A&P School Frustration

ajstoner21

ajstoner21

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
1,344
Location
Fort Worth, TX
Display Name
Display name:
Andrew
So, As some may know, I am in a night A&P School.

I have a class called "Aviation Science" which is more or less a math class.

I am an aerospace engineer during the day. Spending WEEKS learning fractions, decimals, percentages and ratios makes me want to scream. We learned this stuff back in like 5th or 6th grade. :mad2:

It frustrates me that I don't have the option to test out of certain classes when going the school route.

I really hope these classes get more entertaining for me...
 
If you are in TCC's A&P program, my daughters are there (not in that program) and have tested out:

http://www.tccd.edu/Student_Services/Testing/Credit_by_Exam.html

EDIT: I see that your program isn't included in the list of subjects you can test out of. That sucks. They should give you the option of taking the instructor's final exam from last year's class--you pass, you get credit.
 
Yeah - it is my understanding that because it is an FAA Part 147 School, I have to do what they say. I was told I couldn't test out because of the FAA. Perhaps I should go straight to the FSDO DME and ask them...
 
I understand the purpose of having x number of contact hours.... It wouldn't hurt to have you spend those hours doing other things instead of remedial math.

But I'm guessing that they are running off an approved syllabus, and you live and die by the numbers according to that syllabus. Just like a 135 or 121 outfit has it's own set of FAR's they live by in the form of their ops spec.
 
ajstoner21 said:
So, As some may know, I am in a night A&P School.

I have a class called "Aviation Science" which is more or less a math class.

I am an aerospace engineer during the day. Spending WEEKS learning fractions, decimals, percentages and ratios makes me want to scream. We learned this stuff back in like 5th or 6th grade. :mad2:

It frustrates me that I don't have the option to test out of certain classes when going the school route.

I really hope these classes get more entertaining for me...
Click to expand...

If you are an Aero space engineer, why not contact FSDO with your degree in hand and challenge the requirements to take the A&P test (all three parts)

If you get the slip your in.
 
ajstoner21 said:
So, As some may know, I am in a night A&P School.

I have a class called "Aviation Science" which is more or less a math class.

I am an aerospace engineer during the day. Spending WEEKS learning fractions, decimals, percentages and ratios makes me want to scream. We learned this stuff back in like 5th or 6th grade. :mad2:

It frustrates me that I don't have the option to test out of certain classes when going the school route.

I really hope these classes get more entertaining for me...
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat at UVU... Based on my high-school grades and SAT/ACT scores, when I went to College in the '80s, I was not required to take math or english courses. My transcript even says "math requirement waived" and "english requirement waived".

But... since they never gave me actual credits in the transcript, UVU requires me to take the English and Math elements for my BS in Aviation Science. So I'm doing Algebra and Basic writing... again.

And, no, I can't test out... I've got the maximum number of "test out" credits already for my aviation certificates. Sigh. Oh well.
 
Tom-D said:
If you are an Aero space engineer, why not contact FSDO with your degree in hand and challenge the requirements to take the A&P test (all three parts)

If you get the slip your in.
Click to expand...

Well, I really don't know the hands on side of things. I know a little about rotor dynamics, aerodynamics, fatigue, stability, and stuff like that, but not so much about the assembly/hands on kind of work.
 
ajstoner21 said:
So, As some may know, I am in a night A&P School.

I have a class called "Aviation Science" which is more or less a math class.

I am an aerospace engineer during the day. Spending WEEKS learning fractions, decimals, percentages and ratios makes me want to scream. We learned this stuff back in like 5th or 6th grade. :mad2:

It frustrates me that I don't have the option to test out of certain classes when going the school route.

I really hope these classes get more entertaining for me...
Click to expand...

Interesting...when I took General (at a Part 147), the Math was a total of 2 days and was nothing but simple arithmetic. The Physics wasn't much more. Because these courses (and a few others) were on my college transcript, I was given credit for the hours & the class (meaning I didn't have to show up & nor take the exams) but still had to pay the tuition (why am I not surprised?)

