not engaged), with no round in the chamber but easily deployable with one smooth motion, while Mary is keeping her Walther P22 and two clips in her nightstand, two rooms away.

So, fellow business/gun owners -- where do you keep your guns? Have you opted for a self defense stance, or are you uncomfortable with keeping a weapon at your business?

 

[jesse]

Since our office is directly attached to our living quarters, I've opted to keep my 9 mm pistol in a drawer directly beneath the cash register. I am keeping the 9mm's 15-round clip half in the grip (but not engaged), with no round in the chamber but easily deployable with one smooth motion, while Mary is keeping her Walther P22 and two clips in her nightstand, two rooms away.

So, fellow business/gun owners -- where do you keep your guns? Have you opted for a self defense stance, or are you uncomfortable with keeping a weapon at your business?

My two cents...

Since our office is directly attached to our living quarters, I've opted to keep my 9 mm pistol in a drawer directly beneath the cash register. I am keeping the 9mm's 15-round clip half in the grip (but not engaged), with no round in the chamber but easily deployable with one smooth motion, while Mary is keeping her Walther P22 and two clips in her nightstand, two rooms away.

I wouldn't have the gun somewhere you aren't. The last thing you want is a bad guy to jump the counter, find your gun and your cash. Now he shoots you with your gun. In my house my loaded guns are either with me or in a state where they can't be fired without a lot of effort.

Think of it this way - someone breaks into the register in the middle of the night. They find your gun. You wake up. Now you have to battle the attacker that is armed with your 9mm using your wife's .22 handgun. Not good. Now if you had a 12 gauge in your sleeping quarters things would be a bit better.

There isn't much point in keeping the gun in the state you describe either. Modern guns are designed to be left chambered. There was a case where a business owner was attacked in his office and his arm or hand or something was broken by the attacker. He made it to his gun to discover he wasn't capable of chambering the round with a broken arm. Little good it did him.

This all comes down to Texas law. I'd do some research and make sure you fully understand it. I really don't imagine it's that difficult to get a conceal and carry permit in Texas? You'd be WAY better off with the weapon on you versus off you.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I wouldn't have the gun somewhere you aren't. The last thing you want is a bad guy to jump the counter, find your gun and your cash. Now he shoots you with your gun. In my house my loaded guns are either with me or in a state where they can't be fired without a lot of effort.

Think of it this way - someone breaks into the register in the middle of the night. They find your gun. You wake up. Now you have to battle the attacker that is armed with your 9mm using your wife's .22 handgun. Not good.

That's a scenario I had frankly not considered. It would be extremely difficult for someone to break into the office after hours (the door is extremely stout), but I suppose it's possible.

Right now, we are in the start-up phase of this business and therefore are never leaving the premises altogether, so it's not an issue -- but that situation will change once we hire staff. At that point, we'll have to take the gun out of the office, back into our living quarters, since I doubt any staff members will be trained in the use of firearms.

There isn't much point in keeping the gun in the state you describe either. Modern guns are designed to be left chambered. There was a case where a business owner was attacked in his office and his arm or hand or something was broken by the attacker. He made it to his gun to discover he wasn't capable of chambering the round with a broken arm. Little good it did him.

Yeah, that's the weakest link in my self defense plan, no doubt. It's a compromise position, since Mary voiced objections to keeping a fully-loaded, ready-to-fire gun in the office -- but what you say makes sense.

This all comes down to Texas law. I'd do some research and make sure you fully understand it. I really don't imagine it's that difficult to get a conceal and carry permit in Texas? You'd be WAY better off with the weapon on you versus off you.

I thought of that, too, but there's one HUGE problem -- we're on a semi-tropical island. The "uniform" here consists of an airplane-themed Hawaiian shirt, shorts, and sandals. Ain't no "concealing" a gun on this island, mon!

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

My two cents...

I wouldn't have the gun somewhere you aren't. The last thing you want is a bad guy to jump the counter, find your gun and your cash. Now he shoots you with your gun. In my house my loaded guns are either with me or in a state where they can't be fired without a lot of effort.

On top of that - do you trust your employees? Don't know your setup, but I'm assuming you're not manning the register 24/7, and I know of more than one case where an employer's pistol has gone missing (sometimes to end up being used in a crime).

