A goal of becoming a pilot

CaptLabrador said:
Im in south san francisco, plan on getting rated in Febuaray and work out of the International School at San Carlos. I did all my training out of KSAC at a place called Skywalk.
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Cool. I wonder what they would charge per hour for you and a 150 or 152 (and if you fit inside one). I have my BFR coming up due at the end of 2013. I've always been afraid of San Carlos and Palo Alto due to all the codes and radio work. I need to "get over it" since they are great airports for me to pick up my SF friends.

I'm loyal to my flight school, yes, but if I'm already paying for a BFR I might as well do something else along with it.
 
CaptLabrador said:
Im in south san francisco, plan on getting rated in Febuaray and work out of the International School at San Carlos. I did all my training out of KSAC at a place called Skywalk.
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Hey we're neighbors! I live in SSF too. :thumbsup:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Cool. I wonder what they would charge per hour for you and a 150 or 152 (and if you fit inside one). I have my BFR coming up due at the end of 2013. I've always been afraid of San Carlos and Palo Alto due to all the codes and radio work. I need to "get over it" since they are great airports for me to pick up my SF friends.

I'm loyal to my flight school, yes, but if I'm already paying for a BFR I might as well do something else along with it.
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They have a bunch of 152's. I think its $65 instructor rate an hour and $115 for the plane at a pay as you go rate. It is a pt 141 school so they prefer students who drop off big checks but its the only place I know to work in the bay that will give me full time workload of students and I like the 141 based curriculum. San Carlos is an amazing airport, plus Id heard its the only place they will give you 1500 msl for a bay tour otherwise they sit you at 2000 or above. The ingress egress procedures are a little wonky but once you go there a couple times its no biggie. This should help


http://www.sancarlosairport.org/?page_id=41
 
OMG yay SF. I wonder if you guys are on any of the local groups?

Groups like:

Local EAA Chapters
Local Airport Organizations
Meetup groups
Email lists (Bay Area Pilots etc)
Facebook pilot groups
 
CaptLabrador said:
They have a bunch of 152's. I think its $65 instructor rate an hour and $115 for the plane at a pay as you go rate. It is a pt 141 school so they prefer students who drop off big checks but its the only place I know to work in the bay that will give me full time workload of students and I like the 141 based curriculum. San Carlos is an amazing airport, plus Id heard its the only place they will give you 1500 msl for a bay tour otherwise they sit you at 2000 or above. The ingress egress procedures are a little wonky but once you go there a couple times its no biggie. This should help


http://www.sancarlosairport.org/?page_id=41
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Give me a Bay Tour? I give myself a Bay Tour (abbreviated). I stay out of the Bravo and the Charlie and heck I don't even have to talk to ATC. I do always talk to them, of course, but many times they don't say anything since they are too busy. I use 1800 feet mostly which clears me above the GGB and most downtown structures.
 
CaptLabrador said:
They have a bunch of 152's. I think its $65 instructor rate an hour and $115 for the plane at a pay as you go rate. It is a pt 141 school so they prefer students who drop off big checks but its the only place I know to work in the bay that will give me full time workload of students and I like the 141 based curriculum. San Carlos is an amazing airport, plus Id heard its the only place they will give you 1500 msl for a bay tour otherwise they sit you at 2000 or above. The ingress egress procedures are a little wonky but once you go there a couple times its no biggie. This should help


http://www.sancarlosairport.org/?page_id=41
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Is there a fuel surcharge on top of the $115? That's $180 per hour already.

Mine is:

$80 (plane)
$3 - 5 (current fuel surcharge, goes down and up)
$54 instructor (only 49 for primary)

So I'm at $139 or so.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
OMG yay SF. I wonder if you guys are on any of the local groups?