Check with the school or the local FAA office (the DME guru).
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
If you are an Aero space engineer, why not contact FSDO with your degree in hand and challenge the requirements to take the A&P test (all three parts)

If you get the slip your in.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately current regulations nor guidance allows to "challenge the requirements". Either go the OJT route (30 months experience) or go the approved school route.
 
murphey said:
Interesting...when I took General (at a Part 147), the Math was a total of 2 days and was nothing but simple arithmetic. The Physics wasn't much more. Because these courses (and a few others) were on my college transcript, I was given credit for the hours & the class (meaning I didn't have to show up & nor take the exams) but still had to pay the tuition (why am I not surprised?)

Check with the school or the local FAA office (the DME guru).
Click to expand...

Depends upon how the course was written. In your case they made allowances for previous training if documented. Some other approved courses may not have the same provisions.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Yeah - it is my understanding that because it is an FAA Part 147 School, I have to do what they say. I was told I couldn't test out because of the FAA. Perhaps I should go straight to the FSDO DME and ask them...
Click to expand...

Best advice I can give is just be patient. While you are in a lull right now it will improve later.

You could go to the CHDO and ask them, but they will probably tell you the course curriculum is written that way and they cannot make changes, only the certificate holder(Part 147) can make the changes, then submit for approval/acceptance.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Depends upon how the course was written. In your case they made allowances for previous training if documented. Some other approved courses may not have the same provisions.
Click to expand...

So if I understand correctly, there are different rules within the Part 147? The FAA can issue /bless this much diversity within 147?
 
murphey said:
So if I understand correctly, there are different rules within the Part 147? The FAA can issue /bless this much diversity within 147?
Click to expand...

Not different rules, just how the curriculum is written and approved. It may not be less than the CFR's, but may be more restrictive. When reading 147.31 note the word "may" is used several times which gives the school leeway in how they may apply the regulation to their requirements.

14 CFR 147.31

Attendance and enrollment, tests, and credit for prior instruction or experience.


(a) A certificated aviation maintenance technician school may not require any student to attend classes of instruction more than 8 hours in any day or more than 6 days or 40 hours in any 7-day period.
(b) Each school shall give an appropriate test to each student who completes a unit of instruction as shown in that school's approved curriculum.
(c) A school may not graduate a student unless he has completed all of the appropriate curriculum requirements. However, the school may credit a student with instruction or previous experience as follows:
(1) A school may credit a student with instruction satisfactorily completed at --
(i) An accredited university, college, junior college;
(ii) An accredited vocational, technical, trade or high school;
(iii) A military technical school;
(iv) A certificated aviation maintenance technician school.
(2) A school may determine the amount of credit to be allowed --
(i) By an entrance test equal to one given to the students who complete a comparable required curriculum subject at the crediting school;
(ii) By an evaluation of an authenticated transcript from the student's former school; or
(iii) In the case of an applicant from a military school, only on the basis of an entrance test.
(3) A school may credit a student with previous aviation maintenance experience comparable to required curriculum subjects. It must determine the amount of credit to be allowed by documents verifying that experience, and by giving the student a test equal to the one given to students who complete the comparable required curriculum subject at the school.
(4) A school may credit a student seeking an additional rating with previous satisfactory completion of the general portion of an AMTS curriculum.
(d) A school may not have more students enrolled than the number stated in its application for a certificate, unless it amends its application and has it approved.
(e) A school shall use an approved system for determining final course grades and for recording student attendance. The system must show hours of absence allowed and show how the missed material will be made available to the student.

Also see http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=834A222312F78103862577A70067740E for details on certification of a Part 147 school.
 
Last edited:
TMetzinger said:
But... since they never gave me actual credits in the transcript, UVU requires me to take the English and Math elements for my BS in Aviation Science. So I'm doing Algebra and Basic writing... again.

And, no, I can't test out... I've got the maximum number of "test out" credits already for my aviation certificates. Sigh. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Who benefits? Schools are supposed to teach and believe in critical thinking, right? M.O.N.E.Y.

Most of these "institutions of higher learning" just want their cash, they don't care if you know the subject material already, or not. And they certainly don't want an intelligent student pointing out their greed.
 