Also, as I think Jesse is getting at - what good does the pistol do you if you're across the room and it's in the cash register?

...
There isn't much point in keeping the gun in the state you describe either. Modern guns are designed to be left chambered. There was a case where a business owner was attacked in his office and his arm or hand or something was broken by the attacker. He made it to his gun to discover he wasn't capable of chambering the round with a broken arm. Little good it did him.

The advantage of a revolver....

This all comes down to Texas law. I'd do some research and make sure you fully understand it. I really don't imagine it's that difficult to get a conceal and carry permit in Texas? You'd be WAY better off with the weapon on you versus off you.

Absolutely. You don't want to end up being on the wrong side of the law, even in good faith, especially if it's the day for whatever group does the hotel inspections to come by.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

That's a scenario I had frankly not considered. It would be extremely difficult for someone to break into the office after hours (the door is extremely stout), but I suppose it's possible.

Right now, we are in the start-up phase of this business and therefore are never leaving the premises altogether, so it's not an issue -- but that situation will change once we hire staff. At that point, we'll have to take the gun out of the office, back into our living quarters, since I doubt any staff members will be trained in the use of firearms.

I see you've already addressed my previous post.

...

I thought of that, too, but there's one HUGE problem -- we're on a semi-tropical island. The "uniform" here consists of an airplane-themed Hawaiian shirt, shorts, and sandals. Ain't no "concealing" a gun on this island, mon!

Look into whatever it was Magnum P.I. did.

Of course...you'll have to get rid of that little 9mm if you're going to follow in his footsteps....

And become a Tigers fan.... And grow a mustache....

 

[wabower]

I have it on good authority that TX CHL's are reasonably easy to obtain, but expect 45-60 days for processing of the application and issuance of the permit.

As a property owner or lessee, you have the option of allowing or disallowing concealed weapons on your property, without respect to whether it's a business or home, unless it's a bar or pro sporting venue. That of course assumes the carrier is a law-abiding citizen who gives a rats about the laws.

Strangely (to me) the right to carry concealed does not extend to the right to carry non-concealed. So if I carry my old .38 service revolver from my "Commissioner Gordon" days with the PD (and for which I have a variety of belt and shoulder holsters), it can't be carried so it is visible to the naked eye.

My two cents...

I wouldn't have the gun somewhere you aren't. The last thing you want is a bad guy to jump the counter, find your gun and your cash. Now he shoots you with your gun. In my house my loaded guns are either with me or in a state where they can't be fired without a lot of effort.

Think of it this way - someone breaks into the register in the middle of the night. They find your gun. You wake up. Now you have to battle the attacker that is armed with your 9mm using your wife's .22 handgun. Not good. Now if you had a 12 gauge in your sleeping quarters things would be a bit better.

There isn't much point in keeping the gun in the state you describe either. Modern guns are designed to be left chambered. There was a case where a business owner was attacked in his office and his arm or hand or something was broken by the attacker. He made it to his gun to discover he wasn't capable of chambering the round with a broken arm. Little good it did him.

This all comes down to Texas law. I'd do some research and make sure you fully understand it. I really don't imagine it's that difficult to get a conceal and carry permit in Texas? You'd be WAY better off with the weapon on you versus off you.

 

[jesse]

The "uniform" here consists of an airplane-themed Hawaiian shirt, shorts, and sandals. Ain't no "concealing" a gun on this island, mon!

Actually - that'd be damn easy to conceal with. Hawaiian shirts are loose and long. You could easily carry with an inside the pants holster. I use: http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/I...efault.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName

You could also carry with a SmartCarry http://www.smartcarry.com/

My modes of carry are either:
1.) Springfield XD40 chambered in an inside the pants holster on my right hip. A button up shirt that isn't tucked in works fine with either jeans or shorts. You can do the tuck-in thing but I prefer not to. This is my preferred carry method.

2.) Springfield XD40 in a SmartCarry (I do this when I go the gym or go running at night)

3.) Ruger LCP .380 in my pocket. It's better than nothing but I'd hate to have to need it.

 

[Keith Lane]

Jay, you are in Texas now, right?
Did not the State send you a welcoming package with a collection of firearms from which to choose?
If not, I'd contact the governor or the state attorney general, or at least the owner of the nearest barbeque restaurant.

