A mans economy car

[James331]

I know all the fart sniffing, granola munching types aren't happy unless it runs on batteries, hydrogen or some other whiz bang trend, but if ones wants economy diesel is really the way to go...and has been for a VERY long time.

Sadly most diesel cars are, well lacking, they don't offer the power and skid pad numbers someone like me or my friends look for in a car, they are also often butt ugly.

And then there was a solution which we'll probably never see in the US.

The Trident Iceni

190MPH
0-60 in 3.7
2,000mi per tank!
Rocking a 6.6L turbo V8

Now this is a 100k plus dollar car, but this is the concept car manufactures need to follow, take advantage of good gearing with a large diesel engine in a slick body.
And being a diesel, built with any half decent level of craftsmanship, this would easily be a half million mile to rebuild type of car you could drive for 10 years, your kid could drive for 5 and you could sell after, all while having fun and not filling junkyards up with crap cars.

 

[PPC1052]

Cute.

 

[Bob Noel]

Not enough room for my rifles.

 

[jhausch]

I can't decide if the back window looks more like cleavage or a butt crack...

Clearly, I have issues...

 

[PeeGee]

how is it an economy car? That's like saying the diesel audi r8 is an economy car just because it's a diesel.

 

[frfly172]

How many miles does the car have to be driven,to break even on the fuel savings?

 

[Dav8or]

This is just like one of the latest greatest plastic vaporware airplane threads. "It's useful load is 1500 lbs, burns 6gph, goes 200kts, seats 8, parachute, airbags, glass on top of glass and all for an estimated $250,000. Deliveries start 2016. Put your deposit down today.

Come on!! The pictures look super real and really cool. It's just what you always knew was possible, it just needed a fresh, young start up company to see it!! I can't wait to get mine!

 

[Sac Arrow]

About the only spec on that car that is particularly useful to me is 2,000 miles per tank. There are some diesels for the EU market that are quite practical and efficient though. Something with four seats and a little bit of space (without being a minivan, homie don't do minivans) would be nice.

What would be ideal for me is a Honda Element type vehicle with a small direct injection diesel. Small, maneuverable, roomy, fun to drive.

 

[James331]

how is it an economy car? That's like saying the diesel audi r8 is an economy car just because it's a diesel.

Because it gets good milage

It ain't rocket surgery, a diesel pushing a good amount of torque through a nice transmission, all mounted in a light weight low drag body, yeah that's going to get great milage.

My C6 easily gets 30mpg doing 80mph, with a 6L gas V8, if it were a turbo diesel I'm confident that number would be considerable better.


FYI Trident has been around since the 60s.

 

[Anthony]

Not enough room for my rifles.

I am sure you can a pick up truck with a Cummins that will haul your rifles.

I drive by a Tesla dealer every day, and just say Meh, why?

 

[txflyer]

I had a Chevy Chevette in the 80's that had an Isuzu 4 banger diesel and a five speed manual tranny.

It got a solid 50 m.p.g.

You might get killed trying to merge with traffic on a Houston ramp because it was so under-powered, but man was it ever economical...

 

[BigBadLou]

And then there a solution which we'll probably never see in the US.

That's because 'murca (and most 'murcans) are deathly afraid of anything diesel. At a mere mention of the word, everybody runs and hides under school desks in fear of an nuclear explosion.

All over the world (the OUTSIDE world, you know, the place outside of US borders), diesels are the prevalent mode of transportation due to their great economy, efficiency, mileage and also low maintenance. Here in the US of A, diesel is an overpriced commodity and a feared chemical element.

It is no secret that you can get a TDI VW Golf and drive 60 miles on a gallon. But as long as local manufacturers and import dealerships refuse to make/sell TDI vehicles and propagate the fear of this "witch juice", we won't advance anywhere.

/rant

 

[Dav8or]

It is no secret that you can get a TDI VW Golf and drive 60 miles on a gallon. But as long as local manufacturers and import dealerships refuse to make/sell TDI vehicles and propagate the fear of this "witch juice", we won't advance anywhere.

/rant

The issue is more complex than that. Here in the states we have a higher emissions standard than they do in Europe for diesel cars having to do with particulate count. We also have a lower grade of diesel fuel available with a high sulfur content. To make diesel cars compliant here, it requires special filtration systems that are unique to our country.

