A question for gun and business owners

[PilotAlan]

Those are all good points. But, my ultimate point is that if someone's coming after you, they've already got the drop on you - you're at a disadvantage, and unless you can perform a somewhat complex series of events flawlessly the very first time you ever to do it for real in a situation where you're not necessarily ready for it and when you've only got a very few seconds to do it in, a gun's not going to do you much good.

In that scenario, a knife's not going to do you any good, either.

My point is that with equivalent levels of training, the gunfighter is likely the more deadly threat. I can draw and deploy a pistol faster than you can a knife. If you have a knife in your hand and I have a pistol in my hand, and we're both aware of each other's presence, I'll win.
If you have the drop on me then it doesn't matter what I'm armed with, but even then you can shoot me before you can get to me with the knife. You still have to close with me and partially give up your advantage by closing with me. With a pistol, you can drop me at the first opportunity.

You can probably kill me with a knife in a straight up encounter, but you are the exception. I can draw and fire two round center-mass in less than 1.5sec, and have done so in real life. But my level of training and experience is several standard deviations above the mean.
Knives have certain advantages, and within certain envelopes they are probably nearly unbeatable. But the envelope of supremacy for the knife is very small.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm fairly certain that in every jurisdiction a knife wielding assailant presents a clear and present deadly threat.

The rules at my old agency were that if a man was hostile with a knife within 7 yards you killed him, coming at you or not. 7 yards is probably less than 3 seconds running time for an average guy.

Our rules also stated that you responded with the next higher level of force - he has a hand, you have a fist. He has a fist, you use an intermediate weapon like an ASP or chemical spray. He has a knife, you use your gun.

In the CG I carried the M9 Beretta, with a round in the chamber and the safety on. I could draw, flick off the safety and fire the first round double-action in a couple of seconds or less. Now I carry a Sig 239 with a round in the chamber. There's no separate safety - you pull the trigger, it goes boom. I'm comfortable with it but I'm MUCH more careful about it now with a seven-year-old in the house. Even though she knows not to touch it, that weapon is either in my physical control or it's locked up.

We've drifted away from the original point (right crosswind?). Jay, if your real worry is for the "night time" when you're "off duty" living in the hotel but asleep in your bed, consider a shotgun instead of a handgun for that situation. It's a lot easier to put the shotgun by your bed when you go to sleep, without a round in the chamber, and rack a round if something wakes you up. The sound of a 12 gauge pump cycling is a deterrent all by itself. And you don't have to worry as much about accuracy OR killing someone five rooms down by accident.

And when you wake up, put the shotgun back in the gun locker and go about your business.

 

[wabower]

I don't kid myself that my tactical skills and agility level is any longer sufficient to win a surprise attack. I can still shoot straight, but not quickly compared to back when, and my reaction time could probably be measured with a kitchen timer rather than a stopwatch.

I carry now because I don't want somebody else dictating the terms of engagement in situations that over which I have some control if I have a dog that barks over here and bites over there. If I have any question about how things are developing, the gun will be in my hand, not in the holster. Another reason I have always liked jackets with big pockets.

 

[Aviator N434S]

Hello,
I live in Alabama and several business owners carry openly in their business. You do not have to hide in your business TX gun laws are less strict than Alabama. It TX I saw a deal on TV where a guy thought someone was stealing his truck so he jumped in another car and was going down the highway shooting at the guy. When the cops got there they asked what happened checked his gun and gave it back to him with no charges. Anyway I would just get a nice .45 and a nice under the shoulder harness and keep it there less likely that a thug would mess with you.

 

[dmccormack]

It TX I saw a deal on TV where a guy thought someone was stealing his truck so he jumped in another car and was going down the highway shooting at the guy. When the cops got there they asked what happened checked his gun and gave it back to him with no charges.

Hunh? This sounds very suspicious....

 

[Anthony]

That's where Dan and I have a commonality. SF training wasn't about being the biggest and toughest; it was more about being smarter than the bad guy and doing the unexpected. I realize that there are situations where one must face off mano-a-mano,but I was always able to avoid the direct attack into strength.