 

[colohan]

Personally, I'd move the gun from where you have it now, to somewhere (anywhere) different.

Why? Because you just posted your full name, the name of your home and business (with a convenient link to a web site with a map), and the locations of your weapons on a web site anyone can read and anyone can find easily through search engines. If you are scared enough of criminals to have a gun, I figure you should take care to not tell them where to go steal it.

Edit: as a matter of fact, this thread currently shows up on page 2 of the Google results for the query [gun Port Aransas].

Chris

 

[Unbeliever]

There are a lot of good waist holsters that are very low profile. Both under/inside and over/outside the waistband. I met one guy with a tucked in shirt who was carrying that until he told me, I didn't realize he was carrying concealed.

You're not going to carry a hand cannon in one of those, but any of the good Personal Defense pistols will do fine.

--Carlos V.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Personally, I'd move the gun from where you have it now, to somewhere (anywhere) different.

Why? Because you just posted your full name, the name of your home and business (with a convenient link to a web site with a map), and the locations of your weapons on a web site anyone can read and anyone can find easily through search engines. If you are scared enough of criminals to have a gun, I figure you should take care to not tell them where to go steal it.

Edit: as a matter of fact, this thread currently shows up on page 2 of the Google results for the query [gun Port Aransas].

Chris

Interesting post. Somehow I doubt the folks who would rob a motel on an island in the Gulf of Mexico are on P of A (or Google, for that matter), but I could be wrong.

In real life, quite frankly, if a bad guy with a gun comes into the motel and demands money, he's gonna get it. And anything else he wants, for that matter. IMHO, you don't keep a gun under the counter in order to get into a gunfight. You keep a gun so that when a big guy with a knife or a ball bat or just his fists comes in and demands money, you have him (literally) out-gunned, and can hold him till the cops arrive.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay, you are in Texas now, right?
Did not the State send you a welcoming package with a collection of firearms from which to choose?
If not, I'd contact the governor or the state attorney general, or at least the owner of the nearest barbeque restaurant.

Actually, I've not found any significant difference between Texas and Iowa WRT to firearms. In fact, I've been unable to find a shooting range near the island, which has surprised me. (Maybe folks just shoot anywhere here?)

 

[Unbeliever]

Also a good reference, if you're going for a CHL:

http://www.texaschlforum.com/

--Carlos V.

 

[ausrere]

This all comes down to Texas law. I'd do some research and make sure you fully understand it. I really don't imagine it's that difficult to get a conceal and carry permit in Texas? You'd be WAY better off with the weapon on you versus off you.

In Texas you don't need a carry permit to strap a weapon to your hip and carry it in plain site on your own property. Doesn't matter if it's home or business. If there is even a slight chance that anyone 16 and under would have access to a weapon kept in the office, I would highly recommend you not keep there. It's an offense not to secure a weapon in an area accessible to children under 17.

 

[TMetzinger]

If you don't feel a "need" to carry a gun because you're worried about criminal activity, I'd suggest you buy a good safe and keep the weapons there, and make it part of your routine to inventory it periodically and KEEP A LOG - that goes a long way to addressing liability should one of your weapons go missing with one of your staff or guests.

If you are concerned about protection, then what everyone else said is right on - keep the weapon on your person, ready for use, or in the aforementioned safe.

 

[dmccormack]

If you don't feel a "need" to carry a gun because you're worried about criminal activity, I'd suggest you buy a good safe and keep the weapons there, and make it part of your routine to inventory it periodically and KEEP A LOG - that goes a long way to addressing liability should one of your weapons go missing with one of your staff or guests.

If you are concerned about protection, then what everyone else said is right on - keep the weapon on your person, ready for use, or in the aforementioned safe.

Best advice right there. End of Thread.

 

[Anthony]

^^^^^^^

Yep!

Get the CHL or keep it an a safe. Also, there is no reason ot have a gun unless its ready to go. That means magazine fully inserted, and a round in the chamber.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Jay: Take the concealed carry course when you can. It will review the laws here in Texas and give you the option to carry a concealed weapon when you want to (here and in several other states). It also covers some other good material like how to deescalate a confrontation and my be taught by a local LEO or someone who knows a lot of responsible local shooters/gun owners.

