A Proficiency Outing - 2 Approaches & an Overhead Break (Full ATC)

wayneda40

wayneda40

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Today Levi and I enjoy a little proficiency work… a low approach at Vandenberg Space Force Base, a missed at San Luis Obispo, and an overhead break back at Santa Barbara. Welcome aboard! Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
 
Can you briefly explain the purpose of an overhead break? What’s the reason to do it?
 
wayneda40 said:
Today Levi and I enjoy a little proficiency work… a low approach at Vandenberg Space Force Base, a missed at San Luis Obispo, and an overhead break back at Santa Barbara. Welcome aboard! Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
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If an airport has Radar Approaches it will be in the A/FD. Also in the Procedures Tab in Foreflight. And on the Briefing Strip of all the Approach Charts for that airport.
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MarcusSD said:
Can you briefly explain the purpose of an overhead break? What’s the reason to do it?
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Marcus, a pilot friend and old Navy pilot told me about the overhead break. Not sure the motivation and purpose in the military arena, but it works perfectly when approaching an airport, such as KSBA, from over a mountain pass (or over some airspace shelf)... i.e. you can arrive at the airfield "hot and high" and still make it down quite nicely. This simple graphic shows how:

Overhead Break plus 360.png

Note that if you're REALLY hot/high you can insert (request, if towered) an extra 360 in the middle. As Levi mentions in the video, this also provides for a good emergency power-off spiral into an airport.
Wayne
 
luvflyin said:
If an airport has Radar Approaches it will be in the A/FD. Also in the Procedures Tab in Foreflight. And on the Briefing Strip of all the Approach Charts for that airport.
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Luvflyin, thanks, solid info. I'm still wondering what might be missing at Vandenberg (equipment, certification??) that doesn't allow them to provide an ASR/PAR. Any insight?
Again, thanks!
Wayne
 
MarcusSD said:
Can you briefly explain the purpose of an overhead break? What’s the reason to do it?
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It's a way to to come screaming into the pattern fast and then bleed off airspeed right over the airport. When they 'break' it loads up the wing and can slow down pretty quick. Mainly a Military Fighter thang. Also a way for flights to separate. They come into together and then peel off one at a time to get spaced on down wind. It's also a cool Topgunny type of thing to do. Snarkiness aside, it has it's place in other situations also.
 
wayneda40 said:
Luvflyin, thanks, solid info. I'm still wondering what might be missing at Vandenberg (equipment, certification??) that doesn't allow them to provide an ASR/PAR. Any insight?
Again, thanks!
Wayne
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Air Force has pretty much done away with it, you don't see many. Exactly why, I dunno, but someone will. Navy and Marine Corps still has a lot of them.
 
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wayneda40 said:
LOL, and also love it!
Thanks all.
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Hey. Howsa bout goin to Los Alamitos SLI and shootin some GCA's and video it. They have ASR and PAR Approaches. Last I heard they will give them to you to Low Approach. The don't just allow it, they encourage it. They like to play with airplanes for practice.
 
luvflyin said:
Hey. Howsa bout goin to Los Alamitos SLI and shootin some GCA's and video it. They have ASR and PAR Approaches. Last I heard they will give them to you to Low Approach. The don't just allow it, they encourage it. They like to play with airplanes for practice.
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Yes!! PM me (or email waynemcc at wamware dot com) and we'll make it happen. Cool!
Wayne
 
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MarcusSD said:
Can you briefly explain the purpose of an overhead break? What’s the reason to do it?
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I think the simplest way to explain it is a way to rapidly dissipate energy and/or to separate a formation flight when turning from an upwind pattern entry to the downwind leg. The downwind leg might end up being a continuing turn back through base to final or it could be the full length of the runway or longer, depending on the formation and local procedures. The upwind could be an instrument approach flown in formation or just heading toward the runway or boat. Regardless of the details, you basically go from a "can't possibly land" energy state (above gear speed and/or high altitude) to a stabilized VFR pattern while you turn through crosswind.