In my opinion, A&P training is empirically based training while college engineering is analytically based training.

Ref my OED (Oxford English Dictionary):
Empirical - 4. Pertaining to, or derived from, experience . . .
And if you think about it, that's what you are doing when you overhaul so many carburetor types, generators, practice dope and fabric repairs, bending tubing, sheet metal, welding etc. It's about building hands on experience.

Engineering classes, on the other hand seem to be analytical training. The orientation, more about learning scientific theories, math and advanced models and principles most people couldn't or wouldn't even know about, to teach themselves, even if they were that motivated.

Hey, who would wake up one day and say, Oh, I need to figure out what calculus and differential equations are this week. Well, Newton and I think Lebinitz actually did that when they invented calculus, but they were NOT pilots. (From memory, Newton figured out differentiation and Lebinitz integrals.)

On his death-bed, legend has it Newton said his greatest achievement was to remain a virgin, so you know he wasn't a pilot (un-verified claim).

In any case, I believe colleges have no idea what a student's final application will be for any broad field, but if student can master the advanced models and theories, an employer can have high confidence they can develop the lesser skills they need to be functional as an engineer.
 
kontiki said:
In my opinion, A&P training is empirically based training while college engineering is analytically based training.

Ref my OED (Oxford English Dictionary):
Empirical - 4. Pertaining to, or derived from, experience . . .
And if you think about it, that's what you are doing when you overhaul so many carburetor types, generators, practice dope and fabric repairs, bending tubing, sheet metal, welding etc. It's about building hands on experience.

Click to expand...

Never worked on a helicopter have you?
 
Never have, what's different about helicopters?
 
The reality is that people that are really smart invaluable everywhere (regardless of the educational opportunities they had).

I think I'd enjoy learning more about helicopters. I thought about the local Sheriff's operation. I'm kinda old though.

Actually I was in a reserve helicopter/A4 squadron as a reservist many years ago when I got out of active duity. I remembered after I posted last.

Sadly, coming from a front line squadron, I was really more valuable doing the same old stuff for the A4 guys. I never got near the Hueys.
 
Welcome to the FAA!

I got lucky and did my general and airframe in HS so the approved curriculum included a very slightly tweeked math class for the half of the day we were in academic classes.

The adult students had the same thing you do.

Just remember that the class is written for the lowest denominator and be happy that isn't you. Soon enough it will pick up and get fun as more and more hands on is put on your plate.
 
Have you gone to you instructor(s) and explained your prediciment? Maybe you could offer your expertise in the Math and Physics as an "assistant"; helping those in the class who are less numerically inclined...


Just a suggestion,

Chris
 
Requiring a math class for the A&P is like requiring a welding class to complete a drivers ed course. The car is welded together but your never going to be required to know how. the math portion of an aircraft is already been completed, you as an A&P will never be required to compute a math problem to replace parts.

Bend allowance ?? that's more practice, than math.

The engineering has already been done in the design phase.
 
Not so. I recall a few times:

- no one had a protractor, we were rigging turbo prop linkage after R&R. Wound up folding a circle traced out around a coffee cup to get a wedge we knew had an angle smack dam in the midrange. It rigged and made power no problem

- I remember pilot drilllling a doubler for L1011 MLG retract cylinder mounting lug, close enough to allow for reaming after seveal shifts couldn't. Think 5/8 ' hi-locks, interferance fit, dip them in liquid nitrogen before inserting them in the holes. I had gone back to school and was working through geometry. I used a drafting compas to find the centers and worked from there.

- working out parrallel resistances to confirm continuity or not in a prop deicer boot.

A lot of it was right tighty and lefty loosie but some times you really have to think and run numbers.
 
Tom-D said:
Requiring a math class for the A&P is like requiring a welding class to complete a drivers ed course. The car is welded together but your never going to be required to know how. the math portion of an aircraft is already been completed, you as an A&P will never be required to compute a math problem to replace parts.

Bend allowance ?? that's more practice, than math.

The engineering has already been done in the design phase.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, the math course is absolutely critical. Afterall, being able to write up the invoice for billing is the most important aspect of being an A&P!
 
