A goal of becoming a pilot

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rs013

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Rob13
Hello,

I found this forum and hope to get some thoughts on a best path to become a pilot.

My friend who is a pilot took me for couple of runs this past summer in Cessna 172. It was my very first time and it is impossible to describe what an amazing feeling that was.

Ever since those two flights, I can't wait to do it again and I made a goal to be able to fly myself. Taking off into another dimension, the control and the freedom is just a complete bliss to me.

Any thoughts on the most effective and economical way to go through certification would be greatly appreciated.
 
There's a lot of ways to do it. Just keep in mind that cheapest isn't always the best. Finding an instructor you get along with that you can learn from is far more critical than the money. You're trusting them to teach you real applicable survival skills.
 
Join a glider club and go from there.

You will learn excellent fundamental skills, have fun, save money and can easily do the power add-on later.

Here is a link to the SSA (soaring society of america) website, they have a "where can I fly" club locator.

http://www.ssa.org/sport/wheretofly.asp

Glider instructors also tend to be more "on it" then Cessna 172 type instructors :yes:
 
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Welcome to PoA. We like to encourage newcomers.

I have a few questions:
How old are you?
Where are you?
What sort of a job do you have?

I am an old lady who flies my own C-172 along with Hubby who is a CFI. We enjoy weekend flying to have lunch with friends and we like flying back and forth to California and Oklahoma to visit family. We are both programmers and live just far enough away from NYC to enjoy the countryside.
 
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First, Welcome to the Forums!!

Second, Adding to Peggy's questions

Financial: How much debt do you have or are servicing?
Financial: How long before you can save about $7500 for your training fund?
Mission: Is this mostly for recreational purposes? (local fun flying and food runs) Or are you going on longer distance trips. How frequently are you going to be flying.

Third, Nate is spot on about taking the time to find a quality instructor. There are many out there who are okay, but the exceptional ones are worth their hourly rate.
 
Welcome Rob!

The most economical way is probably either gliders or if you aren't set on certification and just want to fly, ultralights. If you go the certification route, there are two types of schools around, Part 141 schools have a fairly structured curriculum, stage checks, etc. during your training. Part 61 training is (a lot of the time) a smaller school or a person who is instructing on the side and has their own airplane. You can go either way. Learning to fly is definitely not inexpensive, but in my book is worth every penny!
 
rs013 said:
Hello,

I found this forum and hope to get some thoughts on a best path to become a pilot.

My friend who is a pilot took me for couple of runs this past summer in Cessna 172. It was my very first time and it is impossible to describe what an amazing feeling that was.

Ever since those two flights, I can't wait to do it again and I made a goal to be able to fly myself. Taking off into another dimension, the control and the freedom is just a complete bliss to me.

Any thoughts on the most effective and economical way to go through certification would be greatly appreciated.
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Talk to your buddy first, he may already know the best deal in the area.
 
Here's a free "Learn to Fly" book, ready to download as a .pdf. It will answer all of your questions plus provide all the initial knowledge needed to get started. Hope you enjoy it.
 
Wow, thanks to everyone for commenting. This is very encouraging. Here is more background on me:

1. Based in San Jose, CA
2. Technologist/Entrepreneur
3. No material debt but will probably need at least 6 months to put aside $7.5K -- is that the average cost for certification on C172?
4. Flying would be recreational at the beginning for sure. We have a cabin at Lake Almanor so I would love to fly there for example or Mammouth Lakes to do skiing.
5. My friend had quite a bad experience recently when signing up with flight club trying to get additional certification so that prompted me to seek suggestions here but I'll ask him how was his CFI and what would he recommend?

The one thing I am struggling with is how long will it take me to go through the certification program and how is the cost spread out, if at all? If I start with gliders, it seem it will be just that much longer to fly single engine.

Thanks for the book link. I will download and read through it.

Best,

Rob
 
rs013 said:
The one thing I am struggling with is how long will it take me to go through the certification program and how is the cost spread out, if at all?
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Length of time has variables such as scheduling around your life, aircraft and instructor availability, and weather.

Also add in frequency of training flights. 2-3 per week is optimum. Too far in between and you run the risk of skill leakage and part of each lesson is reacquisition.

FAA minimum under part 61 training is a total of 40 hours flying time (dual and solo). But finishing close to this mark is unusual and 50-55 is more typical. If each lesson averages 1.5, 50 hrs / 2 lessons per week is 17 weeks. Factor in 4 weeks for life and 3 for cancellations of one kind or another, that's about 6 months start to finish.

