A&P-IAs

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
What are the responsibilities of the A&P-IA to their customers, and the FAA?

Simple question, what do you expect from your mechanic?
 
Tom-D said:
Simple question, what do you expect from your mechanic?
Click to expand...

I expect honesty

I expect good work

I expect fair price for his work.
 
And done according to the applicable regulations
 
Bob Noel said:
I expect honesty

I expect good work

I expect fair price for his work.
Click to expand...

Honesty is a must.

I would change "good work" to "Perfect work".

This of course would change the definition of "fair price", but I accept that.
 
Bob Noel said:
I expect honesty

I expect good work

I expect fair price for his work.
Click to expand...

I'd add to this that I want the work done in a timely manner. The definition of timely will vary depending on my needs for the plane. Sometimes I'll say "I don't have anything planned for a month, so if it takes you a little longer, don't worry about it." But I do want the work done with enough time leftover that I can do a test flight and make sure everything is up to snuff prior to me having to fly halfway across the country with the plane, and have time to repair any discrepancies.
 
I expect them to do what ever they contracted to do competently.
 
Bob Noel said:
Understood. Perfect work is definitely a goal, but no one is perfect.
Click to expand...

You don't always get what you (pay/ask) for, but you RARELY
get what you don't (pay/ask) for.
 
JOhnH said:
You don't always get what you (pay/ask) for, but you RARELY
get what you don't (pay/ask) for.
Click to expand...

well, I guess I'm pretty lucky with the two A&P's (one is an IA) that work on my airplane.
 
I could turn the question around...

What services can an A&P/IA be expected to offer? ;)

Like all independent contractors, the list of things they do vs what I want them to do, may not match. Hard to tell without a menu to choose the meal from, so to speak.

Some professional organizations tack on additional training, required services that must be offered, codes of conduct, etc... in some industries.

Take, ASE certification for automotive techs as a (admittedly weak) example. There's others.

A&Ps and A&P/IA's have no such animal that I'm aware of.

So really all one can truly expect from an A&P or A&P/IA is whatever the FAA demands and whatever else you can negotiate yourself.

Which... incidentally... Is probably why "maintenance management" services like Mike Busch's thing popped up.

Not that I agree or disagree with that.

But whatever value folks feel they're getting from those types of companies is because there was a vacuum or perceived vacuum in the market for those services they offer.

Type clubs for advice/guidance, that company that makes up the pretty tabbed maintenance logbooks with customized AD printouts for your type and serial number, etc... all things that wouldn't exist if the local shops in lots of "somewheres" were doing them consistently for all customers.

Those other entities fill in a gap, basically. A sharp A&P shop that was highly organized, could do it cheaper and better in most cases.

A list of options and prices for add-ons like prettying up logs, making a book with times of things due by law, recommended by SB, and things that are more common, etc... Goes a long way to looking less reactive and allowing a (perhaps clueless) owner to be more proactive.

Can take that further... A good shop knows vendors and can sometimes get better pricing on some things. A list of completely optional stuff and prices on a sheet good for say, 3 months...

"Hey, we noticed your interior is looking a bit ragged. You probably haven't had time to do all the research, but we can install new carpet and recover the seats for $X. There's some photos on our website of the quality of work and materials if you care to look. It also looks like you'll be shopping for tires this year. We like X brand and we do enough business with 'em we get a decent price. They'll run ya $X installed on your aircraft."

Stuff like that would be outrageously good...

But "expect" is too strong a word. "Mildly surprised and happy they offered" is a better long-term business goal.
 
If your mechanic told you not to buy a certain aircraft, would you buy anyway, because it is really cheap?
 
Tom-D said:
If your mechanic told you not to buy a certain aircraft, would you buy anyway, because it is really cheap?
Click to expand...

Depends on what I knew and how that compared to what the mechanic knew. My mechanics have discouraged me from buying aircraft that they don't want to work on. I've had them try to talk me out of doing jobs for that reason, too. I explain that I'm paying them to do it so I'm not terribly concerned with how much fun it is.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Depends on what I knew and how that compared to what the mechanic knew. My mechanics have discouraged me from buying aircraft that they don't want to work on. I've had them try to talk me out of doing jobs for that reason, too. I explain that I'm paying them to do it so I'm not terribly concerned with how much fun it is.
Click to expand...