Groups like:

Local EAA Chapters
Local Airport Organizations
Meetup groups
Email lists (Bay Area Pilots etc)
Facebook pilot groups
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Im pretty new to the area flying wise. Im just a member of Civil Air Patrol out of Oakland, Squadron 188. which if your looking for the occasional free flying opportunities can be very beneficial. Also, renting a 182 at a rate of around $85/hr doesnt hurt.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Cool. I wonder what they would charge per hour for you and a 150 or 152 (and if you fit inside one). I have my BFR coming up due at the end of 2013. I've always been afraid of San Carlos and Palo Alto due to all the codes and radio work. I need to "get over it" since they are great airports for me to pick up my SF friends.

I'm loyal to my flight school, yes, but if I'm already paying for a BFR I might as well do something else along with it.
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Tell me about the onerous codes and radio work. You mean changing the digits on the transponder? That's work? As I recall there are only four. And you are mentoring students while afraid of the radio? Doesn't sound like the Kim that we have grown to admire over the past year or so. You do need to get over it, for sure.

Bob Gardner
 
CaptLabrador said:
Im pretty new to the area flying wise. Im just a member of Civil Air Patrol out of Oakland, Squadron 188. which if your looking for the occasional free flying opportunities can be very beneficial. Also, renting a 182 at a rate of around $85/hr doesnt hurt.
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I've heard bad things about the Civil Air Patrol, and, quite by accident, stumbled upon a similar program through the Coast Guard. I'm much too invested in that now to look into the CAP but I would like to talk to you about it. I start my training next January and should be in a plane by April (non pilot duties / privately owned smaller planes).
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Is there a fuel surcharge on top of the $115? That's $180 per hour already.

Mine is:

$80 (plane)
$3 - 5 (current fuel surcharge, goes down and up)
$54 instructor (only 49 for primary)

So I'm at $139 or so.
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Not sure of the details exactly or if the owner wants to work out some deal since its extra money but he pretty much caters towards people on a career track and like I said....likes big checks, the business type, not a pilot. :yikes:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I've heard bad things about the Civil Air Patrol, and, quite by accident, stumbled upon a similar program through the Coast Guard. I'm much too invested in that now to look into the CAP but I would like to talk to you about it. I start my training next January and should be in a plane by April (non pilot duties / privately owned smaller planes).
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What did you hear about CAP? im very interested
 
bobmrg said:
Tell me about the onerous codes and radio work. You mean changing the digits on the transponder? That's work? As I recall there are only four. And you are mentoring students while afraid of the radio? Doesn't sound like the Kim that we have grown to admire over the past year or so. You do need to get over it, for sure.

Bob Gardner
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Oh geez. I just mean that I personally wouldn't land / takeoff from there without at least paying a CFI for some ground time. Have you seen the weird rules for just Palo Alto? I've flown in and out of there many times with other pilots and sat right seat. The landing, takeoff, handoffs, etc. would fill up an entire kneeboard. Overwhelming. I went with a CFI recently to Napa which has multiple runways - I'm not as good as I should be - I mostly fall prey to the old "you get comfortable with your home airport."

Do I know this is bad? Yes. Right now it is what I can afford. Sorry to let you down.

And by mentoring I mean they meet with me when they have questions about a sectional or calling and getting a briefing or the ATIS or something. Other things I'd send them right back to their CFI of course.
 
CaptLabrador said:
They have a bunch of 152's. I think its $65 instructor rate an hour and $115 for the plane at a pay as you go rate. It is a pt 141 school so they prefer students who drop off big checks but its the only place I know to work in the bay that will give me full time workload of students and I like the 141 based curriculum. San Carlos is an amazing airport, plus Id heard its the only place they will give you 1500 msl for a bay tour otherwise they sit you at 2000 or above. The ingress egress procedures are a little wonky but once you go there a couple times its no biggie. This should help


http://www.sancarlosairport.org/?page_id=41
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Nope. Leave Palo Alto to the north, and they will put you into San Carlos Airspace. From there, you're treated like you're coming out of San Carlos.

