A good plane. Bad broker. My first experience trying to buy a plane.

[TCABM]

Trust me we are trying to get the actual owners email and number to tell them how their broker is treating buyers

Edit: never mind. @AggieMike already got the info. Should have read lol the way thru first.

Have you tried an N number search? Free. 30 seconds. Probably all the info you will need to contact the owner.

 

[Ravioli]

Trust me we are trying to get the actual owners email and number to tell them how their broker is treating buyers

Since Professor Dick is a broker the seller probably signed an agreement that they (and you) cannot cut him out of the transaction. Very much like a Realtor.

Wave goodbye to that plane. Eventually you'll be glad you did.

Also, the seller likely used a broker to avoid dealing with buyers, so tracking him down isn't cool.

 

[weilke]

Irrelevant. I've done airplane sales both ways (price agreed in advance and price negotiated after the prebuy).

Not having an agreed price before the prebuy is no excuse for the broker to behave that way.

Very relevant in this case. This plane was 10-15k overpriced and it was clear that price would be the factor that determines whether a deal would happen. Why waste anyone's time and money if there was a zero chance of arriving at a workable number ?

On a plane that is priced right and all you care about is condition, I agree there is no need to haggle up front.

I am not excusing the broker being a Dick.

 

[weilke]

Also, the seller likely used a broker to avoid dealing with buyers, so tracking him down isn't cool.

The seller should know that the broker cost him a quick sale.

 

[tspear]

Hello @Rebel Lord ,

A few points.
1. You will pay a bit more, but consider a buyer's broker. It often is worth it because you learn a lot.
2. In your post discussing what happened, you mix fact and opinion a fair amount. You actually will be better served by expressly separating them. Further, getting in the habit of doing so, will actually help you in negotiations.
3. I would also suggest that you define your mission (UL, range, SOB), purchase budget, operating budget, upgrade budget, preferences (e.g. low wing versus high wing, conventional vs taildragger) and post a thread asking for advice. Depending on the length of time you will likely keep the plane, you can get advice which tweaks the search to match the requirements.

Good luck,

Tim

 

[Ravioli]

1. You will pay a bit more, but consider a buyer's broker. It often is worth it because you learn a lot.

Yah, I hear there's an experienced broker in the Metroplex. What was his name? Flick? Thick? Wick? Slick? Oh... never mind

[Sorry, too easy]

 

[Stewartb]

One-sided internet reputation bashing says a lot about a guy.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Very relevant in this case. This plane was 10-15k overpriced and it was clear that price would be the factor that determines whether a deal would happen. Why waste anyone's time and money if there was a zero chance of arriving at a workable number ?

On a plane that is priced right and all you care about is condition, I agree there is no need to haggle up front.

I am not excusing the broker being a Dick.

It is not at all unusual for the published asking price to be inflated. In many cases it is almost expected.

In this case, the broker agreed to let the airplane go to prebuy without a pre-agreed price. There is no excuse for him to act the way he did in that situation.

The OP did nothing wrong.

 

[Rebel Lord]

One-sided internet reputation bashing says a lot about a guy.

If someone was a complete jerk to you would you not want to warn others? I'll say up front I don't care if people take what I say worth a grain of salt but I feel like I have to share my experience, and trust me I have had plenty of people be jerks to me and I just let it go but what this guy did was something else.

 

[FastEddieB]

Nothing is stopping Mr. Dick from logging on here and presenting his side of the story.

 

[Rebel Lord]

And I'll be right up front with this, we are new to this so me and my dad don't know a lot about the nuances of used airplane sales and we tried to express that we needed some help with things and some patients. We may have been way off with what we were asking but we are used to people willing to help us out, especially older people.

 

[tspear]

Yah, I hear there's an experienced broker in the Metroplex. What was his name? Flick? Thick? Wick? Slick? Oh... never mind

[Sorry, too easy]

rofl. Well played.

Tim

 

[coloradobluesky]

There are plenty of airplane buyers "cash on the ramp" that offer 1/2 of appraised value! And a few sellers, that cant get rid of their plane, take them up on it. Its one way to "buy low". There's nothing unethical in making a low offer. If that price is out of the question the seller should reply with "I wouldnt even consider that low an offer, if you are serious, make another offer". If three other buyers have looked at it and left, it must not be that great a deal. Dont get mad, just keep looking.