The above is a bit conservative. It can be done faster. But it isn't a race and there isn't any prize for doing it in the bare minimum.

The cost spread, as you put it, is why I advocate saving up the full amount n advance and avoiding the debt version. It gives you more time to make good decisions about your training. Including choice of training centers and instructors.

My $7500 number is a reasonable estimate, but it can vary depending on rental cost of aircraft and the instructor rate, number of hours it takes to complete, cost of pilot supplies and text books, etc. The final tally might be more, and its smart to have the full amount or 80% saved up before you start. Avoiding debt for this is also smart.

One item to avoid are schools that ask or all of your training money up front. That is a risky move and there are lots of stories of schools closing their doors and the students' money is gone, no refunds.

All schools should be okay with a pay as you go program. Others (like the one I used) had a "block rate" program that provided a reasonable discount if you set up an account with them and maintained a positive balance. For me, it was initially $1000 and it refilled when I drained it to $250. For that I got $20/hr off do the airplane, wet.

Keep asking questions. Lots of good knowledge on this board.

And find Kimberly. She is a pilot in the Bay Area who not that long ago got her license and might help you find some good training connections.
 
Another item to take care of is the medical end of things. Before you spend dime one on training, it helps to know with 100% confidence that you will pass the medical.

Here is a link to the medical application (also check http://MedXpress.faa.gov) . Read carefully questions 17 and 18 (especially 18) and let us know if any of this applies to you. And be dead honest. Lying on this application will kill your flying dreams.

Are there any past run-ins with the law? Any alcohol or drug related activities involving law enforcement?

All of this has bearing. If it applies to you, it isn't a show stopper, but requires additional legwork (and spending some money) before you apply for the medical.

And again, it's better that you know very early that you will,pass the medical than have 15 flight hours paid for and find out there is a major problem or a complete show stopper.
 
Rob If I can make a suggestion which I believe helped me enormously,I would consider getting your ground school studies and the required written exam out of the way before you begin your main practical flight training.

Apart from a couple of discovery flights to decide which flight school I was going to sign up with I hadn't done any other flight training. And the first thing my chosen flight school did was get me sorted with all my study material for home study before we even considered starting the actual flight training schedule, I studied as much as I was able between other commitments I had over a period of 3 months then when I felt ready I took the written exam.

With that completed I felt I had a much better understanding of what I was going to experience when I actually got in the airplane to begin my training.

Good luck with achieving your goal of becoming a pilot.
 
alland said:
Rob If I can make a suggestion which I believe helped me enormously,I would consider getting your ground school studies and the required written exam out of the way before you begin your main practical flight training.

Apart from a couple of discovery flights to decide which flight school I was going to sign up with I hadn't done any other flight training. And the first thing my chosen flight school did was get me sorted with all my study material for home study before we even considered starting the actual flight training schedule, I studied as much as I was able between other commitments I had over a period of 3 months then when I felt ready I took the written exam.

With that completed I felt I had a much better understanding of what I was going to experience when I actually got in the airplane to begin my training.

Good luck with achieving your goal of becoming a pilot.
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Starting ground school before lessons is a good idea however, I believe that flight training in conjunction with a ground school will yield a better understanding of the subject and better results on the written.
 
PBristolJr said:
Starting ground school before lessons is a good idea however, I believe that flight training in conjunction with a ground school will yield a better understanding of the subject and better results on the written.
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I can only speak from my personal experience, before my flight training began I was just an enthusiastic spectator as far as anything aviation was concerned, but once I had got my head in the books for a couple of months I really felt like I was getting some understanding of pilotage and the aircraft before I actually climbed aboard a trainer.

Although I have to say, I scraped through my written with only an average pass of 76%, maybe if I had done some practical training before the written I could have passed with a more respectable higher score.
 
rs013 said:
3. No material debt but will probably need at least 6 months to put aside $7.5K -- is that the average cost for certification on C172?

...

The one thing I am struggling with is how long will it take me to go through the certification program and how is the cost spread out, if at all? If I start with gliders, it seem it will be just that much longer to fly single engine.
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OK, many will suggest saving up and then getting the ticket. But then the question becomes - what do you do with it once you have it? I don't see the point of spending all of your flying budget to get a certificate that you can't afford to use - I would suggest at least thinking of a pay as you go system - or save some, then pay. Now, it does cost a bit more during the training since you have to pay an instructor and should be flying more often than you might otherwise - but if you had a monthly flying budget, then you would know you could continue beyond just getting the ticket.

