A&P/IA shortage

Student enrollments at A&P schools is way down compared to when I was in class in the 80’s. Like many others in my generation I grew up working on cars, motorcycles and anything mechanical that needed attention. Our fathers required us to help with all tasks around the house and our skills grew. Today’s generation is more computer biased, cars are way less likely to need attention and the government regulations forbid tampering with them.
We no longer instill the desire for mechanical things in kids anymore. iPhones, ipads, computer gaming etc. is where it’s at and who wants to get their hands dirty fiddling with an old airplane? Airplanes just aren’t very exciting anymore.
Most of the mechanics will be coming from outside the USA in the future and the supply of mechanics that want to work in general aviation will continue to dwindle.
It’s a sad situation with no immediate cure and I can only point to the reasons that kept me from GA and steered me to a career withMcDonnell/Boeing - much better pay and less liability.
 
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I work as an A&P on weekends and agree that there is a shortage that is going to get worse. My day job as a Software Engineer for a fortune 500 company allows me to work from home, has excellent pay and benefits. I am the only one within 100 miles that will do anything avionics/wiring related. There is a part 145 company trying to get started in the area but can't find anyone to fill even part time positions so I will be helping them, when I have time, to get the operation rolling but they don't pay well enough for me to give up my usual weekend work.
 
A&P here as well. Im corporate side and the reason GA mechanics are becoming hard to find is because of the pay/benefits. I manage mx on a small fleet of aircraft (warrior through citations) and if i were to go to a Regional airline (TSA, Gojet, ect.) i would start out making close to 35% more per year, have better benefits. Guys i graduated with 2 years ago are making 1.5 times what any GA shop/flight department will pay. Just my 2 cents.
 
Ray Eaker said:
I work as an A&P on weekends and agree that there is a shortage that is going to get worse. My day job as a Software Engineer for a fortune 500 company allows me to work from home, has excellent pay and benefits. I am the only one within 100 miles that will do anything avionics/wiring related. There is a part 145 company trying to get started in the area but can't find anyone to fill even part time positions so I will be helping them, when I have time, to get the operation rolling but they don't pay well enough for me to give up my usual weekend work.
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What are you doing for liability insurance? I'm an engineer at a Fortune 500 company and plan to semi-retire in a couple years and get my A&P. I'm hangared at a small private airport and the A&P/AI is mostly retired and only doing work for a few of us that he has a long relationship with. When he hangs it up for good we'll have no on field maintenance and not a lot of good nearby choices so I thought I'd get my A&P. I don't really care about making money since I'll have enough retirement savings, but what worries me is liability. I can't risk what I've spent 30 years saving. I think a lot of the A&P's at small airports like mine work under the "you can't get blood from a turnip" philosophy and don't carry insurance. I can't do that.
 
Buy insurance. Just realize that the first 75hrs of your work every year serve to feed the lawyers. Welcome to the club.
 
weilke said:
Buy insurance. Just realize that the first 75hrs of your work every year serve to feed the lawyers. Welcome to the club.
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It’s probably going to take more than 75 hours to pay the insurance, at least at the rates people are willing to pay for maintenance in my area. But that is what I did for a number of years. Between the insurance rates, hangar rent, heat and electricity costs, etc. I found that I was essentially working for free and lost all my free time when I was doing it part time.

As a result, I decided to hang it up. I only do my own and one good friend’s maintenance now, and that takes up enough of my spare time.
 
Ray Eaker said:
I work as an A&P on weekends and agree that there is a shortage that is going to get worse. My day job as a Software Engineer for a fortune 500 company allows me to work from home, has excellent pay and benefits. I am the only one within 100 miles that will do anything avionics/wiring related.
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Avionics and electrical work are definitely a niche market. After my insurance carrier put restrictions on engine work I moved toward chasing sparks. My day job was also aviation based but on helicopters. As the GA side business market started to change early 2000s I preferred owner-assisted work and stayed with that till I retired from the day job and dropped all insurances. But I still turn wrenches for a select group when needed. Now I mainly assist consultants/attorneys which keeps my beer fund fully financed.
 