I wouldn't keep a gun in a place folks would normally suspect. Agree with what has been said about it being ready to use and on your person or secured.

Hope the new business is going well. I'm sure there are places you can shoot; ask around.

Best,

Dave

 

[Jay Honeck]

Hope the new business is going well. I'm sure there are places you can shoot; ask around.

Best,

Dave

Thanks, Dave. We found the motel in worse condition than we had expected (a side effect of closing the deal in December, but not taking possession until April -- the seller let EVERYTHING go to hell), but in our first two weeks we've managed to address all the deferred maintenance issues, completely refurbish the pool area, add a hot tub, re-do all the landscaping, and a billion other little things not worth mentioning.

Business has actually been better than expected, with a couple of sellout nights already. Considering that April and early May are considered to be the off-OFF-season down here, I'm pleased. Mustang Island really IS paradise, with almost perfect weather and miles of lovely, white-sand beaches. Best of all, that damned oil spill is 500 miles away, and going AWAY from us! :smile:

As for shooting ranges, still no joy.

 

[Jay Honeck]

If you don't feel a "need" to carry a gun because you're worried about criminal activity, I'd suggest you buy a good safe and keep the weapons there, and make it part of your routine to inventory it periodically and KEEP A LOG - that goes a long way to addressing liability should one of your weapons go missing with one of your staff or guests.

Good advice, thanks. Right now we have no desk staff employees, but that will be changing over the next few weeks. At that point, no weapons will be kept in the office.

Statistically there is less crime on this island than there was in Iowa City, so I believe we are as safe here as we could be anywhere in the U.S.. That said, the situation of living in/with the business exposes my family to potential crime more than our previous living conditions, and I'd literally rather be safe than sorry. IMHO, having a self defense gun in a safe is like leaving gas on the ground -- when you really need it, it won't do you much good there.

As for wearing the gun on my hip, as others have mentioned, that's a little too over the top for me. The vibe on the island is very Jimmy Buffet laid back, and the sight of a hotelier walking around like George Patton would (at best) invite ridicule.

As for wearing it concealed, that's an option I'll look into. Now that I'm looking at it, Mary's cute little Walther could easily be carried in a large pocket in my shorts, actually. Not much stopping power, there, but that red laser sight would certainly make a statement...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Also, there is no reason ot have a gun unless its ready to go. That means magazine fully inserted, and a round in the chamber.

I'm not sure of that, although I'm not sure how to prove anything one way or another.

Here's my philosophy: If a guy comes in and sticks a gun in my face, I'm gonna hand him the keys to the place. No way am I going to make a grab for my gun and start a shoot-out.

If (on the other hand) a guy comes in with a knife or a ball-bat, he's going to be on the other side of the counter, at least at first. He's probably going to demand that I open the register and give him all the money. (Won't he be surprised when he gets a handfull of credit card receipts! But I digress...)

That (in theory) should give me time to cock and deploy the weapon from beneath/near the register.

My other theory is that robberies rarely happen "blindly", on a first visit. Bad guys usually come in and check out the surroundings first, and the vibe these guys give off is often apparent. Picking up on this vibe is a key to preparedness.

We've never been robbed at our motel in Iowa City, but we have been scoped out by bad guys. One time in particular, two large young men, obviously gang-bangers (lots of gold chains, tattoos, etc.) and not our usual clientele, came into the lobby during the afternoon while I was working the desk alone. They stood around awkwardly, not asking any questions pertinent to the hotel, and the whole vibe was one of potential violence.

Not having a weapon, I came out from behind the desk, walked over to my wireless webcam, mounted near where our brochures were displayed, offered them a brochure and very deliberately adjusted the camera, all the while making aimless small talk.

They got the message, and left.

 

[jlwilson]

If (on the other hand) a guy comes in with a knife or a ball-bat, he's going to be on the other side of the counter, at least at first. He's probably going to demand that I open the register and give him all the money. (Won't he be surprised when he gets a handfull of credit card receipts! But I digress...)

That (in theory) should give me time to cock and deploy the weapon from beneath/near the register.

