With the rising cost of just about everything else, has anyone seen your mechanic’s labor rates inch higher?Curious what the going rates are in your neck of the woods. $85hr here.
A&P Rates
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Randomskylane
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Randomskylane
110 in Virginia
$100
Doc Holliday
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Yet they have zero problem paying $125-150/hour having their auto or boat serviced.
Brad Smith
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Brad Smith
Harley shops charge 100 bucks an hour to work on a motorcycle. We should be glad to pay what we have to pay an A&P to work on airplanes.
benyflyguy
En-Route
110 and going to go up. Which is fine by me. There is a guy that is much cheaper but careful what you wish for.
im not the kind of guy that simply believes that paying more must mean it’s better either.
there’s a guy that brings a 210 to our local shop every couple of annuals. So he’ll get the 300-500 dollar annual at his local field. But then comes here and bemoans a 5000 dollar annual that is usually just catching up on a bunch of stuff he left go. Funny thing he carries on but still comes every couple of years-now why does he keep coming back??
im not the kind of guy that simply believes that paying more must mean it’s better either.
there’s a guy that brings a 210 to our local shop every couple of annuals. So he’ll get the 300-500 dollar annual at his local field. But then comes here and bemoans a 5000 dollar annual that is usually just catching up on a bunch of stuff he left go. Funny thing he carries on but still comes every couple of years-now why does he keep coming back??
That’s the part I’ve never understood. People seem to have this irrational approach to airplanes and servicing them compared to other modes of transportation, recreational or not.
I don’t think it’s the hourly that bothers people as much as how many hours it takes to do simple things. Ancient equipment and lots of paperwork make simple things take much longer than they do for a boat or car.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I assume because a plane takes 20x the maintenance inputs on the regular, vs their Camry. I think they assume costco/bulk-buy discount thinking is in play.
I think many (not all) pilots are just amazing cheapskates and know every dollar by name as it flies out of their wallet at an alarming rate. The local independent beech dude here is 95/hr, the "known" shop I couldn't squeeze into is 125.
tyndall
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LawnDart
At least things are doing ok in the USofA. In Canada, I could offer an annual over the phone for $200, and there'd be ten guys undercutting me. The guy mowing your lawn is probably an unemployed mechanic, and the guy raking was a pilot.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
$70, up from $55 when he started 10 years ago. Employs 3 mechanics under him. $800 base rate for annual on a complex single. He breaks down everything he does to the 1/4 hour, and none of it is out of line. And if he does something that he doesn't feel should have taken as long as it did he'll knock hours off.
$95 for solo on field guy and $100 at the bigger FBO across town.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Running about 90 here with all shops running months long delays.
Ya'll should move down here. Every shop i talk to complains about how they can't find any help, especially the avionics shops. When I was looking to get a g5 put in, most places were 6-9 months out.
bflynn
Final Approach
I suspect that's because while they're charging $100/hr, the mechanic is getting an average of about $30. 70% is quite a house fee.
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Bob Noel
what difference does that make? Is the ~$30/hr for the avionics tech a fair wage?
what's the mechanic getting working in a shop servicing cars?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Depends on overhead.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
I took my truck in recently for the "annual" state inspection, and you are correct, it was about 15 minutes.
However, they didn't remove fenders to inspect the body connections of the interior, they didn't remove all of the wheels to inspect the bearings and hub assemblies, they didn't remove the spark plugs and do a compression test, they didn't inspect the engine mounts, the transmission mounts and axle attach points, they didn't remove the interior floor mat and seats to inspect the seat rails and seat belt attach points, they didn't inspect the individual coils, they didn't inspect the serpentine belt or idler pulley, they didn't inspect the battery, they didn't inspect the brake system other than driving into the bay, they didn't do a corrosion inspection, etc, etc, etc, and they didn't do a review of the logbooks for regulated factory service bulletins.
Doc Holliday
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Don't understand how a business works? How does the owner pay for his location (hangar)? How does he pay for his utilities? How does he pay for his liability insurance? How does he pay for the mechanics basic benefits, if any? Advertising? Tools and equipment? Supplies?
Or does the maintenance fairy supply all of that?
dmspilot
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Thanks for clearing that up. I thought car and airplane inspections were similar but that aircraft mechanics worked 60 times slower.
bflynn
Final Approach
Of course I do. Do you understand how a market works? Or in this case, a labor market?
The question was "why is there an A&P shortage". Well, because the salary to the mechanic isn't very good. We all saw $100/hr posted above and sign me up for that. But that isn't what the mechanic gets, the house gets 70% of it. In GA it's probably not even $30/hr because that is the national average, which includes the airlines.
Why is there a labor (supply) shortage? Because the offered price (wage) is lower than the suppliers (mechanics) want to sell for, so they exit the market for other industries.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Ah, so you are an expert now on mechanics wages.
I know many mechanics from different types of fields. The ones I know in the airline industry make a very nice living. That also includes those working in the large CRS's and MRO's. And I know a few of the GA types that have a nice living (way above your imagined national average) that have well established businesses.
Problem for GA mechanics are the cheap owners who cry over parts cost and labor rates. I mean, after all, it's a hobby, right? And they feel that the A&P needs to do this as his hobby as well.
The "A&P" shortage are those that won't put up with the GA BS with cheap owners wanting the $200 annuals and owners expecting them to drop everything and fix their airplane at discounted, and unrealistic rates. Also what hurts the GA A&P's are the owners that bring their pride and joy in that hasn't seen any meaningful maintenance in decades, and when the A&P points out what is really wrong with their aircraft they go to extreme butthurt and start claiming "he's trying to rip me off".
I don't blame anyone holding an A&P for not wanting to work GA. Been there, have a drawer full of t-shirts and the scars to prove it.
bflynn
Final Approach
Ah, so you are an expert now on mechanics wages.