Punkinhead said:
I think a lot of the A&P's at small airports like mine work under the "you can't get blood from a turnip" philosophy and don't carry insurance. I can't do that.
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In some cases that's actually correct. In most situations they only chase the money. But I preferred to have insurance too. Not to discourage you, but when I dropped my policy 5 years ago my liability cost was north of $11,000. For comparison I also had a non-aviation liability policy for other ventures that cost around $2000 for the same $1M coverage. Now if you plan to have a fixed shop, etc. then you can probably get a better rate. I was a freelance mechanic and at the time only 2 underwriters would insure freelancers but required I buy a complete hangar keepers policy which included fuel sales and aircraft storage. So 2/3 of the coverage I paid for I could never make a claim on. Also if you plan to set up shop on an airport you need to check on their rules also. As has been mentioned in other posts, some airport commissions and managers can be complete pr**ks. But I enjoyed every minute of working on aircraft regardless of the BS.
 
If I was forced to buy liability insurance (for MX) at the rates they are, I'd stop wrenching and flying. A lot of little shops would disappear overnight, a few of those customers would still probably keep flying but I bet a just as many would give up too.
 
Bell206 said:
Now if you plan to have a fixed shop, etc. then you can probably get a better rate. I was a freelance mechanic and at the time only 2 underwriters would insure freelancers but required I buy a complete hangar keepers policy which included fuel sales and aircraft storage. So 2/3 of the coverage I paid for I could never make a claim on. Also if you plan to set up shop on an airport you need to check on their rules also. As has been mentioned in other posts, some airport commissions and managers can be complete pr**ks. But I enjoyed every minute of working on aircraft regardless of the BS.
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Airport boards and admins can be a pain. Otoh some airports are also willing to support a shop knowing that the presence of a shop increases the taxable base of aircraft based at the field. While they can't say 'hey, we'll pay your insurance if you open a shop', they can pay you a $11,000 fee for your contracted services as 'assistant associate deputy airport manager'. The problem arises when the city commission changes and appoints some social justice warriors to the airport board and suddenly you go from a supportive board to 'why is the city paying to maintain this millionaires playground?'.
 
weilke said:
I dont think there is a tight relationship between the shop-rate charged to the customer and whether A&P is a good career choice. I do think that many A&Ps undervalue their work compared with what you pay for other skilled trades.

With all the doom and gloom, I do have to say that the few people I know who made actual money in GA are mechanics who opened their own shops. Some did so with the fallback like national guard employment, but they became successful with a shop nevertheless. You wont make much money changing a couple of air-filters on some raggedy cessnas, if you can develop a specialty like restoration or helicopters, there is some money to be made. Of course, to get into the higher end stuff, you need to work in that area and gather some credentials. That will be a lot easier in the military or a large MRO than in your local A&P shop.
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When someone brings a j3 project and you tell them it’s going to be 70k to restore they have a stroke. And that’s charging 50/hr. I have my own shop and I’m heading to the airlines to be a pilot. Far less ********. I’ve been sued and f’d over by “friends” as an owner of my own tube and fabric shop. The cheapest thing in aviation is the airplane owners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
tom28z said:
When someone brings a j3 project and you tell them it’s going to be 70k to restore they have a stroke. And that’s charging 50/hr. I have my own shop and I’m heading to the airlines to be a pilot. Far less ********. I’ve been sued and f’d over by “friends” as an owner of my own tube and fabric shop. The cheapest thing in aviation is the airplane owners.
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A good example to illustrate my point. Charge $90/hr. They squeal just as loud at 70k as they would at 126k.
 
Ray Eaker said:
I work as an A&P on weekends and agree that there is a shortage that is going to get worse. My day job as a Software Engineer for a fortune 500 company allows me to work from home, has excellent pay and benefits. I am the only one within 100 miles that will do anything avionics/wiring related. There is a part 145 company trying to get started in the area but can't find anyone to fill even part time positions so I will be helping them, when I have time, to get the operation rolling but they don't pay well enough for me to give up my usual weekend work.
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I'll work part time for 'em when I can. who is it?
 
Would love to become an A&P...but who has the time? Seriously, short of quitting work for two years, how could one do it?