So the requirements for A&P are either 30 months of OJT or the equivalent of some sort of college degree?

I am a competent auto/boat/motorcycle mechanic. I can weld, replace heads on a motor, read a spark plug, and do some decent work with fiberglass. I fabricated a custom suspension system for a jeep. I fabricate and calculate shielding for radioactive material as part of my day job. I'm good with hydraulics as well. All skills that can translate into an A&P. But I went to business school... so I essentially have no credit towards an a&p??

For some reason I figured it would be like a pilot certificate... pass the written, log necessary instruction and pass an oral and hands-on "checkride" with an examiner.
 
Last edited:
dell30rb said:
For some reason I figured it would be like a pilot certificate... pass the written, log necessary instruction and pass an oral and hands-on "checkride" with an examiner.
Click to expand...

It is, 30 Months is the equivelent of the required hours for part 61 training or you can go to a school (just like a part 141 pilot school)

Sounds like you'd make a fine A&P but there's a lot to it beyond being a good wrench
 
Skylane81E said:
It is, 30 Months is the equivelent of the required hours for part 61 training or you can go to a school (just like a part 141 pilot school)

Sounds like you'd make a fine A&P but there's a lot to it beyond being a good wrench
Click to expand...

Right on.. I know the basics of airplanes and systems but I understand there is much to learn. Sounds like if I were to go for the rating, a school would be my best option as I may be able to test out of some things.

30 months just seems like an awful lot. Unless I quit my job it would take me years to log that many hours. I don't guess a preflight inspection counts ha
 
Tom-D said:
Requiring a math class for the A&P is like requiring a welding class to complete a drivers ed course. The car is welded together but your never going to be required to know how. the math portion of an aircraft is already been completed, you as an A&P will never be required to compute a math problem to replace parts.
Click to expand...

When I was working on helicopters there was lots of instances where having math skills was essential.

Replacing parts on a helicopter (elastomeric dampers, pinions, blades (MR and TR) ) will require a good working knowledge of math.
 
murphey said:
On the contrary, the math course is absolutely critical. Afterall, being able to write up the invoice for billing is the most important aspect of being an A&P!
Click to expand...

What invoice? What billing? deal in cash, Uncle can't trace his own money, but they can billing and invoices.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
When I was working on helicopters there was lots of instances where having math skills was essential.

Replacing parts on a helicopter (elastomeric dampers, pinions, blades (MR and TR) ) will require a good working knowledge of math.
Click to expand...

Above what the high school teaches?

Reading a mike and adding or subtracting fractions and decimals is about as far as it needs to go.

No High school, Yeah I can see the need, but there should be a method of challenging the test. Any aero mechanical engineer should be able to take the test and get the rude awakening of flunking it at least once.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Yeah - it is my understanding that because it is an FAA Part 147 School, I have to do what they say. I was told I couldn't test out because of the FAA. Perhaps I should go straight to the FSDO DME and ask them...
Click to expand...

That would be the correct next move. Very likely you will have your wish granted with proof of equivalent education. They just need to make sure you know. They can also waive you the remedial math and science requirements, or "sign you off" on them. A lot depends on attitudes.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Perhaps I should go straight to the FSDO DME and ask them...
Click to expand...


Henning said:
That would be the correct next move. Very likely you will have your wish granted with proof of equivalent education. They just need to make sure you know. They can also waive you the remedial math and science requirements, or "sign you off" on them. A lot depends on attitudes.
Click to expand...

Don't know where you got your info, but it's wrong.

The FSDO doesn't have a "DME" on staff, they have ASI's (Aviation Safety Inspector). A DME is a civilian designee, not an FAA employee.

If the curriculum of the school does not allow for equivalent education, then it can't be done. If it does, then the school gives the credit, not the FAA. An Inspector cannot "sign you off" and allow you to bypass subjects at a Part 147 school.

An Inspector can give authorization to take any of the 3 written exams (General, Airframe, Powerplant) if the applicant can provide proof of previous experience.
 