R&R the alternator on a TSIO-360 is a shining example of a job that no one wants to do...I know there are others and better examples but so far I haven't had to pay for them.
 
Tom-D said:
If your mechanic told you not to buy a certain aircraft, would you buy anyway, because it is really cheap?
Click to expand...
Not enough information to answer the question.

The mechanic might only like low/high wing for example and the cheap plane is the other type. OTOH, it may cost more than it will ever be worth to become airworthy.
 
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Tom-D said:
What are the responsibilities of the A&P-IA to their customers, and the FAA?

Simple question, what do you expect from your mechanic?
Click to expand...

It's a real simple deal with me. I expect the mechanic to look over this bird with the precision and care that he would if his only daughter and the love of his life was going to be flying in it above almost certain death. If he can convince me of that kind of care and his absolute knowledge of the type, I will pay whatever he asks (within very broad reason) with no B.S., argument, or delay.

Flying at 200 above 15K of freezing rain and hostile terrain in a piston of any kind, I want to at least have the comfort of knowing I have the very best maintenance work out there.

Those rolling out on a perfect VFR day flying above open fields to a $100 hamburger will probably have a different perspective.
 
Clark1961 said:
Do you produce perfect work? Why do you expect it of others when you can't produce it?
Click to expand...

I always strive for perfection. When I miss, I lose money. But when my mechanic misses, I stand to lose much more.

Now, I don't really EXPECT perfection, but it is what I seek. Do you want a mechanic that strives for less? (You are not an A&P are you?)

I saw the remains of an airplane delivered in a dump truck a few years ago after a mechanic failed to properly install the safety wire when replacing the prop. The prop wasn't in the dump truck.
 
JOhnH said:
I always strive for perfection. When I miss, I lose money. But when my mechanic misses, I stand to lose much more.

Now, I don't really EXPECT perfection, but it is what I seek. Do you want a mechanic that strives for less? (You are not an A&P are you?)

I saw the remains of an airplane delivered in a dump truck a few years ago after a mechanic failed to properly install the safety wire when replacing the prop. The prop wasn't in the dump truck.
Click to expand...

The question was "what do you expect" not "what do you want an A&P IA to strive for." Attention to detail is rather important here.
 
Alexb2000 said:
It's a real simple deal with me. I expect the mechanic to look over this bird with the precision and care that he would if his only daughter and the love of his life was going to be flying in it above almost certain death. If he can convince me of that kind of care and his absolute knowledge of the type, I will pay whatever he asks (within very broad reason) with no B.S., argument, or delay.

Flying at 200 above 15K of freezing rain and hostile terrain in a piston of any kind, I want to at least have the comfort of knowing I have the very best maintenance work out there.

Those rolling out on a perfect VFR day flying above open fields to a $100 hamburger will probably have a different perspective.
Click to expand...


This is ever so true. Ive always done very through annuals and when a owner comes along that only flies on perfect VFR days wanting a "paper annual" I have to tell them them I cannot help them. Ive lost a few customers with that policy, but I dont want to deal with the aftermath of those "paper annuals"
 
denverpilot said:
I could turn the question around...

What services can an A&P/IA be expected to offer? ;)

Like all independent contractors, the list of things they do vs what I want them to do, may not match. Hard to tell without a menu to choose the meal from, so to speak.

Some professional organizations tack on additional training, required services that must be offered, codes of conduct, etc... in some industries.

Take, ASE certification for automotive techs as a (admittedly weak) example. There's others.

A&Ps and A&P/IA's have no such animal that I'm aware of.

So really all one can truly expect from an A&P or A&P/IA is whatever the FAA demands and whatever else you can negotiate yourself.

Which... incidentally... Is probably why "maintenance management" services like Mike Busch's thing popped up.

Not that I agree or disagree with that.