These filters are expensive and require routine maintenance. In addition, the fuel taxation here is reverse of Europe. There, diesel fuel is cheap and gasoline is highly taxed. Here, gasoline is cheap and diesel is taxed higher. So in the end, whatever fuel mileage benefits you get are offset by the costs of vehicle purchase price, maintenance, higher taxes and there is no real savings.

Just as people here love to do again and again with electric car threads, they do the math and it just doesn't make sense to go diesel. Federal policy is why we don't have all the cool diesels like they have in Europe. Americans aren't afraid of "witch juice", but I have to say, I buy a fair amount of diesel and I hate the stuff. It's smelly, oily and messy. I much prefer gasoline for handling.

 

[denverpilot]

Loved the diesel Jetta when it was running. And it wasn't the engine that had problems. It was the poor engineering around the engine that did.

Same deal with the Dodge and the Cummins, really. But it's a lot cheaper and easier to work on.

 

[ggroves]

due to their great economy, efficiency, mileage and also low maintenance.

you can get a TDI VW Golf and drive 60 miles on a gallon

Not anymore, and not in a new one. New VW's are complex maintenance nightmares and yield mid-40's driving normal highway speeds.

Great driving feel, but we'll see how many 2009+ VW diesels make it to 500,000 and at what $$$.

 

[ggroves]

And being a diesel, built with any half decent level of craftsmanship, this would easily be a half million mile to rebuild type of car you could drive for 10 years, your kid could drive for 5 and you could sell after, all while having fun and not filling junkyards up with crap cars.

This made me LOL. Thx!

 

[OkieFlyer]

That's because 'murca (and most 'murcans) are deathly afraid of anything diesel. At a mere mention of the word, everybody runs and hides under school desks in fear of an nuclear explosion.

All over the world (the OUTSIDE world, you know, the place outside of US borders), diesels are the prevalent mode of transportation due to their great economy, efficiency, mileage and also low maintenance. Here in the US of A, diesel is an overpriced commodity and a feared chemical element.

It is no secret that you can get a TDI VW Golf and drive 60 miles on a gallon. But as long as local manufacturers and import dealerships refuse to make/sell TDI vehicles and propagate the fear of this "witch juice", we won't advance anywhere.

/rant

What part of 'Murca do you hang out in? There are diesel burning vehicles everywhere. Granted, there aren't many diesel cars here in the states, but nearly any kind of large pick-up, flat bed pick-up, commercial van, bus, big rig, tractor, train, or machinery is burning diesel. We use gas primarily for personal transportation, but nearly all the work is done with diesel. Personally, I wouldn't want my personal vehicle to be a diesel because it's freaking nasty, oily stuff, but if I ever had to haul anything substantial, that's the only way to go.

 

[BigBadLou]

The issue is more complex than that. Here in the states we have a higher emissions standard than they do in Europe for diesel cars having to do with particulate count. We also have a lower grade of diesel fuel available with a high sulfur content. To make diesel cars compliant here, it requires special filtration systems that are unique to our country.

Is it possible that you are confusing California standards with federal standards? A lot of states in the USA do not have any diesel emission standards whatsoever.

These filters are expensive and require routine maintenance. In addition, the fuel taxation here is reverse of Europe. There, diesel fuel is cheap and gasoline is highly taxed. Here, gasoline is cheap and diesel is taxed higher. So in the end, whatever fuel mileage benefits you get are offset by the costs of vehicle purchase price, maintenance, higher taxes and there is no real savings.

I agree. However, that is not a problem with the diesel technology itself, it is a local governmental issue.

Just as people here love to do again and again with electric car threads, they do the math and it just doesn't make sense to go diesel. Federal policy is why we don't have all the cool diesels like they have in Europe.

Again, I agree that the math is understandably off-putting. But it is not the technology that is the problem here.

Americans aren't afraid of "witch juice", but I have to say, I buy a fair amount of diesel and I hate the stuff. It's smelly, oily and messy. I much prefer gasoline for handling.