Has it become more difficult to get the cert? Strikes me that a part of the reason could be that the requirements have gone up too. I also get the whole thing about kids wanting white collar computer jobs (they aren’t white collar, but whatever). I suspect there is an element of failing to dare thrown in there.
 
bflynn said:
Would love to become an A&P...but who has the time? Seriously, short of quitting work for two years, how could one do it?
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I may be wrong, but afaik It is still possible to prove the requisite hours with a work-log. If you have the opportunity to work as a shop-helper/apprentice , you may be able to do it concurrent with other employment. Would prob take longer than 2 years.
 
weilke said:
I may be wrong, but afaik It is still possible to prove the requisite hours with a work-log. If you have the opportunity to work as a shop-helper/apprentice , you may be able to do it concurrent with other employment. Would prob take longer than 2 years.
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If you are going to work two shifts, why not go to school on the second shift?
 
Tom-D said:
If you are going to work two shifts, why not go to school on the second shift?
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Schools (in NC) don’t run in second shift. It would be go to school and work second shift. I am willing to take a pay cut, but not a second shift job kind of pay cut.

The work log route has to be 18 months of full time work for either A or P or 30 months for both. AOPA tells me that if you are working part time, it’s 4800 hours of paid work, but the FSDO will have to be the one to approve the time and its up to them.

Not impossible time wise, just many years of effort.
 
Tom-D said:
If you are going to work two shifts, why not go to school on the second shift?
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Sure. If you have a local school that offers a schedule that allows you to work, that would be a good option. Fewer total hours as I understand it. One issue is that you have to pay tuition in addition to putting in the hours. As a shop-helper you won't make a fortune, but at least you are not paying to gain the experience.
Some of the CC based programs are not cheap . There are a few schools that are part of 'adult education' tied in with the school district rather than a college. Those tend to be more affordable.
 
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bflynn said:
Has it become more difficult to get the cert? Strikes me that a part of the reason could be that the requirements have gone up too.
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weilke said:
afaik It is still possible to prove the requisite hours with a work-log.
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The requirements have basically stayed the same. How they are enforced has changed a bit. The cheapest/quickest way to a certificate is a CC A&P program. But not all areas have that.

However, the work for experience method is still an option but heavily influenced by FSDO location, local A&P need, and the ASI dealt with. This was how I got signed off to take my tests.

The change came around the early 90s for 3 reasons: the old GADO guys retired, the existing 147 schools were complaining of unfairness in authorizing test takers, and the helper/apprentice roles changed. Back when I got my authorization, if you survived 30 months working at a 145 shop and your boss recommended you the local ASI would sign you off to take the tests. But back then a helper would pull engines, string wires, buck rivets, clean parts, and sweep the floor. In more recent times most helpers are not used in that same capacity.

Today, most FSDOs want to see a detailed experience log that mirrors the curriculum of a 147 school. But there are still instances I’ve heard of where the feds took less. For the last kid I helped this way (10yrs+ ago) we made an experience journal using the Part 147 Appx B, C, D as a guide. And it was accepted.

So if still thinking of pursuing an A&P drop by the local FSDO and talk to a mx ASI. They might have an option you overlooked or provide the right info for your location.
 
bluerooster said:
Oh, he makes minimum wage. :D
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We have either county-provided or private garbage collection in my county (DC suburbs). The county collectors are well paid, and get full county benefits and pensions (yes, defined benefit pensions). The private collectors? Not so much.
 
weilke said:
I may be wrong, but afaik It is still possible to prove the requisite hours with a work-log. If you have the opportunity to work as a shop-helper/apprentice , you may be able to do it concurrent with other employment. Would prob take longer than 2 years.
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Took me 4 ish years.
 
DFH65 said:
We need an owner maintained catagory like our friends up north.
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They tried with a new Primary Non-Commercial Category but the feds declined several years ago.
 
DFH65 said:
We need an owner maintained catagory like our friends up north.
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I disagree, I've seen what some owners will do.
So has the FAA, you'll never see that across the board.
 