I've had the San Carlos Tower controller ask me if I want high altitude (3500) or low altitude (1500) through SFO multiple times. If there is no wind, 1500 gives the better view, but puts you below the highest obstructions in the City (especially Sutro Tower). It's usually smoother at 3500, as that's above the southwest mountains.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Oh geez. I just mean that I personally wouldn't land / takeoff from there without at least paying a CFI for some ground time. Have you seen the weird rules for just Palo Alto? I've flown in and out of there many times with other pilots and sat right seat. The landing, takeoff, handoffs, etc. would fill up an entire kneeboard. Overwhelming. I went with a CFI recently to Napa which has multiple runways - I'm not as good as I should be - I mostly fall prey to the old "you get comfortable with your home airport."

Do I know this is bad? Yes. Right now it is what I can afford. Sorry to let you down.

And by mentoring I mean they meet with me when they have questions about a sectional or calling and getting a briefing or the ATIS or something. Other things I'd send them right back to their CFI of course.
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. PAO is no different from any other towered airport. There are a few local procedures, but there are everywhere, and Tower is quite patient about explaining them to newcomers. It's far from the weirdest I've seen (that honor goes to KVUO -- check that one out -- it's one of the very few nontowered Class D's).

PAO is full of student pilots, and Tower is quite used to dealing with people who don't understand the procedures or the terminology. "Unfamiliar" gets mileage. I even listened once to Tower explaining to a visiting pilot what "line up and wait" meant.

Didn't you do your dual cross country to Oakland? The procedures are slightly more intensive there (but not much). You just get two handoffs in Oakland airspace instead of one, and often get told to make a "base entry" before your runway assignment (it's a good bet it's 27L or 27R, though)! Oakland has two towers, the south one for 121 traffic and the north one for GA.

No one should be afraid of SFO Class B (well, except maybe student pilots). It's harder to avoid Class B than it is to transition it. Just have an alternate plan in case you hear the annoying "Remain clear of Class B" phrase from NorCal, like I did on Saturday (they gave me a nice low-altitude tour of Oakland instead -- over Cal, the Coliseum, 29 numbers and the San Mateo Bridge, all at 1400 or below).
 
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MAKG1 said:
Nope. Leave Palo Alto to the north, and they will put you into San Carlos Airspace. From there, you're treated like you're coming out of San Carlos.

I've had the San Carlos Tower controller ask me if I want high altitude (3500) or low altitude (1500) through SFO multiple times. If there is no wind, 1500 gives the better view, but puts you below the highest obstructions in the City (especially Sutro Tower). It's usually smoother at 3500, as that's above the southwest mountains.
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That was just what I was told by a NORCAL TRACON operator during a tour. It could because you transitioned through KSQL airspace that you can still get the low tour. Like I said, its just what I was told.
 
Mike/Kim: thank you so much for very valuable feedback.

$12K - ouch!! I may need to relocate or do a Kickstarter project. IMHO, this is definitely one of the top reasons why number of GA pilots is shrinking. The cost becomes too high barrier of an entry.

Mike: Are you a CFI? I have to check out Reid and Palo Alto. I am also talking to my pilot friend who did his in San Jose?

Kim: The two flights I took were to Lake Almanor (that is where I have a cabin) and it was an amazing experience. We flew at 8,500 clearing all the peaks, the view was just spectacular with zero turbulence. I will never forget that experience. Thanks for warnings regarding Mammoth. I am planning a skiing trip and hoping to take a plane with my buddy who is a pilot -- good to know all the variables involved, but are you basically saying that 172 practically can't make it there?
 
rs013 said:
$12K - ouch!! I may need to relocate or do a Kickstarter project. IMHO, this is definitely one of the top reasons why number of GA pilots is shrinking. The cost becomes too high barrier of an entry
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Its okay Have future you pay for it, thats what I did :yikes:
 
Kimberly,

I have flown out of KPAO for the last 7 years and the controllers are great, nothing to be scared of. I'm a new CFI, CFII and if I can help you overcome your fear of our airspace let me know.
 