 

[Fearless Tower]

And I'll be right up front with this, we are new to this so me and my dad don't know a lot about the nuances of used airplane sales and we tried to express that we needed some help with things and some patients. We may have been way off with what we were asking but we are used to people willing to help us out, especially older people.

Don't sweat it. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but everyone has to start somewhere.

You really didn't do anything wrong, certainly not to the point to get that kind of treatment/response.

Plenty of people here and elsewhere will tell you: this is how it should be/how you should have acted, but take it with a grain of salt.

I have personally been involved in 8 airplane deals. Actually completed/purchased 4 of those airplanes. And while folks will adamantly beat their chest here and tell you "this is how it is done"…..I can honestly say that none of those 8 deals were the same. Some were with brokers, some were individuals. Some used escrow, some had no deposit at all. Some had signed purchase agreements before the pre-buy and others negotiated after the inspection.

Just like you see differences of opinion here on the board, you'll see quite a bit of variation when dealing with aircraft owners and brokers.

 

[Salty]

It is not at all unusual for the published asking price to be inflated. In many cases it is almost expected.

In this case, the broker agreed to let the airplane go to prebuy without a pre-agreed price. There is no excuse for him to act the way he did in that situation.

The OP did nothing wrong.

How did the broker do that? The OP stated that the broker clearly said the price was not negotiable.

He also said he would not take anything but the asking price, which was 84,500!

Then the OP is shocked when he doesn't want to negotiate.

 

[weilke]

And I'll be right up front with this, we are new to this so me and my dad don't know a lot about the nuances of used airplane sales and we tried to express that we needed some help with things and some patients. We may have been way off with what we were asking but we are used to people willing to help us out, especially older people.

The sellers broker is not your friend. He is hired to represent the sellers interest and to achieve the highest price possible. You can either hire a buyers rep to advise on the process, or you need someone who has bought a plane or two to help you with the process.

You had received a couple of subtle and not so subtle hints and recommendations in your last thread (including information from an enrolled agent on your mistaken understanding of the tax situation). I know it's hard to listen when you are in lust, but it may help you and your dad to avoid expensive mistakes. This time, all you got out of it was a visit to grandma and a relatively cheap lesson in human behaviour.

 

[Fearless Tower]

There are plenty of airplane buyers "cash on the ramp" that offer 1/2 of appraised value! And a few sellers, that cant get rid of their plane, take them up on it. Its one way to "buy low". There's nothing unethical in making a low offer. If that price is out of the question the seller should reply with "I wouldnt even consider that low an offer, if you are serious, make another offer". If three other buyers have looked at it and left, it must not be that great a deal. Dont get mad, just keep looking.

True. The seller can always say no or say that offer is too low to take right now and wait and take his chances on holding out for a better deal.

I still don't think the OP offering $10k less than an excessively high asking price is low-balling though.

When I bought my Twin Beech, the asking price was waaaay high and the airplane had been sitting on the market for a while. I offered what I thought was a fair price, but $30-40K lower than the asking. Owner politely said if he couldn't get his full asking price, he'd just keep it. We negotiated a couple times more and finally agreed on a price that was somewhere in between my original offer and his original asking price. No egos. No hurt feelings. It can be done.

 

[paflyer]

... he told the woman "Go check your own f**king prices" we just kind of smiled and let him keep talking. So that was our first heads up something was wrong.

Actually the first heads up was that it's way overpriced.

 

[Fearless Tower]

How did the broker do that? The OP stated that the broker clearly said the price was not negotiable.

The broker made that statement AFTER they already started the prebuy. Not before they showed arranged travel to have the aircraft inspected. If that was the case, the broker should have insisted on a signed agreement before any open and inspect. That is 100% on the broker (who should know better) in this case.

Now, considering the brokers comment, it might have been better for the OP's dad to present his offer as "this is what we found wrong with the airplane on the prebuy…..fix all this stuff including the corrosion and paint damage and we'll pay your asking price or take $75k and we'll deal with the discrepancies"

Still no excuse for the broker to behave the way he did.

 

[Salty]

True. The seller can always say no or say that offer is too low to take right now and wait and take his chances on holding out for a better deal.

I still don't think the OP offering $10k less than an excessively high asking price is low-balling though.

