A question about the long 'solo' commercial XC

BrianNC

BrianNC

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I was just noticing the wording of the long XC, at least one point being 250NM from the point of origin and over 300NM total, and had never noticed that the wording seems to allow for it not to be solo. It doesn't really concern me one way or the other, just wanted to see what some of you think about the wording (that's for those of you that would be inclined to unleash your inner sarcasm thinking I'm trying to bypass doing it solo. That's not the purpose of the question).

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board...

I notice it seems to be worded just like the multi requirement. This seems to be saying it can be done with an instructor. I've always been told it was solo, and always read it that way until tonight.

Thoughts?
 
I don't have an answer, but I was also wondering if is something that has to be performed as part of the commercial training, or are you just required to have a flight of that length to qualify. I've got several over 300nm.
 
Rykymus said:
I don't have an answer, but I was also wondering if is something that has to be performed as part of the commercial training, or are you just required to have a flight of that length to qualify. I've got several over 300nm.
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I think you just have to have a flight of that length to qualify. It doesn't have to be for commercial training. If I'd known I'd want to do the commercial one day I would have done that at some point earlier in private or instrument training. You meet many of the requirement of commercial just through your normal flying.
 
Rykymus said:
I don't have an answer, but I was also wondering if is something that has to be performed as part of the commercial training, or are you just required to have a flight of that length to qualify. I've got several over 300nm.
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The long cross country is part of the solo requirements needed to qualify you to take the commercial checkride. Do any of your 300+ mile cross country trips meet the requirements? I had to make a special trip when I did mine because even though I had plenty of longer trips in my logbook by then they were either not solo or they were one leg trips without a stop somewhere.

As far as the rule Brian is asking about, I suspect they added that when they added the option for an instructor to be along for the multi trip. Insurance purposes only and the instructor needs to sit on their hands and shut up.
 
You know, I may have been looking at this wrong though. I forgot to add the part after what I posted:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and...

But it still seems to read the same way with me either way. The second paragraph just seems to continue that the XC can either be solo or with the flight instructor.
 
Seems like another carve out for places that don't want to send their airplanes anywhere without a CFI on board.

I had so many solo long XCs when I did the Commercial SE add on, I never even noticed it.
 
The original "performing the duties" solo substitute was for the commercial multi due to the reality of solo in a world of insurance restrictions. It was later added to other commercial ratings in recognition of similar restrictions and, partly IMO, to be nondiscriminitory.

Note that it is a substitute for the commercial solo flight requirements, not a training requirement. That has a number of consequences, among them:
  • All or nothing. Either all 10 hours of the solo requirements for the rating are met that way or none are.
  • It is not logged as dual received.
  • It is, technically, not logged as solo (I say technically since there's no regulatory reason to log solo after the private except to meet commercial requirements).
In terms of being "part of the commercial training," no. As others said, if you actually do it solo, is an "experience" requirement not a "training" requirement so any solo flight would qualify. But it does have to be after receiving the private certificate*. A long line of both unofficial and official FAA interpretations of the commercial requirement reject the idea we can use private pilot requirements to meet commercial ones. The key wording for that is the "on the areas of operation" language in the reg. It means the commercial standards are at least qualitatively different than the private ones, So, for example, if you did a really long solo as your long solo for the private, you could not also count it for the private.

(*There may be an exception to this, but it would be rare.)
 
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Short answer, yes - the long XC can have an instructor on board. The requirement is to have 10 hours of solo flight or 10 hour as PIC with an instructor on board. Part of that time must be the 300 mile XC.

If an instructor is on board, you ought to think of them as an observer, you must be the PIC. You cannot be just the primary manipulator of the controls and logging PIC.
 
The XC has to be solo or with a flight instructor on board, which is really silly.
 
