A Limited IFR Certified EFB (Like Basic Med For RNAV)

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
So I will first admit, I do not have my instrument rating yet so maybe some dumb questions/suggestions will follow :)

As an owner of a 46 yr old airplane without any RNAV capable equipment I am currently left with but one choice...spend lots of money or just use the old equipment to airports that support VOR/DEM approaches (which are going away). I have to believe there are many others in this same camp give or take how many VOR's, NDB and maybe a DME or not. So now my dumb question/suggestion.

If the government could kind of do for RNAV what it did for Medicals and relax the standards somewhat with obvious restrictions, maybe there could a lower cost (but higher volume) limited RNAV capable EFB. What if it went like this:

  1. Large Credible Vendor (eg Garmin) identifies a specific tablet (eg. iPad Mini 4)
  2. The create a specialized version of their Garmin Pilot which has some redundancy built in to detect errors, etc.
  3. That specialized version requires a WAAS GPS source be installed in the plane (so they get their hardware money).
  4. The application might have to be installed by a Garmin authorized representative. Perhaps they even reset the device entirely, install this application first and it always starts up immediately, no lock screen, etc.
  5. If aircraft has some legacy working equipment (VOR/DME/GS) its minimums could be lower.
  6. Instrument flight plans can be followed and RNAV approaches can be made but possible having higher minimums.
  7. Target a software price of like $1000. Maybe installation fee of about $100. Or depending on subscription fees maybe no up front costs.
  8. Lots and lots of legal speak and waivers.
  9. Maybe include a deep discount if you are buying a Garmin WAAS source.
  10. Maybe minimums/allowances could be reduced more with a second one in the cockpit.
  11. Maybe some external mounting requirements (yoke and/or fixed in the panel).
In a way I can see several advantages and I would think there would be $$$$ in it for a business like Garmin:
  1. Thousands of vintage aircraft owners might have a cost effect way to fly Instrument flight plans in the NAS.
  2. Many owners who are thinking of just staying outside of ADSB-out restricted areas might adopt and spend some $$$$ on Garmin hardware.
  3. It might be a lot easier to sell thousands of $1000 things (which have no hardware development!) to thousands of owners than getting just a few to buy their $15K things.
  4. If you are an aircraft renter, as long as the A/C has a WAAS source you can move your IFR allowed EFB from one plane to the next.
  5. Instructors can carry their IFR rated EFB with them to instruct or use as a backup.
  6. Since you carry the EFB home, it can always be up to date and covered under whatever subscription fee there is.
  7. This could hurt the installers but maybe not that much if they get more ADSB / Xpdr business.

....lets say the FAA went along with this...would the Garmin's of the world go for it? And if Garmin went for it, would it be practical from an actually flying point of view?
 
I can't see the FAA buying it. First off all of the integrity stuff would have to be in the panel mount side.
Second, I'm not even sure I'd buy the FAA allowing the primary nav stuff being offloaded in the tablet. Garmin Pilot doesn't have the balls to do approach navigation with the required accuracy.
You'd still need a panel mounted indicator, I'm sure. Nobody is going to fly pseudo-precision approaches with a iPad as the display.

So what you're really talking about is essentially an aircraft mounted GPS that pretty much does all the essential stuff and a "situational awareness" app (essentially a handheld MFD) and maybe some remote control on the iPad. You almost have exactly that now on some of the current crop.
 
As crazy as it sounds, the iPad or current tablets aren’t reliable enough. They fail. They lock up. They overheat. Would need to be something relatively new I imagine to make that situation work.
I get it. I would be nice and in the future it might be there.
 
Consumer tablets aren't nearly robust or reliable enough. There is some hope that the FAA will see the wisdom in opening up the rules to make it easier to get panel-mounted products to market, similar to the way they have with AOA indicators.
 
Furhter, you're not talking about an EFB. An EFB is for carrying plates and charts around, not a form of sole navigation.
 
I don't see Garmin ever doing that. As long as they own the market with 430/530's and 650/750's why would they produce something that would price themselves out? The only way that works is if those items are only legal for part 91 flights. Then the commercial guys still have to buy a 650/750 but the lowly private pilot with instrument rating might buy the cheap Garmin Gizmo if he can use it for IFR.
 
lancie00 said:
I don't see Garmin ever doing that. As long as they own the market with 430/530's and 650/750's why would they produce something that would price themselves out? The only way that works is if those items are only legal for part 91 flights. Then the commercial guys still have to buy a 650/750 but the lowly private pilot with instrument rating might buy the cheap Garmin Gizmo if he can use it for IFR.
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Which may be a good source of revenue, as most older planes aren't going to be upgraded.
 
You're essentially talking about using the iPad as a display for a faceless panel-mounted GPS. I'm sure the FAA would still require an indicator in the panel for any consumer-grade tablet to be allowed in this way.

So, you're talking about certifying a headless GPS, which isn't going to be any cheaper than certifying a 650 or 750. In fact, it would probably cost more because they'd need to identify and work around any possible failure modes of not only the tablet itself but also the wireless connection between the tablet and the GPS.

The display isn't the expensive part of a GTN... It's the certification. Your proposed system would not be any cheaper than a GTN. :(
 
Sinistar said:
... use the old equipment to airports that support VOR/DEM approaches (which are going away)...
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Not for nuttin', but while I agree that NDB is a dying technology, ILS still has a long way to go. Sure, there are places that are GPS only, but in most areas, you're in fine shape if you can do ILS, localizer and VOR approaches - and this is pretty cheap stuff as far as aircraft equipment goes. Besides, unless you have WAAS GPS, you need a backup anyway, and ILS is going to get you better minimums than LNAV.