Here's some Navy lore on the subject: https://fightersweep.com/837/the-ultimate-carrier-break/

Edit to add: Even B-52's arrive in formation and execute an overhead break.
 
wayneda40 said:
Yes!! PM me (or email waynemcc at wamware dot com) and we'll make it happen. Cool!
Wayne
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I didn't mean with me, I'm a 1000 miles away. However I'm planning on being in Santa Barbara early October. I'll get a PM to you later with details. Sounds like fun.
 
Problem with overhead break is the yahoo RV pilots who pull that crap at uncontrolled fields. Descending onto downwind...great idea.
 
EdFred said:
Problem with overhead break is the yahoo RV pilots who pull that crap at uncontrolled fields. Descending onto downwind...great idea.
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Ed, excellent point... descending (and quickly) onto the downwind could indeed be a problem at uncontrolled fields.
 
EdFred said:
Problem with overhead break is the yahoo RV pilots who pull that crap at uncontrolled fields. Descending onto downwind...great idea.
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Forgive my GA ignorance. A break in the Navy was a level 1000 AGL foot (800 for the carrier break) turn so you're at the same altitude as the others in the pattern. Does GA do the break different?
 
MarcusSD said:
Can you briefly explain the purpose of an overhead break? What’s the reason to do it?
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FWIW if you look in AC90-66B CHG 1, it defines an overhead approach as:

9.9.3 An overhead approach is normally performed by aerobatic or high-performance aircraft and involves a quick 180-degree turn and descent at the approach end of the runway before turning to land (described in the AIM, paragraph 5-4-27, Overhead Approach Maneuvers).
 
Pugs said:
Forgive my GA ignorance. A break in the Navy was a level 1000 AGL foot (800 for the carrier break) turn so you're at the same altitude as the others in the pattern. Does GA do the break different?
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Wayne's graphic showed starting the maneuver at 1500 AGL.
 
No standard other than the generic description in the AIM. That’s the problem at non towered fields where nothing is posted and the aircraft doing the maneuver generally don’t do it right anyway.

Everywhere I’ve worked the initial was at 5 miles altitude as necessary (above MVA). Break altitude was at 1,500 ft AGl and pattern altitude was 1,000 AGL. 500 ft between break and pattern altitudes (AIM). Carrier break was 800 ft and 600 ft pattern.
 
Pretty much like this.

AA4CF912-6FE4-48D9-A581-F55BC508D8FB.jpeg A0A4A6BA-3A94-4119-9BF0-FA4D29D2B548.jpeg 48523A81-D607-4895-8F98-FA37AA43538B.jpeg
 
Pugs said:
Forgive my GA ignorance. A break in the Navy was a level 1000 AGL foot (800 for the carrier break) turn so you're at the same altitude as the others in the pattern. Does GA do the break different?
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This is how we did it in the Air Force too. 1000' level break until the perch.
 
I was taught to use the overhead pattern by a controller at SDM tower. When you're coming in from the East, you're over the very near, infamous Otay Mountains.

It's useful to ask for the overhead to 26R instead of the otherwise-necessary rapid altitude loss that's required.

I've done it several times, and it's reasonably simple, and seems to be the right tool for the job.
 
Wayne, your diagram has the aircraft crossing the numbers 3 times. Never seen an overhead break performed by any aircraft which conforms to that pattern. Initial leads to the overhead break, then they land, crossing the numbers twice, not three times.
 
Man, NO ONE understands? Pilot moral. THAT is why you thit hot the break.

That’s why we dropped bombs in S-3s too...