Only you know your skill level and the intricacies of your situation, but I have to agree that cocked and locked is the only state a weapon to be 'potentially' used for self-defense should be in. And remember, unless you have had real law enforcement type training on how to hold a perpetrator, it's not going to be like you see on TV. If the person is hopped up on some kind of drug it will be even worse. I don't know of any top level firearms trainer ( and I personally know most of them) that would ever suggest pulling a gun if you do not absolutely intend to use it. In court, as Massad Ayoob teaches, you must be stopping the threat of severe bodily harm or death. If you get the chance google the Tueller Drill. It's an eye-opener regarding how quickly an assailant can close a gap. Then go to your local range with a shot timer. Have your firearm in the state that you mentioned before and on the buzzer, get your firearm ready and fire a shot at a 7 yard target. I think you'll be surprised at the amount of time it actually takes to get that shot off - and that's assuming everything goes well. You'll add significant amounts of time if the magazine doesn't completely seat or you short cycle the action or any number of potential malfunctions that can happen while you're in the stress of the situation. And in those precious seconds, the perp has you. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Only you know your skill level and the intricacies of your situation, but I have to agree that cocked and locked is the only state a weapon to be 'potentially' used for self-defense should be in. And remember, unless you have had real law enforcement type training on how to hold a perpetrator, it's not going to be like you see on TV. If the person is hopped up on some kind of drug it will be even worse. I don't know of any top level firearms trainer ( and I personally know most of them) that would ever suggest pulling a gun if you do not absolutely intend to use it. In court, as Massad Ayoob teaches, you must be stopping the threat of severe bodily harm or death. If you get the chance google the Tueller Drill. It's an eye-opener regarding how quickly an assailant can close a gap. Then go to your local range with a shot timer. Have your firearm in the state that you mentioned before and on the buzzer, get your firearm ready and fire a shot at a 7 yard target. I think you'll be surprised at the amount of time it actually takes to get that shot off - and that's assuming everything goes well. You'll add significant amounts of time if the magazine doesn't completely seat or you short cycle the action or any number of potential malfunctions that can happen while you're in the stress of the situation. And in those precious seconds, the perp has you. Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for the input. Upon consideration of your (and others) advice, I've fully seated the magazine. I'll still have to cock the weapon, but at least that's one less thing to worry about, should the need arise.

Hopefully, the mere sight of a stainless steel S&W 9mm, pointed in your face, would be enough to cause any bad guy to flee. I've had a gun pointed at me in anger just once, and it certainly made *me* stop in my tracks!

 

[dmccormack]

Have your firearm in the state that you mentioned before and on the buzzer, get your firearm ready and fire a shot at a 7 yard target. I think you'll be surprised at the amount of time it actually takes to get that shot off - and that's assuming everything goes well. You'll add significant amounts of time if the magazine doesn't completely seat or you short cycle the action or any number of potential malfunctions that can happen while you're in the stress of the situation. And in those precious seconds, the perp has you. Just my 2 cents...

Which is why a knife is a much better close-quarter weapon.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Which is why a knife is a much better close-quarter weapon.

Ah, the Special Forces background comes to light

Using a knife properly takes skill also, as you know. Long ago, in hand-to-hand combat training, we were taught to try to run if someone pulled a knife. Tougher to out-run a bullet.
Interesting that here in Texas, a concealed carry permit allows one to carry a gun, but not a knife (of some other martial arts type weapons).

Another saying is, no one emerges from a knife fight, uncut (meaning between folks that know how to use one).

Best,

Dave

Law of Close Encounters - The probability of meeting someone you know increases dramatically when you are with someone you don't want to be seen with.

 

[PilotAlan]

Which is why a knife is a much better close-quarter weapon.

You take a knife, I'll take a gun.
At least one of use will be dead at the end of the encounter. I'll be lacerated, you'll be ventilated.

That said, few people are well trained with either knives or guns. A weakly trained pistol user is more dangerous than a weakly trained knife user. A well trained knife user will kill a weakly trained gun user, but the opposite is true as well.

 

[dmccormack]

You take a knife, I'll take a gun.
At least one of use will be dead at the end of the encounter. I'll be lacerated, you'll be ventilated.

That said, few people are well trained with either knives or guns. A weakly trained pistol user is more dangerous than a weakly trained knife user. A well trained knife user will kill a weakly trained gun user, but the opposite is true as well.