However, if you can put aside more than $1000 / month - that's a decent amount of flying.

Getting a glider rating first would probably drag out the total time - but it depends on what you want to do with your ticket. A glider or little taildragger LSA can be more fun than a barrel of monkeys - but not so good for getting to that place two states away each weekend.

Medical - as was pointed out - know before you go. For nearly all people, it a total non issue (can you fog a mirror?). But for some, if you had a diagnosis or took a medication that is on the FAA naughty list some time in the past, or substance abuse issues, or... You don't want to fail the medical and fall into the catch-22 that locks you out of flying a light sport aircraft.
 
alland said:
I can only speak from my personal experience, before my flight training began I was just an enthusiastic spectator as far as anything aviation was concerned, but once I had got my head in the books for a couple of months I really felt like I was getting some understanding of pilotage and the aircraft before I actually climbed aboard a trainer.

Although I have to say, I scraped through my written with only an average pass of 76%, maybe if I had done some practical training before the written I could have passed with a more respectable higher score.
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I see it definitely helped make a yes/no decision whether you wanted to stick with it or not, I took my written right after my XC flights and scored a 98%.. damn you tri-color vasi's :redface:
 
PBristolJr said:
I see it definitely helped make a yes/no decision whether you wanted to stick with it or not, I took my written right after my XC flights and scored a 98%.. damn you tri-color vasi's :redface:
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98% !...now that's just plain showing off... :lol:
 
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I definitely begin with medical. Even though I expect zero issues, it removes the risk of being locked out before I begin the training.

As per the order of books vs. practical training, I can see an argument for both and you guys raised some very good points. I think for me getting at least some knowledge in order to have some basis for getting into the cockpit will make me more comfortable. However, then progressing in parallel seems to me like a best experience to keep it engaging and enjoyable, relating to real world stuff.

In regards to spreading the cost, I feel I need to be at least 1/2 there in saving before beginning in order to make sure I can finish and it does not start dragging because of funding issue that may otherwise come up.
 
rs013 said:
Wow, thanks to everyone for commenting. This is very encouraging. Here is more background on me:

1. Based in San Jose, CA
2. Technologist/Entrepreneur
3. No material debt but will probably need at least 6 months to put aside $7.5K -- is that the average cost for certification on C172?
4. Flying would be recreational at the beginning for sure. We have a cabin at Lake Almanor so I would love to fly there for example or Mammouth Lakes to do skiing.
5. My friend had quite a bad experience recently when signing up with flight club trying to get additional certification so that prompted me to seek suggestions here but I'll ask him how was his CFI and what would he recommend?

The one thing I am struggling with is how long will it take me to go through the certification program and how is the cost spread out, if at all? If I start with gliders, it seem it will be just that much longer to fly single engine.

Thanks for the book link. I will download and read through it.

Best,

Rob
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Be very careful wanting to do mountain flying right away. Going to Mammoth is tricky (I just did) and as a VFR pilot you could be stuck there or have plans to go and then cancel. One time I called a briefer to ask for winds forecast - 70 kts headwind! You would never get anywhere in a 172.

I fly the Bay Area. I probably spent $20,000 so I don't think $7,500 is enough in the San Jose location. I'd say closer to $12,000.

Kimberly
 
Edit: I went on a group montain fly out in the back seat of a plane with a gazillion horsepower more than a 172.

The lead CFI / teacher was in the plane with us. I learned a lot but winds were forecast to be light and variable and we still had turbulence. We landed at Mammoth (via Tioga Pass to see Yosemite) and then Lake Tahoe.

No oxygen, but you are getting up there so you may want to think about oxygen.
 
Example of why San Jose is expensive:

Note: The prices below do not include fuel surcharges, which can be up to 15% of the hourly rate. Also, expect to pay more at towered airports, especially places like Palo Alto, where you may be 5th for takeoff and sitting there in idle waiting for ATC to clear you. On the flip side, training so close to the Bravo will allow you to be very good on the radios. I trained at an untowered airport.

Santa Rosa - rent a 172 - $128 per hour (I'd rent a 150 or a 152 if I were you unless you are over 175lbs). Their 152 is $110 per hour. Their instructors cost $50 per hour. All these prices might be based on a "club" rate in which case you join for $150 and pay $25 per month in most places.