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rklutts said:
Kimberly,

I have flown out of KPAO for the last 7 years and the controllers are great, nothing to be scared of. I'm a new CFI, CFII and if I can help you overcome your fear of our airspace let me know.
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Same with San Carlos, Ive flown in there with a poor knowledge of local procedures and they were happy to help, never be afraid to ask!
 
rs013 said:
Mike: Are you a CFI? I have to check out Reid and Palo Alto. I am also talking to my pilot friend who did his in San Jose?
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No. I'm a fairly low time private pilot with around 170 hours.

There is general aviation at San Jose, but I would expect it to be expensive and slow. Many people train out of "Class C" (medium sized) airports, but unlike Oakland, San Jose will have you sharing runways with jets. Scheduled commercial airlines get priority, so you're going to spend a lot of time waiting. Most rentals are charged for time the engine is running (Hobbs time), so that's expense for nothing. The airport is also VAST compared any of the other airports in the area, except for San Francisco, and there is a maze of closed taxiways. And the general aviation runway (11/29) has been closed for years and God only knows when and if it will reopen.

When you're flying "the pattern" (and you will do a lot of that), you'll need to fly the full length of the runway, turn around, and come back for a landing on the same runway (usually). There is a lot of difference between a 2300 foot runway (Palo Alto) and an 11000 foot runway (San Jose).

I think I may have met Ron at some point; his name sounds familiar. I've been to Advantage for a couple of lectures, but I trained out of Sundance around the corner.

I hate to say it -- I think Kim's $12K is in the ballpark. It may even be low if you take a while -- choose your CFI very carefully (cheapest is not always best).
 
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MAKG1 said:
No. I'm a fairly low time private pilot with around 170 hours.

When you're flying "the pattern" (and you will do a lot of that), you'll need to fly the full length of the runway, turn around, and come back for a landing on the same runway (usually). There is a lot of difference between a 2300 foot runway (Palo Alto) and an 11000 foot runway (San Jose).

I think I may have met Ron at some point; his name sounds familiar. I've been to Advantage for a couple of lectures, but I trained out of Sundance around the corner.
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I don't recall any requirement to fly the full length of the runway before turning crosswind, just 300' below the TPA is when I turn.

It's possible we meet, I have taught some at Sundance too, for a time I had an instrument student there before he bought into a Bonanza club.
 
MAKG1 said:
Lake Tahoe is a substantially easier target than Mammoth. You can do it in a 172 (but keep it at least a few hundred pounds under gross). Just watch the winds, read Sparky Imeson's book cover to cover, and take an instructor along for your first high altitude landing. The "numbers" are all the same (except South Lake Tahoe has a very high pattern altitude), but it looks different.

The problem with Mammoth is the 2000 AGL clearance over Yosemite. That puts you to 12,000 feet over Tioga Pass, or else you have to do a remote crossing south of the park. That's some serious altitude, and a 172 isn't going to get there on a warm summer day.

I haven't been to Lake Almanor, but it doesn't look all that hard. Most of the peaks are under 5000 feet, and the biggest ones are still under 8000. I may have to try that one out.
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If you ever decide to head to Almanor and wouldn't mind taking another 110hr pilot (I'll pitch in for fuel) let me know.. I'm between you and Lake Almanor.. At KOVE

www.signspeeweedesigns.com
 
rs013 said:
3. No material debt but will probably need at least 6 months to put aside $7.5K -- is that the average cost for certification on C172?
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Can't answer the average question, but look at it in terms of cash flow. No need to save up the entire amount first. You can start spending as soon as the normal cash flow will pay to completion. If you're doing well, that's today. If you expect you'll spend more per month than you would save, wait a shorter period of time then start spending.

Don't worry. Aviation will figure out how to take all of your money no matter how many spreadsheets you make. Just do it. ;)
 
rklutts said:
I don't recall any requirement to fly the full length of the runway before turning crosswind, just 300' below the TPA is when I turn.
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Not a requirement. In the AIM. AIM 4-3-3, steps 4 and 5 for both cases.