What type "gun?" Is it chambered? How far apart are we? What are the conditions? (Night, cold, windy, noisy, etc)

Yeah -- not so simple.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

What type "gun?" Is it chambered? How far apart are we? What are the conditions? (Night, cold, windy, noisy, etc)

Yeah -- not so simple.

Exactly.

To be effective, you've got to get a gun out, you've got to remember to flip the safety off, if you don't carry it cocked (and I personally think you're nuts if you do so) you've got to either cock it and/or perhaps chamber a round, and then you've got to make a conscious decision on who to aim it at, then you have to aim it, then you have to pull the trigger, then the bullet has to hit whatever you're shooting at, and then the bullet has to stop whatever it is you're shooting at.

If you want to do a a little experiment, go to a safe location with a buddy, have him shake up a can of soda while you've got your back turned and hands in your pocket and girlfriend/wife (say you're just walking home from the game in Phoenix on a late Saturday evening) with her arm through yours, have him throw it on the ground no further than 3 yards away, then have him say "go." With your pistol in its handy-dandy IWB holster, spin around and try to hit that can. If you hit it, great - see if you can hit it again after it's exploded all over you. If you can hit anywhere in the vicinity of the can such that you'd have hit a human body on the very first shot, I'd be impressed.

If a soda can's too small, line up a row of 4-5 empty 55-gal. drums, have your buddy tape something to one of them, and then do the above in the same form - I'd be very impressed if you could complete it in less than 3 seconds. If I've got a knife and am running full tilt, I can cover the better part of 40 yards in 3 seconds.

If you really want to try to accurately simulate it, have your buddy throw a clod of dirt at you, just in an attempt at providing a distraction that would be present if you're facing death or serious injury.

If you miss in those settings, or take more than 2-3 seconds, consider whether you'd be able to effectively defend yourself with a pistol when a guy with a knife is running at you full tilt and hopped up on something like LSD.

Point: don't discount the threat somebody with a knife presents, and don't exaggerate the contingent chance a gun gives you.

 

[dmccormack]

I can cover the better part of 40 yards in 3 seconds.

Dude!! seriously??

 

[Jay Honeck]

Dude!! seriously??

Seems unlikely.

http://speedendurance.com/2008/01/24/fastest-40-yard-dash-time/

Still, the phrase "better part of" gives him plausible deniability, and a reasonable out.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Exactly.

To be effective, you've got to get a gun out, you've got to remember to flip the safety off, if you don't carry it cocked (and I personally think you're nuts if you do so) you've got to either cock it and/or perhaps chamber a round, and then you've got to make a conscious decision on who to aim it at, then you have to aim it, then you have to pull the trigger, then the bullet has to hit whatever you're shooting at, and then the bullet has to stop whatever it is you're shooting at.

If you want to do a a little experiment, go to a safe location with a buddy, have him shake up a can of soda while you've got your back turned and hands in your pocket and girlfriend/wife (say you're just walking home from the game in Phoenix on a late Saturday evening) with her arm through yours, have him throw it on the ground no further than 3 yards away, then have him say "go." With your pistol in its handy-dandy IWB holster, spin around and try to hit that can. If you hit it, great - see if you can hit it again after it's exploded all over you. If you can hit anywhere in the vicinity of the can such that you'd have hit a human body on the very first shot, I'd be impressed.

If a soda can's too small, line up a row of 4-5 empty 55-gal. drums, have your buddy tape something to one of them, and then do the above in the same form - I'd be very impressed if you could complete it in less than 3 seconds. If I've got a knife and am running full tilt, I can cover the better part of 40 yards in 3 seconds.

If you really want to try to accurately simulate it, have your buddy throw a clod of dirt at you, just in an attempt at providing a distraction that would be present if you're facing death or serious injury.

If you miss in those settings, or take more than 2-3 seconds, consider whether you'd be able to effectively defend yourself with a pistol when a guy with a knife is running at you full tilt and hopped up on something like LSD.

Point: don't discount the threat somebody with a knife presents, and don't exaggerate the contingent chance a gun gives you.

One nice part about my stainless steel S&W 9mm is that it makes a very effective club. If I can't fire it, I can sure knock your block off with it.

Mary's largely composite Walther? Not so much. It's cute, and light, and so easy to aim and fire -- but a rock would be a better club.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Dude!! seriously??

I used to run a 40 in about 4.7-8 from a dead start, so I figured 3 seconds if I were already moving would let me cover at least, what, 25 of it?