Petaluma - where I fly - rent a 172 - $98 per hour (I'd rent a 150 or a 152 if I were you unless you are over 175lbs). Their 150 is $80 per hour. The instructors are - I think - $49 per hour.

San Carlos - rent a 172 - $114 - 156 per hour (I'd rent a 150 or a 152 if I were you unless you are over 175lbs). Their 150 is $94 per hour. The instructors are - $50 - $75 per hour. This is just one of several schools.

Palo Alto - rent a 172 - $114 - 156 per hour (I'd rent a 150 or a 152 if I were you unless you are over 175lbs). Their 150 is $91 per hour. The instructors are - $50 - $75 per hour. This is just one of several schools.

San Jose (Reid Hillview) - rent a 172 - $105 - 139 per hour (This school doesn't have a 150). The instructors are - $50 per hour.
 
Lake Tahoe is a substantially easier target than Mammoth. You can do it in a 172 (but keep it at least a few hundred pounds under gross). Just watch the winds, read Sparky Imeson's book cover to cover, and take an instructor along for your first high altitude landing. The "numbers" are all the same (except South Lake Tahoe has a very high pattern altitude), but it looks different.

The problem with Mammoth is the 2000 AGL clearance over Yosemite. That puts you to 12,000 feet over Tioga Pass, or else you have to do a remote crossing south of the park. That's some serious altitude, and a 172 isn't going to get there on a warm summer day.

I haven't been to Lake Almanor, but it doesn't look all that hard. Most of the peaks are under 5000 feet, and the biggest ones are still under 8000. I may have to try that one out.

There are a ton of instructors at Reid and Palo Alto. Quality is all over the map, but your $7500 is probably not nearly sufficient. A 172 or Warrior rents locally for around $125/hour, and CFIs are in the neighborhood of $60/hour. That gets you to $7400, for an absolute minimum, and it doesn't count any ground training. It is not realistic to expect to finish in 40 hours, or even 60. >100 happens on occasion, 80 happens frequently.

You can get the cost down in a 152, but weight (yours and the instructor's) may prohibit that. They are also not much fun in light turbulence, whereas a 172 isn't too bad. A 172 is about the size of four folding chairs, 2x2. A 152 is like two folding chairs, side by side, with the legs cut off. Keep this in mind if you are thinking about "saving money" in a 152. It's CRAMPED in there, especially with two people. You will also be flying out to Livermore for most of your practicing (unless the Santa Cruz mountains are clear -- not often), so the slower speed of the 152 will eat into your savings there.

When the current weather is over, PM me, and I'll take you on a Bay Tour out of Palo Alto. Or you can take one of the local "discovery flights" and get a real lesson (which counts toward your 40 hours), including much more stick time than I'd be comfy with (and you can sit in the left seat like you're supposed to). Be warned -- the first time is an information firehose.

Reid will teach you obstructions, distractions ("There's a sale at Penny's" -- no, really!), REALLY close-by airspace, and a bit of winds. Palo alto will teach you lots of airspace, bird strike avoidance, and fairly-short-field ops (it's half as long as others in the area -- still plenty for a 172). There are tricks to beating the traffic. It's worst on really nice Saturday afternoons. It's often dead on Sundays, and on Saturday mornings (sufficiently early).
 
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$12K, wow!

Rob; Kim's a good person to link up with for the GA community in the Bay area. Over the past 2 years, she's made lots of good connections.

And if you ask nice, she'll even share with you her secret method for calculating remaining fuel using the cube root of the tail number of the aircraft you're operating.
 
AggieMike88 said:
And if you ask nice, she'll even share with you her secret method for calculating remaining fuel using the cube root of the tail number of the aircraft you're operating.
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OK, I got to hear this. A local 152 has an all-digit tail number -- if I remember right, it's 14235. The cube root of that is just about equal to the usable fuel on full tanks. And the 177RG only has two digits (and two letters). It's 26WG. Uh oh.
 
I flew at HWD and I live in the peninsula. I paid bout 10K for flight training. SQL and PAO are closer to me but the rental and CFI rates are A LOT! Also, I've heard of some clubs milking you're money. Some clubs not sending you for a checkride til you get to 100 hours. I didn't research south bay but the rates seem to be better than the peninsula. I'm not sure if you feel like driving but check out LVK and HWD. Good luck!
 
AggieMike88 said:
And find Kimberly. She is a pilot in the Bay Area who not that long ago got her license and might help you find some good training connections.
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Whoops just saw this.