You can of course use your iPad and Stratus (or whatever) with synthetic vision and all that as an aid for positional awareness anyway. so it's not like you can't use that stuff anyway. Just feely a little less risky than getting your life on a finicky iPad that was never certified to meet the standards the panel mounted stuff does.
 
Not going to happen. Portable equipment does not meet TSO standards for reliability and integrity monitoring and annunciation. Plus as others have mentioned, there must be a navigation indicator, either integrated or separate, within a certain distance of the main instrument scan.

On the other hand, you can use portable equipment for situational awareness all you want, and virtually every IFR pilot does this I would suspect. But the primary GPS approach nav is a TSO certified installation.
 
I've "lost" my iPad due to heat, battery and "update required" all during flight. I would never rely on that thing in the soup.
 
AndrewX said:
I've "lost" my iPad due to heat, battery and "update required" all during flight. I would never rely on that thing in the soup.
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Even in VFR... reliability, a big reason way I fly with at 430W to see FIS-B weather and traffic. Love my iPad and use it heavily, but very glad to have a panel solution too. I could not imagine doing an instrument scan down on my yoke. A pilots eyes are not as likely on periphery view of annunciators etc.
 
Will never happen, nor should it happen. Portable consumer electronics are not up to this mission-critical task. There's a lot more that goes into this than seeing your airplane track accurately on your iPad's moving map display. Think error-checking and redundancy. That's the big difference between IFR nav and VFR.
 
chemgeek said:
On the other hand, you can use portable equipment for situational awareness all you want, and virtually every IFR pilot does this I would suspect. But the primary GPS approach nav is a TSO certified installation.
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Right. That's the difference. Most, if not nearly all of us, do precisely that. I have a GTN650 in my panel, yet I watch my little airplane motor around on the approach plate on my iPad as I get vectored in... it's great SA, just not even close to suitable as a primary nav source.
 
I saw an iPad "panel mounted" (velcro?) in a Cherokee I peeked in. Pretty sure he had ILS, too, however. My "primary" nav is an iPad, with a panel mount G-530 backing it up and keeping me legal, until the approach phase. Then it's the G-530, as the FF approach plate display isn't granular in scaling.
 
Man, what are you guys doing to your iPads? I’ve never lost mine or had it quit on me, flying or otherwise...
 
Sundancer said:
I saw an iPad "panel mounted" (velcro?) in a Cherokee I peeked in. Pretty sure he had ILS, too, however. My "primary" nav is an iPad, with a panel mount G-530 backing it up and keeping me legal, until the approach phase. Then it's the G-530, as the FF approach plate display isn't granular in scaling.
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My iPad is panel mounted with Velcro, and although it’s only considered “back up / situational awareness” it’s definitely in my scan and used more (solely) for enroute navigation.
 
tawood said:
Man, what are you guys doing to your iPads? I’ve never lost mine or had it quit on me, flying or otherwise...
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Probably because we live in the Midwest where it doesn't get so hot like in the South. I have had wacky GPS stuff happen to mine but that was not the ipads fault.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Probably because we live in the Midwest where it doesn't get so hot like in the South. I have had wacky GPS stuff happen to mine but that was not the ipads fault.
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Now that I think of it, my iPhone has quit from heat before, when I left it on the dash.
 
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had one of the portable vfr units like a garmin aera 796 quit on them? I know they're not legal either, just wondered if they were more reliable than an iPad.
 
Thanks for all the inputs. I suspected this would get all hung up on the tablet's reliability.

I just wondered if with a high standard of minimums and backup equipment it might be possible. For example you can have a SIL3 safety system which will usually have redundant micros (but only detect errors, not recover) and of course the failure analysys. But then there is SIL2 which is to lower standard, not necessarily the need for redundant micros, etc. The SIL2 equipment can't be used in the same places, hazards, distances as the SIL3 device. But it still serves a practical purpose.

Also, if this option were possible I would think Garmin would make significantly more revenue. Especially if tied to a subscription service. Actually, I would think it would be the installers who would be out. For example, for every certificated plane getting a 530 or better how many planes (well owners) will not install any RNAV capability. If that ratio hits 10:1 I would see them making lots of money on much easier sales / subscriptions.

Obviously the FAA would not stand for the lack of robustness but I wasn't sure if there were backups (VOR/DME) they could live with it to get more people flying in the NAS. Maybe they don't want that?

And I agree, if it were approved the mounting location and ships power would be very important. But then again, if this were possible there would probably be tablet mounted in the panel and ship powered in the place of the RNAV capable equipment.
 
There is already guidance that says you can navigate direct using VOR for confirmation of position and portable GPS for situational awareness (e.g. follow the magenta line).
This means you need to perform VOR/ILS approaches. Make sure you have VOR fixes and position ready to verify position though.

There were articles in AOPA and I think flying magazines about this years ago.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
lancie00 said:
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had one of the portable vfr units like a garmin aera 796 quit on them? I know they're not legal either, just wondered if they were more reliable than an iPad.
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That would be interesting to find out...
 
My AERA 510 has never quit on me, although sometimes the connector in the mounting bracket doesn't make good contact and the XM weather puck goes off line. But it still doesn't meet TSO requirements for IFR sole navigation. It's a great backup device, however, and before I installed ADS-B, my only source of in-flight weather and display of same.
 
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