Last edited:
murphey said:
On the contrary, the math course is absolutely critical. Afterall, being able to write up the invoice for billing is the most important aspect of being an A&P!
Click to expand...

One of ours has an accountant for that, I think. He's always 30 days if not 60 behind. (And no, I'm not complaining!) ;)

His estimates are dead-nuts on, but I get the distinct impression he doesn't cook his own books. After our bladder tank replacement I kept wondering when the bill would come. It came, no surprises, and it was paid toot-sweet.

The other guy is 30 days from invoice and it usually shows up within a week.

I couldn't run a business like that first shop, 30-60 days behind on things. I understand tons of businesses run "Net 90" terms, but at least the invoice would be out, same month. He's just making everyone an inadvertent loan.
 
Tom-D said:
What invoice? What billing? deal in cash, Uncle can't trace his own money, but they can billing and invoices.
Click to expand...

Banks are required to notify Uncle of any deposit $10K or greater and the tax ID of the account holder. (It fights the funding of terrorism, you know.) Don't stash that cash for long into big piles under your pillow.

And in an IRS audit, which can be conducted randomly outside pf any "red flags", and some are, unexplained deposits unaccounted-for will be used against you.

Just sayin'... Know someone who played the cash game with his businesses. Now he gets audited every few years just for spite, I would swear.

He's been a good little taxpayer and every penny goes in QuickBooks now. He got lucky he got off with back taxes owed and no fines.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Don't know where you got your info, but it's wrong.

The FSDO doesn't have a "DME" on staff, they have ASI's (Aviation Safety Inspector). A DME is a civilian designee, not an FAA employee.

If the curriculum of the school does not allow for equivalent education, then it can't be done. If it does, then the school gives the credit, not the FAA. An Inspector cannot "sign you off" and allow you to bypass subjects at a Part 147 school.

An Inspector can give authorization to take any of the 3 written exams (General, Airframe, Powerplant) if the applicant can provide proof of previous experience.
Click to expand...

Huh, really... Things probably have changed then because I watched a guy get quizzed for about 10 minutes on his DC-10 experience (which he had gained foreign and seemed to know) and was signed off to take the A&P test. I watched it happen standing at the LGB FSDO counter back when they were between us and Tom's IIRC on Spring St. It was 20 years ago though.
 
denverpilot said:
Banks are required to notify Uncle of any deposit $10K or greater and the tax ID of the account holder.

Who would be stupid enough to put it in the bank?

(It fights the funding of terrorism, you know.) Don't stash that cash for long into big piles under your pillow.

Yep, or some thing else

And in an IRS audit, which can be conducted randomly outside pf any "red flags", and some are, unexplained deposits unaccounted-for will be used against you.

How can they audit what they can't see?

Just sayin'... Know someone who played the cash game with his businesses. Now he gets audited every few years just for spite, I would swear.

He's been a good little taxpayer and every penny goes in QuickBooks now. He got lucky he got off with back taxes owed and no fines.
Click to expand...

Big bucks guys attract attention, and they always get caught, I make enough money that is not taxable that Uncle doesn't even see the other stuff.
 
Henning said:
Huh, really... Things probably have changed then because I watched a guy get quizzed for about 10 minutes on his DC-10 experience (which he had gained foreign and seemed to know) and was signed off to take the A&P test. I watched it happen standing at the LGB FSDO counter back when they were between us and Tom's IIRC on Spring St. It was 20 years ago though.
Click to expand...

He wasn't enrolled in a Part 147 A&P school, he was using previous experience (30 months OJT).
 
dell30rb said:
So the requirements for A&P are either 30 months of OJT or the equivalent of some sort of college degree?

I am a competent auto/boat/motorcycle mechanic. I can weld, replace heads on a motor, read a spark plug, and do some decent work with fiberglass. I fabricated a custom suspension system for a jeep. I fabricate and calculate shielding for radioactive material as part of my day job. I'm good with hydraulics as well. All skills that can translate into an A&P. But I went to business school... so I essentially have no credit towards an a&p??
Click to expand...

Correct. But it sounds like you should trade in the Cessna 152 and PA 28 for an experimental amateur built aircraft...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top