Best,

Dave

Dave,

That has been the philosophy taught in my CCW and handgun courses as well. AVOID, AVOID, AVOID!!! Confrontation is a last resort, and pulling a weapon is an absolute, absoulte last, life saving resort.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

This is a reason I recommended Jay take the CCW course.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
( to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
( the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

One of the problems we are having is not taking the difference between urban and rural areas into consideration. We still have huge amounts of land where one could fire a gun in any direction almost any time and no one would even know. Much different in the city. Police response in rural areas may be very long in coming. Stealing something essential or valuable (like cattle) is still going on here and may be stopped with lethal force.

That being said, it's messy if you use deadly force. There will be an investigation and charges may be filed. We've had several cases where CCW holders have used deadly force and some where when a perp was fleeing. The one in my area was a no bill.

Best,

Dave

 

[jesse]

This is a reason I recommended Jay take the CCW course.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
( to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
( the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

One of the problems we are having is not taking the difference between urban and rural areas into consideration. We still have huge amounts of land where one could fire a gun in any direction almost any time and no one would even know. Much different in the city. Police response in rural areas may be very long in coming. Stealing something essential or valuable (like cattle) is still going on here and may be stopped with lethal force.

That being said, it's messy if you use deadly force. There will be an investigation and charges may be filed. We've had several cases where CCW holders have used deadly force and some where when a perp was fleeing. The one in my area was a no bill.

Best,

Dave

That is a hell of a lot less restrictive than most states. I'm fairly confident there is nothing on the Nebraska books that permits deadly force for any of those crimes.

AFAIK - in Nebraska it pretty much comes down to someone having the ability and demonstrating their intent to take your life - or they're kidnapping a kid - or they're committing rape. I'm not aware of other exceptions.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

This is a reason I recommended Jay take the CCW course.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
( to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
( the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

One of the problems we are having is not taking the difference between urban and rural areas into consideration. We still have huge amounts of land where one could fire a gun in any direction almost any time and no one would even know. Much different in the city. Police response in rural areas may be very long in coming. Stealing something essential or valuable (like cattle) is still going on here and may be stopped with lethal force.

That being said, it's messy if you use deadly force. There will be an investigation and charges may be filed. We've had several cases where CCW holders have used deadly force and some where when a perp was fleeing. The one in my area was a no bill.

Best,

Dave

Blech. Note that this statute references another statute (9.41) - meaning you've got to be familiar with two statutes.

At least if you've taken some kind of course on it and screw something up, you can say, "look, I took the course, I took this very seriously, and I acted in good faith the whole time."

That's a whole lot more convincing to a prosecutor and/or a judge/jury than not being able to say that.

 

[Trapper John]

Blech. Note that this statute references another statute (9.41) - meaning you've got to be familiar with two statutes.

At least if you've taken some kind of course on it and screw something up, you can say, "look, I took the course, I took this very seriously, and I acted in good faith the whole time."

That's a whole lot more convincing to a prosecutor and/or a judge/jury than not being able to say that.

That's on the criminal side, but what about the civil side, like a wrongful death suit?

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

That's on the criminal side, but what about the civil side, like a wrongful death suit?

I don't know. A lot of "castle doctrine" or "make my day" laws/schemes absolve of both criminal and civil liability.

In my eyes, the bottom line is that you don't take a life unless yours - or someone else's - is in danger. I don't say that because of my moral views, which I purposefully don't disclose here. Instead, I say that because of the practicalities of the situation - there aren't many people, at least not reasonable ones, who could blame you for killing in lieu of being killed. You're pretty safe in that situation, no matter where you are.

Go beyond that, however, and you're opening the door to a lot of potential consequences.