When I bought my Twin Beech, the asking price was waaaay high and the airplane had been sitting on the market for a while. I offered what I thought was a fair price, but $30-40K lower than the asking. Owner politely said if he couldn't get his full asking price, he'd just keep it. We negotiated a couple times more and finally agreed on a price that was somewhere in between my original offer and his original asking price. No egos. No hurt feelings. It can be done.

There's nothing wrong with offering less, but why would you be surprised when they don't take it?

 

[Salty]

The broker made that statement AFTER they already started the prebuy. Not before they showed arranged travel to have the aircraft inspected. If that was the case, the broker should have insisted on a signed agreement before any open and inspect. That is 100% on the broker (who should know better) in this case.

I'm too lazy to go find it, but the broker told him that before he went to look for it too.

 

[Fearless Tower]

There's nothing wrong with offering less, but why would you be surprised when they don't take it?

I don't think the issue here is that the seller didn't take the offer as it is the hostile reaction of the broker to the buyer's offer.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm too lazy to go find it, but the broker told him that before he went to look for it too.

Maybe OP can clarify. I haven't been following his other thread.

 

[paflyer]

Sorry, I just skimmed through your post and didn't catch that. Post the exact plane you're looking at so I have some ammo to work with so I can screw with this guy. I guarantee it, I'll mind f**k him so bad I'll have him waiting all day long to pick me up from the local airport, and then I'll tell him that I found another plane in the area and decided to buy that one.

Yeah, tell him you want to take it on a 1500 mile XC to check it out thoroughly.

 

[paflyer]

Since Professor Dick is a broker the seller probably signed an agreement that they (and you) cannot cut him out of the transaction. Very much like a Realtor.

Wave goodbye to that plane. Eventually you'll be glad you did.

Also, the seller likely used a broker to avoid dealing with buyers, so tracking him down isn't cool.

Realtors can be fired for being, well, a Dick.

 

[JimNtexas]

You didn't do badly, there are silly people in every walk of life.

I might have had the pre-buy done even before I went to visit and test fly the airplane, but there are two sides to that coin.

Keep in mind that in Texas if you buy through a broker you will pay sales tax.

Good luck with the next plane, the plane you want is out there.

 

[paflyer]

And I'll be right up front with this, we are new to this so me and my dad don't know a lot about the nuances of used airplane sales and we tried to express that we needed some help with things and some patients. We may have been way off with what we were asking but we are used to people willing to help us out, especially older people.

1) Buying an airplane is more like buying a house than a car.
2) Going into negotiations with someone you don't know and with a vested interest opposing yours and telling them that you have no idea what you're doing is not the strongest position you can create for yourself.
2a) Hire someone who knows what they're doing or get an otherwise experienced, trusted adviser.
3) Get an title and escrow service lined up before the next negotiation.

 

[AggieMike88]

Keep in mind that in Texas if you buy through a broker [or a dealer, such as Van Bortel -- AM88] you will pay sales tax.

Yup. And if such becomes the case, make sure to pay the tax promptly and then always always maintain appropriate documentation that it was paid. It's not uncommon that the State forgets you've already paid and tries to bill you again.

 

[Ted]

There is a wide range of personalities with brokers. You got one on the bottom end.

There is an advantage to having a buyer's agent to help you. There are a number of individuals who will help and look out for your interests, and also help to minimize some of the negative interactions with brokers. I've done this in the past and it can work well.

I'd agree that people will try to hide all kinds of sins in the airplane sales market. I've seen some real doozies. So make sure you have someone on your side. A mechanic is very important here, preferably someone who knows the specifics of the type of plane you're looking to buy.

I'd avoid buying a plane that had a Florida history. Those things will have corrosion.

 

[Rebel Lord]

The broker made that statement AFTER they already started the prebuy. Not before they showed arranged travel to have the aircraft inspected. If that was the case, the broker should have insisted on a signed agreement before any open and inspect. That is 100% on the broker (who should know better) in this case.

Now, considering the brokers comment, it might have been better for the OP's dad to present his offer as "this is what we found wrong with the airplane on the prebuy…..fix all this stuff including the corrosion and paint damage and we'll pay your asking price or take $75k and we'll deal with the discrepancies"

Still no excuse for the broker to behave the way he did.

There's nothing wrong with offering less, but why would you be surprised when they don't take it?

Here's the funny thing, in the other thread we were prepared to offer the full amount if they fixed those few things but my dad never and got to say that before the guy hung up.