Yes, it can be with an instructor on board. While it may be silly 9 times out of 10, it actually saved me a solid 7 months. When I started Comm training, I had a special issuance medical (class II) for a very common and easily correctable issue. When I had the procedure to correct the issue, I was qualified for and eventually received a standard, regular medical, but that process took over 7 months. 7 months with no medical. My long XC was completed during this time with an instructor on board. We took care to log it accurately and even made a specific note in the remarks that the flight was completed to meet that specific requirement and cited the appropriate reg. I get why and how the rule could be abused by nanny-types, but it has legitimate applications too.
 
jordane93 said:
I did it solo. It was the most boring 8 hours I logged.
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Mine was a blast. I was living in Denver and did a business trip to Scottsdale, AZ. Treated the round trip as my long cross country. 4 days overall with 3 overnight stays a one day not flown. 11.7 hours on the Hobbs, 493 NM between home and the furthest landing point with shortest leg 244 NM, and 4 landings. And. as a bonus, a bit of a radio problem along the way :)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Mine was a blast. I was living in Denver and did a business trip to Scottsdale, AZ. Treated the round trip as my long cross country. 4 days overall with 3 overnight stays a one day not flown. 11.7 hours on the Hobbs, 493 NM between home and the furthest landing point with shortest leg 244 NM, and 4 landings. And. as a bonus, a bit of a radio problem along the way :)
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I would have loved to make it into a multi day trip but money and scheduling didn't really work out.
 
jordane93 said:
I don't remember but yea I assume I had a massive headwind.
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While training for my PPL a long time ago, my instructor decided we'd fly with some strong winds aloft. We climbed to 3K and turned into the wind, reduced power big time and saw our ground track was going backwards. About that time ATC gave us a call verifying we were a 152 and not a helicopter. He was showing our groundspeed as 0! Guess they didn't show negative numbers as we were definitely flying backwards. :confused:
 
BrianNC said:
I was just noticing the wording of the long XC, at least one point being 250NM from the point of origin and over 300NM total, and had never noticed that the wording seems to allow for it not to be solo. It doesn't really concern me one way or the other, just wanted to see what some of you think about the wording (that's for those of you that would be inclined to unleash your inner sarcasm thinking I'm trying to bypass doing it solo. That's not the purpose of the question).

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board...

I notice it seems to be worded just like the multi requirement. This seems to be saying it can be done with an instructor. I've always been told it was solo, and always read it that way until tonight.

Thoughts?
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I say find someplace that looks fun to fly, and just go do it. I'm going to do mine in the next few weeks or so, I'm planning 8A6 - KMGW - KCKB - 8A6. Working in lunch with my parents when I get to my home town. Going solo. From what I understand, you are supposed to be alone in the airplane (or with a CFI which makes about zero sense), and the trip must be done in the same day.
 
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have to be done in the same day. Doesn't even have to be a round-robin.
 
mtuomi said:
Where do you find this requirement?
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Correct, it does not have to be round robin, hence the "in the same day" thing. To my understanding, that is why it says that the trip must be 250 NM from the point of origin and 300 NM total. Otherwise it would have to obviously be 500 NM if you were to return from where you started. Hence, why it must be done in one day/shot. All I am saying is, best to check with the DPE ahead of time, would hate to show up and him/her not accept the XC. My 2 cents.
 
TRocket said:
Correct, it does not have to be round robin, hence the "in the same day" thing. To my understanding, that is why it says that the trip must be 250 NM from the point of origin and 300 NM total. Otherwise it would have to obviously be 500 NM if you were to return from where you started. Hence, why it must be done in one day/shot. All I am saying is, best to check with the DPE ahead of time, would hate to show up and him/her not accept the XC. My 2 cents.
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The reason for the 300NM total is they want you to go beyond the the 250NM another 50NM just in case it's a one way trip. They want it to be at least 300NM total. But I don't see anywhere where it has to be done in the same day. But I've been wrong before.
 