DFH65 said:
I have seen what some A&P 's will do....
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There are hacks in every profession but the odds of good work and proper components are a lot better with someone trained for the job. I wouldn't buy an owner maintained plane unless I knew the owner really well and the pre-buy inspection would have to be a lot more thorough. Too many people think Ace Hardware is the place to buy fasteners. Homebuilt is a whole different can of worms - a guy who tackles building an entire plane is, in general, at a whole different level of mechanical skills and knowledge than the average owner.
 
Punkinhead said:
There are hacks in every profession but the odds of good work and proper components are a lot better with someone trained for the job. I wouldn't buy an owner maintained plane unless I knew the owner really well and the pre-buy inspection would have to be a lot more thorough. Too many people think Ace Hardware is the place to buy fasteners. Homebuilt is a whole different can of worms - a guy who tackles building an entire plane is, in general, at a whole different level of mechanical skills and knowledge than the average owner.
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Well said. !
 
DFH65 said:
We need an owner maintained catagory like our friends up north.
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The problem, people want what our friends up north have, junk aircraft they just want a cheap way out. They want to go back to the days before The Air Commerce Act of May 20, 1926. Aircraft free for all, pilots that have no idea of what they are doing and aircraft maintained or lack of, the good old days.
 
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Punkinhead said:
There are hacks in every profession but the odds of good work and proper components are a lot better with someone trained for the job. I wouldn't buy an owner maintained plane unless I knew the owner really well and the pre-buy inspection would have to be a lot more thorough. Too many people think Ace Hardware is the place to buy fasteners. Homebuilt is a whole different can of worms - a guy who tackles building an entire plane is, in general, at a whole different level of mechanical skills and knowledge than the average owner.
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Are all experimental owners builders of airplanes? News to me. paging @Velocity173 @Jay Honeck et al....

Do they [non-builder, experiemental owners] not belong in said subset of the avocation? I don't own an exAB so no dog in the fight, but I'd love to hear the non-builder, ExAB owners' perspective on the notion only builders (which according to your argument are the only ones who have proven worthy of the luxury of being allowed to self-regulate under experimental rules) belong in EXAB.....
 
hindsight2020 said:
Are all experimental owners builders of airplanes? News to me. paging @Velocity173 @Jay Honeck et al....

Do they [non-builder, experiemental owners] not belong in said subset of the avocation? I don't own an exAB so no dog in the fight, but I'd love to hear the non-builder, ExAB owners' perspective on the notion only builders (which according to your argument are the only ones who have proven worthy of the luxury of being allowed to self-regulate under experimental rules) belong in EXAB.....
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Nope, didn’t build. Like to one day but just no time / room to build.

I’d scrutinize a used EAB far more than a certified if I were interested in buying though. While the days of “ACE Hardware” EABs are mostly a thing of the past, you still need to choose wisely. Personally, I stick to newer and more well known EABs that have a reputable history (Velocity/Glasair). Nothing wrong with an old plans build like a Rutan / Cozy but going with a kit plane where most of the crucial components are already assembled, cuts down on the added risk of builder error significantly. I’d also put some weight on the builders experience as well. My Glasair was like the builders 4th airplane and my Velocity was built by a DAR for the type. I further reduced risk by attending the Velocity owner training program.

I suppose most EAB owners are builders or have an A&P but I’m neither. I bought them built and maintain them as if they were certified. My Velocity was actually bought from them (brokerage) and the first two condition insp by them. Both aircraft are now maintained by a well known Mooney facility. Maybe I’m in the EAB minority but I don’t skimp on maintenance.

So yeah, no problems in buying a used EAB for this guy.
 
A&P IA here as well. For me its wages. I sign logbooks and my work has to be done correctly the first time everytime. With that I would have less licensing requirements, liability, and probley make more money in IT, Automotive, and deseil mechanics given the pay at small mom and pop shops and the lack luster pay in county and state municipalities . I owned my own shop until the insurance requirements became so unbearable I could no longer operate because the majority of my income went to pay insurance companies.
 
I discovered yesterday that I'm the only freelanced A&P-IA working the area north of PAE, from the coast to the cascades. The other IAs are in a FBO covered by the company's insurance.
 
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