I detect a hint of personal preference here. Nothing wrong with that. But one should not use it as an argument against a bigger issue.
For me, I don't care whether I have to pump gasoline, E85, diesel or AvGas. If I don't spill it on myself, there is no problem. Though from my own experience, gasoline stings/burns on skin contact and leaves odor longer than diesel.

 

[StinkBug]

And being a diesel, built with any half decent level of craftsmanship, this would easily be a half million mile to rebuild type of car you could drive for 10 years, your kid could drive for 5 and you could sell after, all while having fun and not filling junkyards up with crap cars.

And that right there is one big reason why the auto companies don't want to build cars like this. They dont want you to keep your car for a million miles. They want it to last just long enough to run out the warranty, then fall apart so you'll buy another one. If the junkyards aren't full they aren't doing their jobs right.

 

[StinkBug]

Is it possible that you are confusing California standards with federal standards? A lot of states in the USA do not have any diesel emission standards whatsoever.

No, you're confusing California smog laws with federal emissions standards. Regardless of a state level testing program all vehicles have to meet minimum emission standards in order to be sold in the US. Some states have more stringent certification and recurrent testing standards than others, but the difficulty for manufacturers begins at the federal compliance level.

 

[pilot_dude]

That's because 'murca (and most 'murcans) are deathly afraid of anything diesel. At a mere mention of the word, everybody runs and hides under school desks in fear of an nuclear explosion.

/rant

Some of us also have long memories of the GM debacle where they thought using gasoline engine components in a diesel engine was a recipe for success.
That said, I sold my old gasoline tractor for a diesel with roughly the same displacement and the comparison in torque and fuel consumption convinced me I should have made the change years ago.

 

[James331]

This made me LOL. Thx!

Improper mx

All the diesels I've been around tend to run forever, old MB diesel cars all the way to CUCV 6.2s, newer superduty trucks, tractors, etc.

And that right there is one big reason why the auto companies don't want to build cars like this. They dont want you to keep your car for a million miles. They want it to last just long enough to run out the warranty, then fall apart so you'll buy another one. If the junkyards aren't full they aren't doing their jobs right.

True.

It's funny too that all the "environmentally conscious" folks will get rid of their Prius after 1-2 years, but won't drink out of disposable cups, yet they treat a 2000+lb machine like a disposable diaper.

 

[PaulS]

A man's economy car.....

 

[txflyer]

No more diesel trucks for me.

They pull and get decent mileage and all that but the new gas trucks have almost as much torque and they are quieter, cheaper, just as reliable and they don't have two batteries and hold 15 quarts of oil. And they don't have $2000.00 injector pumps. Oh, and you don't pay a $5000.00 premium for the motor either. Care to guess how much gas you can buy for $5000.00?

Diesel has priced itself out of the personal market imo....

 

[Sac Arrow]

No more diesel trucks for me.

They pull and get decent mileage and all that but the new gas trucks have almost as much torque and they are quieter, cheaper, just as reliable and they don't have two batteries and hold 15 quarts of oil. And they don't have $2000.00 injector pumps. Oh, and you don't pay a $5000.00 premium for the motor either. Care to guess how much gas you can buy for $5000.00?

Diesel has priced itself out of the personal market imo....

It's worked out for me. I bought my Dodge diesel not because I needed to frequently haul big stuff, but the mileage offset is huge and I wanted a full size truck. I kept it for 200,000 miles, and doing the math I figure the cost adder paid for itself at least a couple times. And the only maintenance on it was all warranty work (other than brakes, tires and oil.) Even the original clutch was still good when I sold it.

 

[txflyer]

It's worked out for me. I bought my Dodge diesel not because I needed to frequently haul big stuff, but the mileage offset is huge and I wanted a full size truck. I kept it for 200,000 miles, and doing the math I figure the cost adder paid for itself at least a couple times. And the only maintenance on it was all warranty work (other than brakes, tires and oil.) Even the original clutch was still good when I sold it.

You got lucky because the older Dodge's had a rep for blowing through injector pumps and tranny's.

If I were going to be hooked to a gooseneck all the time pulling over mountains, then I'd probably stick with turbo-diesel. But the new gas engines have altitude compensation so even that is a moot point anymore.

In the old days, a carbureted engine going over the Rockies would have you grinding your teeth.

 

[Sac Arrow]

You got lucky because the older Dodge's had a rep for blowing through injector pumps and tranny's.

