A Gastons Oops - Wet Field

The lawyers call it res ipsa loqitor; the facts speak for themselves.

By coincidence, I rode with a guy (Dr. Robert Cobb) on his first trip to Gaston's in his new Cherokee 180, and saw first-hand what can happen to a pilot the first time into that runway. It was shorter then, and if I hadn't grabbed and pushed, we would have stalled in from about tree-top height. I had the same credentials he did at the time VFR-PPL, but had grown up flying out of short airports, some of which were grass (mostly dirt, but a few blades here and there). AJ got most of it right, and it's easy to understand how a new guy could get things messed up at the end. Glad it was only a wingtip and a brief newspaper article.
FlyNE said:
I agree.



I'm not saying that your conclusions are wrong, I'm saying that your facts leading to them were wrong. In fairness to AJ, he's handling this well. The least that we can do is accurately report on what he's said regarding the incident and believe him. I don't think he's given us any indication that he's hiding anything or fudging any facts to make himself sound less at fault. You saying that he went over the trees is in direct conflict to what he said and I was just pointing that out for the benefit of others that may be following this thread but may be unable to access his original statements.
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I have had my two worst landings, ever, in 30 years of flying, at Gastons! Something about it messes witcha mind!
Well, there was that one on my private checkride but that's another story.
Thanks for the chance to learn, OP.
 
Some of them so bad you had to fly home straight-legged?

Let'sgoflying! said:
I have had my two worst landings, ever, in 30 years of flying, at Gastons! Something about it messes witcha mind!
Well, there was that one on my private checkride but that's another story.
Thanks for the chance to learn, OP.
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wabower said:
Some of them so bad you had to fly home straight-legged?
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The sad and painful event of which you speak was a power pack seal and valve failure related to age and wear....I think if I had damaged the gear itself I would have been hitch-hiking home! (hmm pleasant visions of riding in a shiny 180...)
 
I would have loved the company. That was the trip where they assured me the new autopilot was "good to go" only to find that it wasn't quite.

Let'sgoflying! said:
The sad and painful event of which you speak was a power pack seal and valve failure related to age and wear....I think if I had damaged the gear itself I would have been hitch-hiking home! (hmm pleasant visions of riding in a shiny 180...)
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wabower said:
I would have loved the company. That was the trip where they assured me the new autopilot was "good to go" only to find that it wasn't quite.
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Now Wayne, it *was* good to go - just not good to, like, fly the airplane.
 
I stopped for gas at Greeneville, hoped you would still be at the hangar when I got home, but you had vamoosed. I needed somebody to help me give the autopilot a good cussing.

SCCutler said:
Now Wayne, it *was* good to go - just not good to, like, fly the airplane.
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It sounds to me likd AJ was well prepared and everything would have worked out well if the runway hadn't been so wet. Who woulda thunk there would have been 4-1/2 inches of rain there while not in surrounding areas? There is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here, but we should cut him some slack. Be honest, it could have happended to any of us.
 
somorris said:
Be honest, it could have happened to any of us.
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so true..those who chastize and condemn - how will they feel when they have their incident? Will they be as hard on themselves? Would that make any difference?
Do your honest best. Learn from mistakes. Help others in a positive manner!
 
somorris said:
It sounds to me likd AJ was well prepared and everything would have worked out well if the runway hadn't been so wet. Who woulda thunk there would have been 4-1/2 inches of rain there while not in surrounding areas? There is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here, but we should cut him some slack. Be honest, it could have happended to any of us.
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IMO, The rain wasn't the primary cause of the incident. Realizing that is important.
Let's Go Flying said:
Learn from mistakes.
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That .. is the important part. So far I haven't seen that, at least based on the info in this thread.

I'm not trying to be harsh -- All I'm say'n is that the rain was not the primary issue. It may have contributed but that is it.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
I have had my two worst landings, ever, in 30 years of flying, at Gastons! Something about it messes witcha mind!
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Dang, I missed those, Dave! Do you happen to have those on video? :D

Let'sgoflying! said:
Well, there was that one on my private checkride but that's another story.
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When do we get to hear that one??? Sounds like a good story! :yes:
 
The most valuable thing you can do at Gaston's is to plan your approach so you are set up to touch down, at appropriate speed, in the first part of the runway. In most instances, this means you should fly through the "goal posts," which is at first intimidating, but once done, becomes very reassuring, because then you touch down early, roll out without touching the brakes, and have to throttle-up to get to parking.

If you go over the trees, you'd best be ready to slip a little to dump some altitude.

Between the trees is the way.
 
If you touch down with 3150' remaining like you should that runway could be teflon coated and you would stop in time. Did I read correctly that the dip launched him - or tried to - airborne again? Are we talking the hump/dip that is only 1000' or so from the pavement at the SW end? If that is the dip that caused the problem the rain/water is less than 1% of a contributing factor.
 
EdFred said:
If you touch down with 3150' remaining like you should that runway could be teflon coated and you would stop in time. Did I read correctly that the dip launched him - or tried to - airborne again? Are we talking the hump/dip that is only 1000' or so from the pavement at the SW end? If that is the dip that caused the problem the rain/water is less than 1% of a contributing factor.
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SCCutler said:
The most valuable thing you can do at Gaston's is to plan your approach so you are set up to touch down, at appropriate speed, in the first part of the runway. In most instances, this means you should fly through the "goal posts," which is at first intimidating, but once done, becomes very reassuring, because then you touch down early, roll out without touching the brakes, and have to throttle-up to get to parking.