 

[Jeanie]

Tim wrote: Jay, if your real worry is for the "night time" when you're "off duty" living in the hotel but asleep in your bed, consider a shotgun instead of a handgun for that situation. It's a lot easier to put the shotgun by your bed when you go to sleep, without a round in the chamber, and rack a round if something wakes you up. The sound of a 12 gauge pump cycling is a deterrent all by itself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That worked for my mother once. She was asleep upstairs heard the back upstairs porch door being rattled... she got up, got the shotgun, wandered over to the door - opened the storm screen and saw a BIG BIG guy there - She was 70 w/ white hair mind you and in her robe - She just smiled and held up the shot gun... pumped a round in and said, "Do come in" .... He ran off and didn't come back. She went back to bed w the shotgun in bed with her waiting. Never had another problem- word must have gone thru the hood not to bother the old lady in that house
I used to carry my 410 in the backseat of my car on the highway between college and home when I'd go for holiday visits. Helped me once get a guy to go away and leave me alone. I like shotguns -
I guess really for Jay's purpose it just needs to be whatever he is most comfortable with and frankly, on Port Aransas I doubt seriously he'll need the weapon. Hope not!

 

[dmccormack]

used to carry my 410 in the backseat of my car on the highway between college and home when I'd go for holiday visits.

A .410?? Were you afraid of being jumped by birds?

 

[gprellwitz]

Tim wrote: Jay, if your real worry is for the "night time" when you're "off duty" living in the hotel but asleep in your bed, consider a shotgun instead of a handgun for that situation. It's a lot easier to put the shotgun by your bed when you go to sleep, without a round in the chamber, and rack a round if something wakes you up. The sound of a 12 gauge pump cycling is a deterrent all by itself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That worked for my mother once. She was asleep upstairs heard the back upstairs porch door being rattled... she got up, got the shotgun, wandered over to the door - opened the storm screen and saw a BIG BIG guy there - She was 70 w/ white hair mind you and in her robe - She just smiled and held up the shot gun... pumped a round in and said, "Do come in" .... He ran off and didn't come back. She went back to bed w the shotgun in bed with her waiting. Never had another problem- word must have gone thru the hood not to bother the old lady in that house
I used to carry my 410 in the backseat of my car on the highway between college and home when I'd go for holiday visits. Helped me once get a guy to go away and leave me alone. I like shotguns -
I guess really for Jay's purpose it just needs to be whatever he is most comfortable with and frankly, on Port Aransas I doubt seriously he'll need the weapon. Hope not!

Hmmm...

If it were the sound alone that does it, I'd suggest putting the sound of a shell being chambered on your phone and playing it loudly if you're suspicious. I would not recommend using it as your ringtone, however!

 

[Jeanie]

A .410?? Were you afraid of being jumped by birds?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, it happened to be the shotgun I had available ... Guess the guy that was bothering me didn't know he wasn't a dove

 

[ron22]

I would not recommend using it as your ringtone, however!

I did a quick google search and I could not find this ringtone.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

I did a quick google search and I could not find this ringtone.

On a related note, google "iGun," and watch the video. It's definitely NSFW, but ridiculously funny.

 

[ron22]

On a related note, google "iGun," and watch the video. It's definitely NSFW, but ridiculously funny.

 

[TMetzinger]

A .410?? Were you afraid of being jumped by birds?

maybe he had slugs in it!

I still have the .410 that was my first gun. I wouldn't want to get shot by it.

 

[flyersfan31]

If it were me, I'd have a claymore rigged above the door, on the outside. This will cover the escape if the perp gets out of the perimeter. Inside, I'd have a "AAA 5 Diamond Motel" plaque mounted on another Claymore at the front desk. You should be able to trigger it with a panic button below the counter, rigged with a cover for safety of course. I would suggest nice, shrapnel absorbing decor in the direct path of the blast to limit damage. Ideally, the decor would also be polyester or polyester blend to enable easy clean-up of bodily fluids.

Now, and this is just me talking, but I might also have a Phalanx CWIS mounted on top of the motel, maybe disguised as R2D2 or a nice white urn. You could nail any getaway vehicle with that.

 

[wabower]

For many years a mens' wear on E. 11th (near city hall) in KC, MO was well known for their "forward-fashion" line of clothing (we called them zoot-suits). I was not a regular customer of the store, but stopped in occasionally for grins.