If I were going to be hooked to a gooseneck all the time pulling over mountains, then I'd probably stick with turbo-diesel. But the new gas engines have altitude compensation so even that is a moot point anymore.

In the old days, a carbureted engine going over the Rockies would have you grinding your teeth.

Yeah I had a pretty good model. It was the generation just before the 24 valve, which had the Bosch injector pump, which is pretty rock solid.

 

[timwinters]

I know all the fart sniffing, granola munching types aren't happy unless it runs on batteries, hydrogen or some other whiz bang trend,

Beginning a post---a thesis---with a series of gratuitous insults has been proven over the years to consistently build unassailable credibility.

(Especially when coming from someone who makes over 3500 posts in a year.)

 

[Neal Howard]

I can't decide if the back window looks more like cleavage or a butt crack...

Both!

 

[James331]

Beginning a post---a thesis---with a series of gratuitous insults has been proven over the years to consistently build unassailable credibility.

(Especially when coming from someone who makes over 3500 posts in a year.)

I fail to take the internet and message boards that seriously.

Besides 9 times out of 10 it's always the same types of folks who are driving these trendy environmentally friendly wanabee cars.

You seem offended, did my joking generalizations hit home or something

 

[timwinters]

You seem offended, did my joking generalizations hit home or something

Not at all. I drive two trucks.

I don't take offense to it, rather I despise it. It's lowbrow.

 

[DavidWhite]

I just bought a 1982 Chevy C20 for $700. That's a mans economy car.

 

[ggroves]

Improper mx

No. Clean Diesel = dramatically increased complexity. Older MBs, Volvos, VWs, etc were mechanically simple. The new common rail diesels are far less reliable. DPFs, NOx cats, SCR systems, electronic injectors, turbos, high rail pressures, sensors.


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[timwinters]

I just bought a 1982 Chevy C20 for $700. That's a mans economy car.

....

No. Clean Diesel = dramatically increased complexity. Older MBs, Volvos, VWs, etc were mechanically simple. The new common rail diesels are far less reliable. DPFs, NOx cats, SCR systems, electronic injectors, turbos, high rail pressures, sensors.

Boy, howdy, my 2008 dodge cummins diesel was a freakin' mx hog. Spend a brazilian dollars on it in the three years and 75,000 miles that I had it. Well, I didn't because it was all under warranty.

No way I was going to own it after the warranty expired. But worse was all the hassle taking it in to be worked on all the time and being without it...and all my equipment (or the addl hassle to transferring equip to a rental/loaner)...when I was still in business.

 

[James331]

No. Clean Diesel = dramatically increased complexity. Older MBs, Volvos, VWs, etc were mechanically simple. The new common rail diesels are far less reliable. DPFs, NOx cats, SCR systems, electronic injectors, turbos, high rail pressures, sensors.


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Indeed.

 

[JHW]

This is the only diesel pickup truck that makes sense for me. In my day job we design and manufacture new diesel engines. I know them inside and out. I'm not owning one in my garage, the economics aren't there for personal transportation or pulling a boat or horse trailer. New diesels are for doing a job where you can put enough hours on them to make the $$ pencil out.

But the old ones, can be very economical if you don't mind tinkering a little. This one gets 50-55mpg and needed a $400 injector pump rebuild at ~250k miles. Most of the time, I'm going to the airport and at most taking a toolbox, air compressor, and shop vac. There's no call for a full-size pickup for that.

BTW we took this into work on a saturday long ago and tried it on the chassis dyno. 42hp to the ground. It's a good thing it has headrests to avoid acceleration whiplash.

 

[denverpilot]

I love your little VW truck. Heh. It's cool.

 

[jhausch]

Jeff, 42hp! Impressive....

That one must have DUAL inline squirrels with double overhead feedbags.

 

[Bill]

Had a Rabbit diesel of the same era, slow but reliable. My driving technique was simple. Let out clutch, burry pedal in the carpet. When the speedo needle gets to the shift dot, shift and burry pedal in the carpet. Rinse/repeat until in top gear. Keep pedal buried in the carpet.

 

[yakdriver]

2000 miles to the tank. You didn't mention it has a 100 gal fuel tank.