If you go over the trees, you'd best be ready to slip a little to dump some altitude.

Between the trees is the way.
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Now we're getting somewhere. Finally.
 
SCCutler said:
The most valuable thing you can do at Gaston's is to plan your approach so you are set up to touch down, at appropriate speed, in the first part of the runway. In most instances, this means you should fly through the "goal posts," which is at first intimidating, but once done, becomes very reassuring, because then you touch down early, roll out without touching the brakes, and have to throttle-up to get to parking.

If you go over the trees, you'd best be ready to slip a little to dump some altitude.

Between the trees is the way.
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That's exactly correct. The first time I landed at 3m0 I not only came in (just) above the "goalposts" I actually flew a long final over the ridge NE of the field. And that meant I was already descending fairly steeply and carrying a little excess speed so as you recommend, I entered a steep slip immediately after passing the goalpost trees quickly losing the excess speed and altitude and managed to touch down early enough to require little braking and to achieve taxi speed way before the parking area on the right.

Now, I'll admit that a Baron is a lot easier to slow down and it can be made to sink like the proverbial rock, neither of which can be said of a Mooney. OTOH, the stall and landing speed of a Baron is over 25% faster than a Mooney giving it almost 60% more momentum to dissipate. IOW I believe you can overfly those intimidating goalpost trees and still land safely but an aggressive slip is the right "approach" (couldn't resist the pun) in something as slippery as a Mooney. And flying a more "normal" profile by going between those trees while aiming just short of the end would work at least as well without the gyrations of a big slip on short final.

There is one thing I'm still wondering about AJ's landing though. AJ, you've stated that you flew between the trees and were "on speed" as you made your final approach yet I firmly believe that had you truly done that, you would have come to a complete stop at least a few hundred yards short of the road without any braking at all, even if you were landing on ice. Now, I have no doubt that you are being truthful in that you believe you did all that but the evidence seems to indicate that you didn't. Alternatively you could have made the perfect approach and then failed to close the throttle in a timely manner or perhaps the trees you flew between weren't the "goalposts" we've been refering to but rather the trees beyond that alongside the actual runway. I think it may be well worth the effort of carefully examining your memory of the approach and landing for clues as to what went wrong as I'm very certain (like Jesse) that the wet ground and hump were at most minor contributors to the overshoot. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just wanting you to find the real cause so you can avoid something similar in the future. You might watch Jesse's 3m0 landing video as I think he point's out the trees in question (if not one of us can give you the timestamp in the video where those trees are apparent). Then try to match that image with your memory's account of your approach. I think you also already mentioned the airspeed you intended and/or achieved on short final but I'd like to hear from you again regarding where/when you know you were at that speed and what the speed was so we can help you determine if excess speed at touchdown was a factor. Your actual gross weight would help in this analysis as well.

You've already learned (in all too painful a manner) how slippery wet grass can be, let's see what else you can learn from this.
 
gismo said:
Keep in mind that I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just wanting you to find the real cause so you can avoid something similar in the future.
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Lance, you make a very good point. I think that's what we are all trying to do to help AJ. :)

BTW, I just got the Gaston's newsletter in an email last night and followed the link and saw there were several videos on YouTube of flying at Gaston's. That led me to your landing in the Baron at Gaston's. Nice landing. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBquq-XPc4E&NR=1
 
Diana said:
Lance, you make a very good point. I think that's what we are all trying to do to help AJ. :)

BTW, I just got the Gaston's newsletter in an email last night and followed the link and saw there were several videos on YouTube of flying at Gaston's. That led me to your landing in the Baron at Gaston's. Nice landing. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBquq-XPc4E&NR=1
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Thanks, of course that wasn't my first one.:D
 
Not sure if this was posted on the red board -- but I tried to do a decent job at explaining a Gastons approach and landing. It even has Jim Gaston's approval.
 
jesse said:
Not sure if this was posted on the red board -- but I tried to do a decent job at explaining a Gastons approach and landing. It even has Jim Gaston's approval.
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I think Diana linked to it over there.
 
curious, was it linked before or after the incident?
 
jesse said:
curious, was it linked before or after the incident?
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Both. Brian (Qbynewbie) posted links to the thread you started with your video, and to two other threads here with videos, about 2 days before AJ landed there.
 
AJ:

I hope you give the full briefing every time you fly, from now on, and that you never need it again.

One time not too long ago, I was in a bit of a hurry, and did not comply with my "verify door latched" protocol when leaving T82; after all, Celia always locks the door properly. But when we were descending in to the DFW terminal area, my airspeed up a bit, the door schlooped open. Noisy, yes, dangerous, no.
 
I think you got by cheaper than this guy:

DSCF0554.jpg
 
Steve said:
I think you got by cheaper than this guy:

DSCF0554.jpg
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Oh my! That was this year, too, if the folder name "Gastons09" means anything. The way the prop is bent on both tips... did he try to taxi away while still tied down at the wings and tail??
 
The information I have is this occurred the week after the "fly-in" and involved a collapsed nose gear after touchdown.

Someone said "blame it on the moles"... ;)

TangoWhiskey said:
Oh my! That was this year, too, if the folder name "Gastons09" means anything. The way the prop is bent on both tips... did he try to taxi away while still tied down at the wings and tail??
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Steve said:
The information I have is this occurred the week after the "fly-in" and involved a collapsed nose gear after touchdown.

Someone said "blame it on the moles"... ;)
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So why the heck would you tie it down after that?
 
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