High on the side walls around the entire perimeter of the store was a prominent display of recently-dated human sihlouette shooting range targets, each with closely spaced bullet-holes in strategically-placed locations. Nobody ever mentioned the targets and no weapons were visible, but I think everybody understood why they were there.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

If it were me, I'd have a claymore rigged above the door, on the outside. This will cover the escape if the perp gets out of the perimeter. Inside, I'd have a "AAA 5 Diamond Motel" plaque mounted on another Claymore at the front desk. You should be able to trigger it with a panic button below the counter, rigged with a cover for safety of course. I would suggest nice, shrapnel absorbing decor in the direct path of the blast to limit damage. Ideally, the decor would also be polyester or polyester blend to enable easy clean-up of bodily fluids.

Now, and this is just me talking, but I might also have a Phalanx CWIS mounted on top of the motel, maybe disguised as R2D2 or a nice white urn. You could nail any getaway vehicle with that.

Hmmmm. Add a little foo gas for the night effect and I'm with ya!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wcE_4-UK-g&feature=related

Actually, this doesn't demonstrate it well, but we got those to the point they were highly directional. Would shoot out from the 55 gallon drum about 25 yards in an arc and come down on anyone silly enough to stand under that arc. Pretty narrow though at that range. Very illuminating which helped those in bunkers engage folks silly enough to be all lit up!

Best,

Dave

 

[John Baker]

Guns at home, don't want em around my shop. I never have enough cash on hand to make robbing me worthwhile anyway. There darn sure isn't enough to kill someone over. Perhaps beat them half to death, but not kill em.

John

 

[John Baker]

If it were me, I'd have a claymore rigged above the door, on the outside. This will cover the escape if the perp gets out of the perimeter. Inside, I'd have a "AAA 5 Diamond Motel" plaque mounted on another Claymore at the front desk. You should be able to trigger it with a panic button below the counter, rigged with a cover for safety of course. I would suggest nice, shrapnel absorbing decor in the direct path of the blast to limit damage. Ideally, the decor would also be polyester or polyester blend to enable easy clean-up of bodily fluids.

.

Um, you do know that although a claymore mine is a shaped charge so that most of it's explosive power goes toward the enemy, it is still an explosive, and it does have a back blast area? Right?

I think finding someone to sell you a claymore might be somewhat problematic. I also think splaining what you were doing with one to the cops might also be somewhat problematic as well. But then it is Texas, so maybe not.

John

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Um, you do know that although a claymore mine is a shaped charge so that most of it's explosive power goes toward the enemy, it is still an explosive, and it does have a back blast area? Right?

John

John: In RVN we had Navy guys co-located in our compound on the Vam Co Dong River that kept trying to prove your assumption about back blast was incorrect--we tried to tell them. Wrapped claymores with barbed wire and mounted them six feet in the air in their perimeter. Big crowd behind them when an 'expert' demonstrated how effective they were. Medivacs arrived shortly afterward. We tried to warn them; they knew too much.
Couple months later they mounted some to the side of a river boat. When I asked about them, said they would run up to the shore, set off the mines to cover the assault; then, rush badguys. When I told them they would be rushing off the boat because it would be sinking, they asked me to leave.
Next day, they were towing a half sunk boat.

What does it take for some folks to learn? I called higher HQ, said they had no power over the Navy.

Best,

Dave

 

[Jay Honeck]

John: In RVN we had Navy guys co-located in our compound on the Vam Co Dong River that kept trying to prove your assumption about back blast was incorrect--we tried to tell them. Wrapped claymores with barbed wire and mounted them six feet in the air in their perimeter. Big crowd behind them when an 'expert' demonstrated how effective they were. Medivacs arrived shortly afterward. We tried to warn them; they knew too much.
Couple months later they mounted some to the side of a river boat. When I asked about them, said they would run up to the shore, set off the mines to cover the assault; then, rush badguys. When I told them they would be rushing off the boat because it would be sinking, they asked me to leave.
Next day, they were towing a half sunk boat.

What does it take for some folks to learn? I called higher HQ, said they had no power over the Navy.

Best,

Dave

Great story, Dave!

 

[Jay Honeck]

For many years a mens' wear on E. 11th (near city hall) in KC, MO was well known for their "forward-fashion" line of clothing (we called them zoot-suits). I was not a regular customer of the store, but stopped in occasionally for grins.