To be fair, I was 18 at the time. I'm old and fat now.

 

[jesse]

Exactly.

To be effective, you've got to get a gun out, you've got to remember to flip the safety off, if you don't carry it cocked (and I personally think you're nuts if you do so) you've got to either cock it and/or perhaps chamber a round, and then you've got to make a conscious decision on who to aim it at, then you have to aim it, then you have to pull the trigger, then the bullet has to hit whatever you're shooting at, and then the bullet has to stop whatever it is you're shooting at.

That is why I carry guns that are always chambered and have no user-operated safety. Not much you can forget to do or screw up on my Springfield. You pull the trigger, it goes boom.

If you want to do a a little experiment, go to a safe location with a buddy, have him shake up a can of soda while you've got your back turned and hands in your pocket and girlfriend/wife (say you're just walking home from the game in Phoenix on a late Saturday evening) with her arm through yours, have him throw it on the ground no further than 3 yards away, then have him say "go." With your pistol in its handy-dandy IWB holster, spin around and try to hit that can. If you hit it, great - see if you can hit it again after it's exploded all over you. If you can hit anywhere in the vicinity of the can such that you'd have hit a human body on the very first shot, I'd be impressed.

I've done a lot of drills from 3 yards (which is incredibly close. good to do because it shows you how in your face the shooting would likely do) out to about 17 yards. I can hit a human body pretty quickly at any of those distances. It's unlikely I'd hit a soda can without several seconds of aiming. I don't try to shoot with that sort of precession.

If a soda can's too small, line up a row of 4-5 empty 55-gal. drums, have your buddy tape something to one of them, and then do the above in the same form - I'd be very impressed if you could complete it in less than 3 seconds. If I've got a knife and am running full tilt, I can cover the better part of 40 yards in 3 seconds.

Man. You must be fast as hell. I really don't see how you can cover 40 yards in 3 seconds. You'd have to run at 27.2 mph. That's probably a world record.

If you miss in those settings, or take more than 2-3 seconds, consider whether you'd be able to effectively defend yourself with a pistol when a guy with a knife is running at you full tilt and hopped up on something like LSD.

Don't confuse the threat. The average threat is not a guy running full tilt out of the alley at you at 27 mph world record speeds with a knife. The average gunfight will have the threat within 7 yards. It will last 3 to 5 seconds and 3 to 4 shots will be fired. Once the bullets start flying things end incredibly quickly. Often there is a bit of a confrontation stage before that occurs.

A proper holster does help. I can unholster and be in a shooting position in less than a second. If you have some hard to access holster or a bunch of clips or goofy safeties to deal with...It'd be much harder.

A knife can be a hell of a weapon in the proper hands of someone in outstanding physical condition that has undergone intense training. Most people aren't in outstanding physical condition and would hesitate greatly with a knife. I would be willing to bet that the average knife vs gun conflict does not end well for the man armed with a knife.

If I had my weapon holstered and a man came out of nowhere from a distance of 7 yards intent on stabbing me. He'd probably end up stabbing me, no doubt. I would put more effort into controlling his knife then I would drawing my weapon in the time that would be permitted in that scenario. If I can break free of the person I will retreat and draw and fire. I have no doubt there are plenty of Dave S. special forces type people that could end me very quickly with a knife. Good thing is, they're not the average criminal threat.

This doesn't even cover the legal questions. Some states you can use a gun versus a knife - other states not so much. It's a good idea to understand the law but there are times where you might not have time to think about it.

 

[dmccormack]

I used to run a 40 in about 4.7-8 from a dead start, so I figured 3 seconds if I were already moving would let me cover at least, what, 25 of it?

To be fair, I was 18 at the time. I'm old and fat now.

That's pretty fast.

I ain't as fast as I useta be either, but I'm far more devious.

 

[dmccormack]

This doesn't even cover the legal questions. Some states you can use a gun versus a knife - other states not so much. It's a good idea to understand the law but there are times where you might not have time to think about it.

I'm fairly certain that in every jurisdiction a knife wielding assailant presents a clear and present deadly threat.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

That is why I carry guns that are always chambered and have no user-operated safety. Not much you can forget to do or screw up on my Springfield. You pull the trigger, it goes boom.