 

[ktup-flyer]

There are plenty of airplane buyers "cash on the ramp" that offer 1/2 of appraised value! And a few sellers, that cant get rid of their plane, take them up on it. Its one way to "buy low". There's nothing unethical in making a low offer. If that price is out of the question the seller should reply with "I wouldnt even consider that low an offer, if you are serious, make another offer". If three other buyers have looked at it and left, it must not be that great a deal. Dont get mad, just keep looking.

Then you have people that think their plane is one of the 7 wonders of the world and won't budge. There's a guy up north with a legacy 182 with a G500, GTN750 and a few other gadgets and he won't go under $180k. That's what I got him down to from $200k after haggling for 5 months

 

[paflyer]

There is a wide range of personalities with brokers. You got one on the bottom end.

There is an advantage to having a buyer's agent to help you. There are a number of individuals who will help and look out for your interests, and also help to minimize some of the negative interactions with brokers. I've done this in the past and it can work well.

I'd agree that people will try to hide all kinds of sins in the airplane sales market. I've seen some real doozies. So make sure you have someone on your side. A mechanic is very important here, preferably someone who knows the specifics of the type of plane you're looking to buy.

I'd avoid buying a plane that had a Florida history. Those things will have corrosion.

There's corrosion, and there's corrosion...

 

[Ted]

There's corrosion, and there's corrosion...

Yes, very true. And in Florida, there's corrosion.

The most corroded airplane I'd ever seen came from Florida. Sold with a "fresh annual" and claimed "no corrosion."

 

[weilke]

It is not at all unusual for the published asking price to be inflated. In many cases it is almost expected.

In this case, the broker agreed to let the airplane go to prebuy without a pre-agreed price. There is no excuse for him to act the way he did in that situation.

The OP did nothing wrong.

Again, you are misconstruing what I said into an endorsement of the brokers behaviour.

The broker has no right to bet upset about a 'lowball' offer if he allowed the process to proceed without having addressed the price. I understand why he did this, he had a fish on his line and he wanted the hook to bury a bit further into the OPs cheek before he starts to reel him in.

I suspect the 'firm' price was set by the seller, not the broker. Unless the broker had some unusual fixed fee setup with the seller, he has an interest in getting the deal done at any price vs. it not happening at all. There may be an accounting or legal reason why the seller put the price at 'what he has into the plane'. A broker with a regular commission fee structure would have said 'I think the plane is worth 84k, and dont think the seller is going to budge, but let me make some phonecalls'. x% of $78,500 is a greater number than zero.







And then there is a small chance that we are are all being trolled.

 

[Anthony]

I don't think a $75K offer on an $85K asking price is a "lowball offer", and I don't understand why people get upset even if it was a lowball offer. It is called negotiating. As the OP said, the offer was "to get the ball rolling". When you make an offer two things can happen. You get a counter offer, or the seller says no, (or counters with the same asking price). At that point the buyer can either pay asking, or walk. No harm no fowl. There is no reason for anyone to get insulted, nor upset.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Again, you are misconstruing what I said into an endorsement of the brokers behaviour.

I think you are the one misconstruing. My original point was simply that the OP was not necessarily at fault for not having a predesigned purchase agreement.

End of story. If you want to keep arguing about it go for it. I'm done with you.

 

[PaulS]

I think the dick did you a favor, corrosion, bubbled paint, bolts on the engine that don't look right. Run away. Lots more fish in the sea.

 

[James_Dean]

I'm perplexed at how a plane got into a mechanics shop without a written agreement and a contingent offer. No f'ing way are you bringing my plane to a strange mechanic to poke around without cash on the barrel.

 

[weilke]

I think you are the one misconstruing. My original point was simply that the OP was not necessarily at fault for not having a predesigned purchase agreement.

He is wrong on being upset that the 'deal' fell through. There was never a 'deal'. He went to look at a plane, he voluntarily spend money on having a mechanic evaluate the plane and when it came to negotiating the other side was not interested to counter-offer.

 

[azblackbird]

Yeah, tell him you want to take it on a 1500 mile XC to check it out thoroughly.

To tell you the truth, if I were to buy a plane, yes... I would take it on a long cross country to find any kinks or bugs. Too many people buy planes and then shortly afterwards end up dumping tons of money into it because they didn't do a thorough enough test flight.