High on the side walls around the entire perimeter of the store was a prominent display of recently-dated human sihlouette shooting range targets, each with closely spaced bullet-holes in strategically-placed locations. Nobody ever mentioned the targets and no weapons were visible, but I think everybody understood why they were there.

Hmmm... I like the concept, but it's perhaps not subtle enough, for a hospitality business?

 

[SCCutler]

Great story, Dave!

The best stories are always based on the truth; you don't have to make this stuff up!

Hmmm... I like the concept, but it's perhaps not subtle enough, for a hospitality business?

Oh, I don't know, Jay. While I hate to feed a stereotype too far, I am one of the very few people I know who does not have a serious gun. This is, after all, the Republic of Texas.

 

[flyersfan31]

Um, you do know that although a claymore mine is a shaped charge so that most of it's explosive power goes toward the enemy, it is still an explosive, and it does have a back blast area? Right?

I think finding someone to sell you a claymore might be somewhat problematic. I also think splaining what you were doing with one to the cops might also be somewhat problematic as well. But then it is Texas, so maybe not.

John

I'm assuming anyone smart enough to buy and rig Claymores in their motel knows to duck when they hit the switch. :smile:

 

[Jay Honeck]

Oh, I don't know, Jay. While I hate to feed a stereotype too far, I am one of the very few people I know who does not have a serious gun. This is, after all, the Republic of Texas.

On the History Channel's excellent series on the history of the U.S., they stated that Texas has the most guns of any state in the union by FAR -- a legacy of its Wild West days.

 

[John Baker]

John: In RVN we had Navy guys co-located in our compound on the Vam Co Dong River that kept trying to prove your assumption about back blast was incorrect--we tried to tell them. Wrapped claymores with barbed wire and mounted them six feet in the air in their perimeter. Big crowd behind them when an 'expert' demonstrated how effective they were. Medivacs arrived shortly afterward. We tried to warn them; they knew too much.
Couple months later they mounted some to the side of a river boat. When I asked about them, said they would run up to the shore, set off the mines to cover the assault; then, rush badguys. When I told them they would be rushing off the boat because it would be sinking, they asked me to leave.
Next day, they were towing a half sunk boat.

What does it take for some folks to learn? I called higher HQ, said they had no power over the Navy.

Best,

Dave

In demolition training, our instructor told us that a demolition "expert" was a drip under pressure. I have no clue why I still remember that.

John

 

[John Baker]

I'm assuming anyone smart enough to buy and rig Claymores in their motel knows to duck when they hit the switch. :smile:

Being in the same room with a claymore mine is a really bad idea, ducking will not save you. Unless of course, you are ducking behind concrete and you have really good ear and eye protection. Still don't think I would want the experience.

John

 

[jesse]

Oh, I don't know, Jay. While I hate to feed a stereotype too far, I am one of the very few people I know who does not have a serious gun. This is, after all, the Republic of Texas.

Oh you do - somewhere....

 

[wabower]

I probably take up some of Cutler's propensity to lower the average ratio of guns to residents.

On the History Channel's excellent series on the history of the U.S., they stated that Texas has the most guns of any state in the union by FAR -- a legacy of its Wild West days.

 

[jlwilson]

I probably take up some of Cutler's propensity to lower the average ratio of guns to residents.

Since we're now TX residents , I'll bet we offset that ratio in the other direction

 

[Ghery]

In demolition training, our instructor told us that a demolition "expert" was a drip under pressure. I have no clue why I still remember that.

John

That's only half the definition. An "ex" is a has-been, and a "spert (OK, spurt)" is a drip under pressure. Makes it even worse to be called an expert.

 

[jsstevens]

Hmmm... I like the concept, but it's perhaps not subtle enough, for a hospitality business?

Only on the strip in Las Vegas where it would blend right in.

John

 

[jestertoo]

In TX, you can have an unconcealed handgun on any private property where you are invited. This includes your home, business, friend's house/property, job if it's ok with your employer (i.e. gun store etc. You can have a pistol in your car as long as it's concealed. Rifles & Shotguns are much more liberal. You can have a loaded rifle/shotgun in a car window rack in plain view legally, as long as you don't mind having it stolen eventually.