I've done a lot of drills from 3 yards (which is incredibly close. good to do because it shows you how in your face the shooting would likely do) out to about 17 yards. I can hit a human body pretty quickly at any of those distances. It's unlikely I'd hit a soda can without several seconds of aiming. I don't try to shoot with that sort of precession.


Man. You must be fast as hell. I really don't see how you can cover 40 yards in 3 seconds. You'd have to run at 27.2 mph. That's probably a world record.

Don't confuse the threat. The average threat is not a guy running full tilt out of the alley at you at 27 mph world record speeds with a knife. The average gunfight will have the threat within 7 yards. It will last 3 to 5 seconds and 3 to 4 shots will be fired. Once the bullets start flying things end incredibly quickly. Often there is a bit of a confrontation stage before that occurs.

A proper holster does help. I can unholster and be in a shooting position in less than a second. If you have some hard to access holster or a bunch of clips or goofy safeties to deal with...It'd be much harder.

A knife can be a hell of a weapon in the proper hands of someone in outstanding physical condition that has undergone intense training. Most people aren't in outstanding physical condition and would hesitate greatly with a knife. I would be willing to bet that the average knife vs gun conflict does not end well for the man armed with a knife.

If I had my weapon holstered and a man came out of nowhere from a distance of 7 yards intent on stabbing me. He'd probably end up stabbing me, no doubt. I would put more effort into controlling his knife then I would drawing my weapon in the time that would be permitted in that scenario. If I can break free of the person I will retreat and draw and fire. I have no doubt there are plenty of Dave S. special forces type people that could end me very quickly with a knife. Good thing is, they're not the average criminal threat.

Those are all good points. But, my ultimate point is that if someone's coming after you, they've already got the drop on you - you're at a disadvantage, and unless you can perform a somewhat complex series of events flawlessly the very first time you ever to do it for real in a situation where you're not necessarily ready for it and when you've only got a very few seconds to do it in, a gun's not going to do you much good.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against concealed carry, gun ownership, or anything of the sort. In fact, far from it. I'm just not particularly sanguine about the chances having a gun on my person would give me in any situation, especially if I were already at a disadvantage.

 

[dmccormack]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against concealed carry, gun ownership, or anything of the sort. In fact, far from it. I'm just not particularly sanguine about the chances having a gun on my person would give me in any situation, especially if I were already at a disadvantage.

Yep.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

That's pretty fast.

What's nuts is that, even if I could come close to those speeds these days, that would put me in a foot race with offensive linemen. At best, it would be neck and neck with the d-linemen. I mean, really? I'm 190 - these guys are, what, 300+? If memory serves, these times are from a running start (the clock starts when you're up to full steam), but still....

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers

Crazy.

I ain't as fast as I useta be either, but I'm far more devious.

Trickery's about all I got left these days. Granted, law school bumped that up about 200% for me, but I'm still not all that tricky.

 

[jlwilson]

A proper holster does help. I can unholster and be in a shooting position in less than a second. If you have some hard to access holster or a bunch of clips or goofy safeties to deal with...It'd be much harder.

Absolutely. And practicing the draw from that holster is really important as well. If you're going to carry concealed, practice drawing with your concealment garment too. I've seen lots of really good shooters who put tens of thousands of rounds downrange every year get caught up in their vest or shirt when drawing their gun just in competition. Add the stress of a real situation and you could set yourself up for absolute failure. In my days of heavy competition where I was shooting almost daily and firing somewhere north of 50,000 rounds a year, I could draw from concealment and hit the 'A' zone of the target in about 1.3 seconds. Even with the muscle memory I have built over the years, at this point I don't think I could get the accurate shot off in under 1.5 to 2 seconds.

And while it's true that action beats reaction every time, if you're in a situation where the little hairs on the back of your neck are uneasy, make sure you're aware of things like escape routes and available cover. Doing something that the perp doesn't expect can often swing the advantage back to your favor.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

That's pretty fast.

I ain't as fast as I useta be either, but I'm far more devious.

That's where Dan and I have a commonality. SF training wasn't about being the biggest and toughest; it was more about being smarter than the bad guy and doing the unexpected. I realize that there are situations where one must face off mano-a-mano,but I was always able to avoid the direct attack into strength.

Best,

Dave