There are a handful of cases (like KHWD) where you have to turn crosswind early.
 
Yeah, HWD is a fun one to be downwind and see a 737 fly not far off going into Oakland.
 
rs013 said:
Mike/Kim: thank you so much for very valuable feedback.

$12K - ouch!! I may need to relocate or do a Kickstarter project. IMHO, this is definitely one of the top reasons why number of GA pilots is shrinking. The cost becomes too high barrier of an entry.

Mike: Are you a CFI? I have to check out Reid and Palo Alto. I am also talking to my pilot friend who did his in San Jose?

Kim: The two flights I took were to Lake Almanor (that is where I have a cabin) and it was an amazing experience. We flew at 8,500 clearing all the peaks, the view was just spectacular with zero turbulence. I will never forget that experience. Thanks for warnings regarding Mammoth. I am planning a skiing trip and hoping to take a plane with my buddy who is a pilot -- good to know all the variables involved, but are you basically saying that 172 practically can't make it there?
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Certainly not. What I'm saying is newcomers often have a dream destination or flight such as the mountains which differs from their "home drome" - we are pretty much training at sea level.

A new pilot could totally rent a 172 and fly to the mountains, we had 2 different 172's come with us. The thing is more comes into play - your weight and balance, fuel, route of flight, outs, knowledge of winds, weather and clouds.

For me, a fair weather Sunday pattern flying pilot, I would either need to hire a CFI and pay him to go with me, or take a mountain flying course, or go at least once as a passenger with an experienced pilot.

We pilots just don't want to see a new pilot get into an accident, that's all.

I saw 152's parked at Lake Tahoe airport for God's sake!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Certainly not. What I'm saying is newcomers often have a dream destination or flight such as the mountains which differs from their "home drome" - we are pretty much training at sea level.

A new pilot could totally rent a 172 and fly to the mountains, we had 2 different 172's come with us. The thing is more comes into play - your weight and balance, fuel, route of flight, outs, knowledge of winds, weather and clouds.

For me, a fair weather Sunday pattern flying pilot, I would either need to hire a CFI and pay him to go with me, or take a mountain flying course, or go at least once as a passenger with an experienced pilot.

We pilots just don't want to see a new pilot get into an accident, that's all.

I saw 152's parked at Lake Tahoe airport for God's sake!
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Well, there are mountains, and there are MOUNTAINS. Lake Tahoe is somewhere in between.

The issue for a 172 is not getting off the ground (as long as they are not overloaded and are flown correctly -- both common errors). At South Lake Tahoe, I can get a 172 off, loaded to max gross, to 50 feet in half the available runway at 30 deg C. That's about as hot as it ever gets there.

The issue is having some reserve climb power for when you get stuck in descending winds while trying to traverse a narrow, high pass. A 152 could probably make it over Donner Pass without much trouble even in summer, and over Echo Pass with some more difficulty (but there is a 3000 foot drop off on the lake side of the pass, so be careful there -- descending turbulent winds are likely if there is significant wind through the pass). But I wouldn't fly one around Squaw Peak.

Another issue is turbulence. It can get nasty at Lake Tahoe if the wind is blowing over the crest.

Tioga Pass is quite a bit higher than anything but the highest peaks at Lake Tahoe. And in winter, it is very remote, as the road is impassible. It would be a very bad place to have engine problems.
 
To the OP. Might wanna check out E16 (South County) also. Prices might be better than Bay Area. Also to save money fly an older plane in the 70's/80's. No need to fly fuel injected or glass cockpits during training. You can do that after.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, there are mountains, and there are MOUNTAINS. Lake Tahoe is somewhere in between.

The issue for a 172 is not getting off the ground (as long as they are not overloaded and are flown correctly -- both common errors). At South Lake Tahoe, I can get a 172 off, loaded to max gross, to 50 feet in half the available runway at 30 deg C. That's about as hot as it ever gets there.