But whatever value folks feel they're getting from those types of companies is because there was a vacuum or perceived vacuum in the market for those services they offer.

Type clubs for advice/guidance, that company that makes up the pretty tabbed maintenance logbooks with customized AD printouts for your type and serial number, etc... all things that wouldn't exist if the local shops in lots of "somewheres" were doing them consistently for all customers.

Those other entities fill in a gap, basically. A sharp A&P shop that was highly organized, could do it cheaper and better in most cases.

A list of options and prices for add-ons like prettying up logs, making a book with times of things due by law, recommended by SB, and things that are more common, etc... Goes a long way to looking less reactive and allowing a (perhaps clueless) owner to be more proactive.

Can take that further... A good shop knows vendors and can sometimes get better pricing on some things. A list of completely optional stuff and prices on a sheet good for say, 3 months...

"Hey, we noticed your interior is looking a bit ragged. You probably haven't had time to do all the research, but we can install new carpet and recover the seats for $X. There's some photos on our website of the quality of work and materials if you care to look. It also looks like you'll be shopping for tires this year. We like X brand and we do enough business with 'em we get a decent price. They'll run ya $X installed on your aircraft."

Stuff like that would be outrageously good...

But "expect" is too strong a word. "Mildly surprised and happy they offered" is a better long-term business goal.
Click to expand...


Awright, Nate -- yer on word ration -- no more than 10 words on any one post in the next 24 hours...






;)
 
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flyer said:
This is ever so true. Ive always done very through annuals and when a owner comes along that only flies on perfect VFR days wanting a "paper annual" I have to tell them them I cannot help them. Ive lost a few customers with that policy, but I dont want to deal with the aftermath of those "paper annuals"
Click to expand...

I once had a musketeer owner that flew it twice a year, not much of a preflight just jump in it and go.

I started to think this is not the aircraft and owner to be involved with, So I refused to annual it, and it has not flown in nearly 10 years, it still sets out in the weeds with machinery all around it.

Guess who's the dirty &^%&()
 
320px-Project-triangle.svg.png



Pick any two.
 
denverpilot said:
I could turn the question around...

What services can an A&P/IA be expected to offer? ;)

Every thing it requires to keep the owner's aircraft safe and legal.


Those other entities fill in a gap, basically. A sharp A&P shop that was highly organized, could do it cheaper and better in most cases.
Click to expand...

I disagree with that statement, simply because the Freelanced A&P-IA doesn't have the overhead that the "highly organized" shop will have.

For an example one of my 172 owners hit the elevator on the post in his hangar bending the wrinkle skins pretty bad.

He called me to have a look, I went to his hangar, inspected the damage and while looking at it, I called him and we decided it needed to come off to be reskinned. 15 minutes later its on its way to be repaired by the best metalsmith I know ( Aircraft Northwest) When the metalsmith was done he calls me, I go get the elevator, and give it to the paint shop, when they were done I go get it, rebalance and reinstall.
All the time his aircraft is safety tucked away in his hangar, not out on some ramp in the weather.
My charges? 3 hours at 50 per and a tank of gas. his total cost $1200 to the metal smith, and 50 for the paint shop.

Your freelanced A&P is always cheaper and in most cases a better job, because you have one person to hold responsible, not some repairman the FBO hired yesterday making the repair, and the DOM with no skin in the game signing it off.
 
denverpilot said:
;)

I type too fast.
Click to expand...

I used "word ration" and "Singing only" sometimes with Officer Candidates.

Word ration limited the candidate to some small number of words all day. Really forced them to think before speaking!

Saying everything to the tune of Mary had a Little lamb or The Flintstones also imposed a measure of forethought....
 
A lot less than my A&P does is what I would expect. I have to force money in his hands sometimes. Seriously the guy has done me more free favors than one could ever be reasonably expected to accept. He's also my CFII so he rides shotgun in my plane on IFR flight plans over the Montana wilderness so he has an interest in it being in tip top shape too, but still.
 
flyer said:
This is ever so true. Ive always done very through annuals and when a owner comes along that only flies on perfect VFR days wanting a "paper annual" I have to tell them them I cannot help them. Ive lost a few customers with that policy, but I dont want to deal with the aftermath of those "paper annuals"
Click to expand...