No, I didn't say that.
I looked up the average wage and noted that the GA wage must be less because airline mechanics get paid more. Everyone can't make more than the average.
If you want more people to work for you, raise the wage. If you can't figure out how to make that work, then you shouldn't be the boss.
I'm not sure why you have grief with this. We are essentially saying the same thing.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
And raising the wage increase cost, and the customer gets even more bent out of shape. Why do you think so many GA owners seek out the $200/annual?
So should the boss raise his rates? Will his market pay for those raises?
Here's what you wrote, for refresher:
And I pointed out you aren't aware of what goes into the "house fee".
And see my reply to this above.
GA is full of mechanics wanting a fast buck and will sell their signatures, and this hurts the legit shops trying to do a good job and do it correctly. Why? Owners want cheap and quick work to keep the cost of the hobby down.
This board is full of threads echoing the same theme. Mechanics want too much, parts are too expensive, and airplanes cost too much.
Not hardly. I don't know what you are comparing that to but it's not the aviation maintenance industry. Given the number of monthly billable hours and type of shop/operation that "house fee" may barely cover the overhead in some cases.
The reason there's an A&P shortage depends on what level you look at. For example, at the GA independent level there's a shortage because the industry support side have outpriced themselves to the average independent APIA. It's hard to make ends meets when the "house fee" won't pay the bills unless you increase volume to the point of working 24/7 at a price point the local market will accept. The other half of the equation is nobody wants an outside or dirty job anymore. I still help several people a year work toward getting their A&P who tell me its the same for diesel mechanics, construction trades, etc. where money is not the main driver toward what vocation they look to.
Your data is just that, averages, which means nothing. For one, wage comparison is not linear as you propose. I know of 5 year GA A&Ps making more than 5 year airline mechanics and 5 year Part 135 rotorcraft mechanics making more than the GA mechanics. There are a number of variables involved. Unless you want to break APIA wage/costs down by region, experience, etc. you'll never get an accurate comparison.
While that may work in other industries it not a guarantee in aviation maintenance. Raise your rate to attract more employees and you'll lose business unless you have a captured market. Don't think so? Just read the replies in this thread and other on PoA as there is always someone who will sign off a 20 minute annual because you as an owner will probably not pay for that increase.
Brad Smith
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I earned my A&P in 1985 by going to a two-year college and was the rare student that wanted to work in GA. Everyone else wanted to go to the airlines. I learned early on that working in GA was scratching the bottom when it came to wages and benefits (very important). I quickly moved on to McDonnell Douglas (Boeing) and enjoyed the good life. I don’t know many GA mechanics that earn Boeing money with excellent benefits that can retire in their 50’s as comfortably as I did .
Also, the number of guys/gals wanting to be A&P mechanics has shrunk to almost nothing compared to years ago. Factor that into the equation and it’s easy to see why work on your aircraft takes so long. Talented A&P’s that are in love with GA may squeak along at $25/hr toiling on your aircraft, but the smart ones move on to bigger and better ways to make a living. I did am am very glad that I did.
BTW- I was able to earn my PPL in 1989 using only my annual vacation check from McDonnell Douglas. Try doing that as a GA mechanic!
Also, the number of guys/gals wanting to be A&P mechanics has shrunk to almost nothing compared to years ago. Factor that into the equation and it’s easy to see why work on your aircraft takes so long. Talented A&P’s that are in love with GA may squeak along at $25/hr toiling on your aircraft, but the smart ones move on to bigger and better ways to make a living. I did am am very glad that I did.
BTW- I was able to earn my PPL in 1989 using only my annual vacation check from McDonnell Douglas. Try doing that as a GA mechanic!
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you did a survey of community colleges today you would discover there is a waiting list.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
~ $90/hr at my shop in Nampa, ID...
bflynn
Final Approach
Who are they going to that from? The A&P that is 3 months backlogged?
1) if he can, yes. 2) That will depend on the market.
Would you rather pay an extra $100 for 20 hours of work knowing you’ll get it on time or pay $100 less and wait for when they get around to you? As much as pilots gripe about their airplanes, they gripe more about not having them.
Why do you assume that? Rent, insurance, HR/payroll, finance, customer service, supplies, hazmat/waste/disposal, compliance, etc, etc, etc. Are you suggesting there are secret things that business people cannot be aware of. I get there are overhead costs.
I'm not disagreeing with you. My entire premise was answering the question why aren’t there more GA mechanics. The answer is money. Therefore the answer to having more, and getting more revenue in a shop is hiring more people, which can only be done by paying a higher wage.
or you can gripe about it and watch someone else figure how to make it work. The cheap pilots who gripe about paying $200 aren’t profitable customers anyway. Most people will not notice a 5% rise in the labor rate.
Do you own an aircraft?
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Apparently you haven't been paying attention. There's been several threads here about the $200/annual.
Again, all one has to do is read the multiple threads here to see just how cheap owners are. That extra $100 could be spent towards the latest and greatest headset and no wasted on something like maintenance.
Earlier on you clearly didn't, that's why you called it "the house" like it was a gambling operation.
Ha! Now that there is downright funny!
So have you ever worked as a GA A&P? Ever run a GA Maintenance shop, or work as an independent? Or have you even owned an airplane that you pay someone to maintain?
And please don't give me the crap about how you are some sort of business whiz. GA is a tough place to make money, especially dealing with hobbyist. Why do you think so many seek out the signature sellers at annual time? Because they want their plane on time??
Is this poisoning the well or appeal to authority?
Ha. More an attempt to follow his lead in Post 34.
GMascelli
En-Route
$88 for labor rate and the annual inspection base fee went up 27% this year.