The issue is having some reserve climb power for when you get stuck in descending winds while trying to traverse a narrow, high pass. A 152 could probably make it over Donner Pass without much trouble even in summer, and over Echo Pass with some more difficulty (but there is a 3000 foot drop off on the lake side of the pass, so be careful there -- descending turbulent winds are likely if there is significant wind through the pass). But I wouldn't fly one around Squaw Peak.

Another issue is turbulence. It can get nasty at Lake Tahoe if the wind is blowing over the crest.

Tioga Pass is quite a bit higher than anything but the highest peaks at Lake Tahoe. And in winter, it is very remote, as the road is impassible. It would be a very bad place to have engine problems.
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Exactly. Lots of things are POSSIBLE. Not all things are SMART. I recently flew over Lake Berryessa only to have a CFI back home ask why I flew direct to my destination airport. With time and talking to other pilots, you learn that planning slightly off route ways of getting somewhere may cost a few more minutes but then you have "outs" along most of your entire flight.
 
What's wrong with overflying Lake Berryessa? It's not that big of a lake.

A few thousand feet AGL will get you to shore gliding, so you don't have to ditch.

FYI, I was just there Saturday. Took a landing at Angwin. Nice place.

Sometimes the local CFIs don't seem to make much sense. E.g., "I Follow Roads" over Hwy 17 seems to be OK. There is NO FN WAY anyone is going to have an emergency landing on Hwy 17. The roadway is about 50 feet wide, lined with trees on both sides, criss-crossed with telephone wires, and there is a concrete barrier in the center. The wingspan of a 172 is 36 feet. The ridgetop tree farms would seem to be better targets (they are everywhere, relatively flat, and all the trees are uniform height).
 
MAKG1 said:
What's wrong with overflying Lake Berryessa? It's not that big of a lake.

A few thousand feet AGL will get you to shore gliding, so you don't have to ditch.

FYI, I was just there Saturday. Took a landing at Angwin. Nice place.

Sometimes the local CFIs don't seem to make much sense. E.g., "I Follow Roads" over Hwy 17 seems to be OK. There is NO FN WAY anyone is going to have an emergency landing on Hwy 17. The roadway is about 50 feet wide, lined with trees on both sides, criss-crossed with telephone wires, and there is a concrete barrier in the center. The wingspan of a 172 is 36 feet. The ridgetop tree farms would seem to be better targets (they are everywhere, relatively flat, and all the trees are uniform height).
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There are parts of it that have nowhere to land. I'm sure I was at the XC alt required (3500 going one way and 4500 the other or perhaps even 5500 and 4500 since I was in the 180hp all alone).

My point was not whether or not he makes sense, but that he is reminding me to simply not follow the magenta line of death. He wants to know that I put some thought into my flight planning rather than just hop in the plane and go.
 
Nothing wrong with a little 152, as long as weather conditions are ideal. A 152 at 8500 feet is about as high as you want to get...still can get you to tour Mt. Shasta.
 

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MAKG1 said:
What's wrong with overflying Lake Berryessa? It's not that big of a lake.

A few thousand feet AGL will get you to shore gliding, so you don't have to ditch.

FYI, I was just there Saturday. Took a landing at Angwin. Nice place.

Sometimes the local CFIs don't seem to make much sense. E.g., "I Follow Roads" over Hwy 17 seems to be OK. There is NO FN WAY anyone is going to have an emergency landing on Hwy 17. The roadway is about 50 feet wide, lined with trees on both sides, criss-crossed with telephone wires, and there is a concrete barrier in the center. The wingspan of a 172 is 36 feet. The ridgetop tree farms would seem to be better targets (they are everywhere, relatively flat, and all the trees are uniform height).
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Ive done it many times, Including flying north over Berryessa along the valley and up over to clear lake. Beautiful flight, plenty of country roads and some fields near small towns to ditch in. Berryessa's shoreline is pretty rough though, wouldnt be fun.
 
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