Hello, Rob. My name is Kimberly. Money is tight because we are coming up on Christmas and I need a root canal but perhaps next year in January or February I can take you flying?

If you can drive to Petaluma it would be my pleasure. I can rent the 180 horsepower 172 so you can get more time in a 172. This one had a conversion done to increase the horsepower so it is a tiny bit faster.

I am mentoring three student pilots right now (taking them flying, answering questions via email, taking them to pilot meetings).

Feel free to call anytime with questions 7 0 7 7 9 9 6 3 1 4

Best,

Kimberly
 
MAKG1 said:
OK, I got to hear this. A local 152 has an all-digit tail number -- if I remember right, it's 14235. The cube root of that is just about equal to the usable fuel on full tanks. And the 177RG only has two digits (and two letters). It's 26WG. Uh oh.
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LOL he is talking about a funny pilot story where I was being an idiot. Since I already typed it up once, after my longest cross country ever where fuel was a concern, I will try to find it and paste it here. Just shows how much the pilots care about me, though, back at the flight school: they supported me while I was gone and even tracked me on flight aware without me knowing on the day I came back since the weather was getting nasty.
 
rs013 said:
Wow, thanks to everyone for commenting. This is very encouraging. Here is more background on me:

1. Based in San Jose, CA
2. Technologist/Entrepreneur
3. No material debt but will probably need at least 6 months to put aside $7.5K -- is that the average cost for certification on C172?
4. Flying would be recreational at the beginning for sure. We have a cabin at Lake Almanor so I would love to fly there for example or Mammouth Lakes to do skiing.
5. My friend had quite a bad experience recently when signing up with flight club trying to get additional certification so that prompted me to seek suggestions here but I'll ask him how was his CFI and what would he recommend?

The one thing I am struggling with is how long will it take me to go through the certification program and how is the cost spread out, if at all? If I start with gliders, it seem it will be just that much longer to fly single engine.

Thanks for the book link. I will download and read through it.

Best,

Rob
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KPAO (the airport in Palo Alto) has many flight instructors to choose from.
 
And FYI, gliders don't work in the Bay Area unless you want to drive to Byron or Hollister. Those are the nearest outfits. SFO airspace is a massive problem for that. You have to cross the Bay below 2500 at the Dumbarton Bridge, down to below 1500 just south of the San Mateo Bridge.
 
MAKG1 said:
You can get the cost down in a 152, but weight (yours and the instructor's) may prohibit that. They are also not much fun in light turbulence, whereas a 172 isn't too bad. A 172 is about the size of four folding chairs, 2x2. A 152 is like two folding chairs, side by side, with the legs cut off. Keep this in mind if you are thinking about "saving money" in a 152. It's CRAMPED in there, especially with two people.
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You must have flown a lot smaller 150/152 than I did.
 
80 for 152 is cheap! my school charges 100.00 if i even continue there i may just join the club its 69 an hour there with an upfront of 800 and then 35 a month. but in the long run cheaper than school and i have access to better planes.. we'll see by the time i am done with my ground training.
 
marcoseddi said:
80 for 152 is cheap! my school charges 100.00 if i even continue there i may just join the club its 69 an hour there with an upfront of 800 and then 35 a month. but in the long run cheaper than school and i have access to better planes.. we'll see by the time i am done with my ground training.
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The only reason I still fly is because I rent the $80 plane as often as I can.

I splurge on the $98 one if the person I'm flying with is tall or not tiny. Or if there is more than one person. Or luggage.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You must have flown a lot smaller 150/152 than I did.
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Or you're just a smaller guy.

I'm not THAT tall (just 6'3), but with the seat all the way back, I still had my shins against the bottom of the instrument panel with my feet on the brakes. I could clear the yoke, but there was no possibility of using a kneeboard.
 
MAKG1 said:
Or you're just a smaller guy.

I'm not THAT tall (just 6'3), but with the seat all the way back, I still had my shins against the bottom of the instrument panel with my feet on the brakes. I could clear the yoke, but there was no possibility of using a kneeboard.
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OK, you have 2 1/2 inches on me. And I've never owned a kneeboard.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Another Bay Area pilot - !

I work / live in / around Sausalito. Where are you? Where did you train? When you become a CFI what airport do you hope to teach out of?
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Im in south san francisco, plan on getting rated in Febuaray and work out of the International School at San Carlos. I did all my training out of KSAC at a place called Skywalk.
 
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