TRocket said:
Correct, it does not have to be round robin, hence the "in the same day" thing. To my understanding, that is why it says that the trip must be 250 NM from the point of origin and 300 NM total. Otherwise it would have to obviously be 500 NM if you were to return from where you started. Hence, why it must be done in one day/shot. All I am saying is, best to check with the DPE ahead of time, would hate to show up and him/her not accept the XC. My 2 cents.
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I'm sorry, I don't follow you. Where does it say it has to be in one day?
If I fly X->Y 250nm, stay overnight, then go to Z 50nm, why would it not count?
 
mtuomi said:
I'm sorry, I don't follow you. Where does it say it has to be in one day?
If I fly X->Y 250nm, stay overnight, then go to Z 50nm, why would it not count?
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That's my thinking. I've never seen a same day requirement. We tend to read things into the regs when it isn't spelled out.
 
mtuomi said:
Where do you find this requirement?
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There isn't one. Mine, which I described earlier, covered 4 days, flew 3 of them. Glad @TRocket wasn't my DPE! :D (BTW, I do agree with him about checking with these DPE you plan to use if you think you are far out on a limb, although I think the limbs are much more sturdy than he. He apparently thinks the FAA would prefer giving an incentive to press on into bad weather or fly when fatigued rather than divert and stay overnight.)

The question comes up enough, this is a copy and paste from a file of mine. Some official and other references, but still just IMO.

Logging a cross country - Doing Other Things

Rule of thumb: unless you are being ridiculous, what you consider to be a cross country flight is pretty much up to you.

The old, orphaned, disowned Part 61 FAQ answered this type of question with "The 'original point of departure' for the purpose of a cross country does not change with a new day or delay."

More recently, in 2009, in answering a number of question about cross country logging (mostly regarding safety pilot scenarios), the FAA Chief Counsel made the following observation in response to a question about repositioning fights:

There is nothing in § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Section 61.1(b)(3)(ii) requires that the flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure.​
2009 Glenn Interpretation

So, for example, my commercial solo cross country involved a multi-day trip.

What is "ridiculous"? I'm not aware of anything by way of example from the FAA. It's just a sense that, as in other areas, the FAA may look at a scenario and say, "that's a sham" (nice way of saying "that's BS"). So I guess you'll know it when you see it.

To me, it's about goal and intent and where and when that changes. The goal and intent of a cross country flight (plain English, not Regulese) is to go to a destination and, if a round robin, return. Activities involved in doing that are part and parcel of of that process. A simulated go around, a missed instrument approach, diversions, having lunch, an overnight stay to avoid fatigue, a trip to see any event and then fly back home, all sorts of things are very, very normal in a real cross country flight. I have much more of a protein with a student pilot doing 10 touch and goes just to build an extra half hour of cross country time.
 
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I don't understand the solo requirement. I have just flown from Reno to Detroit with my wife, but I can't count it as a long solo XC for CPL since she was in the right seat as a passenger. It would have been no different solo from a skills and navigation perspective.
 
DesertNomad said:
I don't understand the solo requirement. I have just flown from Reno to Detroit with my wife, but I can't count it as a long solo XC for CPL since she was in the right seat as a passenger. It would have been no different solo from a skills and navigation perspective.
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Same..I took a long flight from FL to NC and back and I couldn't count it either. Also been to Savannah a number of times, but couldn't count any of those either..
 
DesertNomad said:
I don't understand the solo requirement. I have just flown from Reno to Detroit with my wife, but I can't count it as a long solo XC for CPL since she was in the right seat as a passenger. It would have been no different solo from a skills and navigation perspective.
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My guess is the FAA can't tell if you're getting any support from your passenger or not, so they simply say "no passengers".
 
300 nm, one stop? The new regs make it easier. I have many trips that long, solo, with no stops, and a few longer, solo, with one stop. Didn't the requirement used to be more than 2 airports? If that's all it is, I have it in the bag, WV to S. FL and back to get my tanks fixed, and a fuel stop was required.

I may need to start studying regs and learning maneuvers . . .
 
There is not now, or has there been in my recollection, a limit on the number of stops or length of legs. All you have to do is fly 300 miles, land at least three times, and one point must be at least 250 miles from the original starting point.
 
Also, there's no restriction on same-day for this as I have read. I understand it where some people have flown 100 miles, stayed overnight and flown the other 200, including back to the origin the next day.
 
Caramon13 said:
Also, there's no restriction on same-day for this as I have read. I understand it where some people have flown 100 miles, stayed overnight and flown the other 200, including back to the origin the next day.
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Correct
 
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