I told my mechanic (who is also a pilot) that before I do anything sketchy in an airplane, I ask myself "do I want to explain what I did in an NTSB hearing?".

He says he now gives customers that line when they ask him to compromise his (or the FAA's) standards.
 
Clark1961 said:
R&R the alternator on a TSIO-360 is a shining example of a job that no one wants to do...I know there are others and better examples but so far I haven't had to pay for them.
Click to expand...

Changing a windshield on a pressurized airplane is another one that's particularly not fun.

And one thing that every avionics guy I've come across has said to me: "I don't what dip**** worked on this plane last, but he had no idea what he was doing!"
 
bartmc said:
A lot less than my A&P does is what I would expect. I have to force money in his hands sometimes. Seriously the guy has done me more free favors than one could ever be reasonably expected to accept. He's also my CFII so he rides shotgun in my plane on IFR flight plans over the Montana wilderness so he has an interest in it being in tip top shape too, but still.
Click to expand...

Back when I owned and flew certified ships I ALWAYS had the mechanic ride with me on the post repair /annual shake down flight... " you fix it, you fly it"..... I told them that going in and they would go beyond the norm to make sure they didn't die.. In all those times I only had maybe one or two that refused to except my conditions... Those are the ones I didn't want working on my planes anyway. In my life I have meet some darn fine mechanics... and I have seen some downright deadly work done on other planes too.:yesnod::sad::yikes:.
 
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N801BH said:
Back when I owned and flew certified ships I ALWAYS had the mechanic ride with me on the post repair /annual shake down flight... " you fix it, you fly it"..... I told them that going in and they would go beyond the norm to make sure they didn't die.. In all those times I only had maybe one or two that refused to except my conditions... Those are the ones I didn't want working on my planes anyway. In my life I have meet some darn fine mechanics... and I have seen some downright deadly work done on other planes too.:yesnod::sad::yikes:.
Click to expand...

I know a couple pilots that I would't ride with if they were the last plane out of hell.
 
Tom-D said:
I know a couple pilots that I would't ride with if they were the last plane out of hell.
Click to expand...

That is a valid point, and is the option of any mechanic to pass on that test flight. Altho someone like you with all your flying skills, you would be able to test fly it without the owner on board so any risk involved would be self induced. :yesnod::yesnod:.

Also it did not go unnoticed you needed a ride out of hell.. That begs the question of why you were there in the first place.:dunno::D:rofl::lol:
 
N801BH said:
That is a valid point, and is the option of any mechanic to pass on that test flight. Altho someone like you with all your flying skills, you would be able to test fly it without the owner on board so any risk involved would be self induced. :yesnod::yesnod:.

Also it did not go unnoticed you needed a ride out of hell.. That begs the question of why you were there in the first place.:dunno::D:rofl::lol:
Click to expand...

My flying abilities are very limited these days, I fly the aircraft I know, never go in the clouds, never fly any Aircraft that I would not own, or could pay cash for.

Shi- happens and I like keeping my friends.

But.. I would not be afraid to fly any aircraft that I declare airworthy.

They might not be pretty, but they are safe.
 
Skylane81E said:
I try to avoid my signature coming up in a crash investigation, even if it is pilot error...
Click to expand...

I go to great lengths to avoid my name coming up in the Obits.
 
N801BH said:
That is a valid point, and is the option of any mechanic to pass on that test flight. Altho someone like you with all your flying skills, you would be able to test fly it without the owner on board so any risk involved would be self induced. :yesnod::yesnod:.
Click to expand...

That depends. My mechanics are not allowed to fly my aircraft without me in them, period. I hold this true for all shops.
 
Tom-D said:
I disagree with that statement, simply because the Freelanced A&P-IA doesn't have the overhead that the "highly organized" shop will have.
Click to expand...

You were thinking in terms of metalwork. I was thinking in terms of paperwork.
 
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