Tools

And 800’ (not 799, not 801... but 800 being the number) was at the boat. EVERYWHERE else it was AS LOW as you thought you could get away with. Period.
 
coma24 said:
Wayne, your diagram has the aircraft crossing the numbers 3 times. Never seen an overhead break performed by any aircraft which conforms to that pattern. Initial leads to the overhead break, then they land, crossing the numbers twice, not three times.
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Keith, thanks for pointing this out and you are of course correct. The 360 inserted into the middle on my chart is (from my very limited knowledge) purely my invention. I've requested the extra 360 a couple times at KSBA and had it approved (works nicely coming over the Santa Ynez Mountains)... only for my curiosity and practice. As an aside, my PPL checkride 7 years ago had an engine out at <3 miles from an airport at >3500' AGL... and I did pretty much as in the ad hoc chart of mine, with two 360s in the middle.
Wayne
 
luvflyin said:
Air Force has pretty much done away with it, you don't see many. Exactly why, I dunno, but someone will. Navy and Marine Corps still has a lot of them.
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Air Force did away with them because we have ILSs everywhere. Navy has TACANs and PARs.

But, we still learned them in the AF during flight school and we were required* to fly a radar approach on our annual checkrides.

McGuire AFB, NJ (I guess it's now Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst) has a PAR that you can fly.

*we were required to fly a radar approach, if available. But, as you pointed out, hardly any AF bases had them, or one even close. In the event that you couldn't actually fly one, the Evaluator pilot was supposed to verbally evaluate your radar approach knowledge during the checkride. Same with a circling approach if you couldn't get one due to traffic, weather, etc.
 
Do you to buzz the tower when breaking?
 
Uh... why do you ask? That WASNT me...

Ok fine, ya. But it isn’t like you have a choice. I mean, what if your “friends” see that you’re too scared to buzz the tower? THEN what?

Tools
 
I see someone who can do a break approach as a person who exits the airplane after landing with two stewardesses on each arm, wearing a bomber leather jacket and dark sunglasses .
 
The AIM/FAR equivalent is the “overhead”, all well delineated.

I actually did this once in a Saab 340B into Jacksonville FL during a part 121 flight. I was fresh out of the Navy, flying with a Capt named Will Rogers, no kidding. Hilarious. We had ONE passenger, we opened the door, called him up to talk to us, asked if he was ok with this, our flight attendant was, so we asked tower if it was available and they were good.

The good old days...
 
The REAL reason for the break is that it’s a decent way to ingress a bunch of planes FAST and get them all on deck with minimal separation, minimal time in dangerous territory going slow. At the boat it just speeds things up. Which is important because the direction you need to go to recover, may not be the direction you generally need to go... So the less time off course doing recoveries, the better.

In a perfect world, not really necessary. It really simply minimizes the accordion effect you see in nuisance traffic jams.

It does require EXTREME proficiency and EVERYONE being up to the task, which we generally have in the military. We practice this, A LOT. When guys goof up, and we all do from time to time, it’s DANGEROUS. That’s why it’s being phased out. Even at the boat it seems straight ins are being favored more and more.

That’s all.

Oh, and it’s FUN!
 
Tools said:
The AIM/FAR equivalent is the “overhead”, all well delineated.

I actually did this once in a Saab 340B into Jacksonville FL during a part 121 flight. I was fresh out of the Navy, flying with a Capt named Will Rogers, no kidding. Hilarious. We had ONE passenger, we opened the door, called him up to talk to us, asked if he was ok with this, our flight attendant was, so we asked tower if it was available and they were good.

The good old days...
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I was on a VR-61 airlift to Tailhook 91 from NUW in a C-9. He takes it into the break at Las Vegas Intl...... no kidding. Different times.
 
Pugs said:
I was on a VR-61 airlift to Tailhook 91 from NUW in a C-9. He takes it into the break at Las Vegas Intl...... no kidding. Different times.
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Coming back from OIF in May 2001, we had a 5-ship form of E-3s fly the break at KTIK. IIRC, we ended up with 30” second spacing, IIRC.
 
Not technically an overhead but I’ve seen a quite a few H-53s do them. The pop from the blades is distinctive.

 
EdFred said:
Problem with overhead break is the yahoo RV pilots who pull that crap at uncontrolled fields. Descending onto downwind...great idea.
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If they do that, they're doing it wrong. Initial should be AT pattern altitude (800 - 1000' AGL for slower aircraft and 1500' for faster aircraft) through the break to the downwind and all the way to the perch for the base turn.
 
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