A Gastons Oops - Wet Field

That's what happens when you try to put a Mooney on grass. ;)
 
surprising it took that long for that accident to happen. at least there were no blue haired ladies practicing fly fishing off the end of the runway.
 
The pilot was AJ, who had been asking for advice on the red board for a week or so. His first time on grass and trying to learn what he needed to know to avoid crunching his new plane. Looks like he almost made it.
 
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Yup, and a new pilot. But by all indications, a good guy who takes flying seriously and wants to keep learning and who tries to fly safely. Unfortunately, his family was in the plane with him, too.
 
Yeah. I was praying that it wasn't him. I don't think the topic of wet runways ever came up in the discussions. The thread is here. I'm just glad no one was injured. Hope AJ isn't frightened off from flying!
 
A runway with an over-run occupied but unknowing pedistrians and vehicles is never good. That said -- there is plenty of room. If an accident happens it is not the fault of the airport, but of the pilot. Anyone know if the airplane hit the SUV on the road after the runway or was the SUV in the runway area?

I almost watched an airplane hit a SUV there. Thankfully the SUV driver started up and moved out of the way at the last moment.
 
I admit that I question the wisdom of having an active road cross an active runway. Yes, it should be possible to stop before the road, bt we've seen planes cross the road before! I guess I've always attributed it to pilots who weren't paying attention to what they were doing. I don't think that's the case in this instance!
 
gprellwitz said:
I admit that I question the wisdom of having an active road cross an active runway. Yes, it should be possible to stop before the road, bt we've seen planes cross the road before! I guess I've always attributed it to pilots who weren't paying attention to what they were doing. I don't think that's the case in this instance!
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It isn't the best setup -- but it is the configuration. IMO, it's something you're aware of when you go into there. I mark the point visually, 1/3 of the runway, and If I'm not down and de-accelerating by that point I'm out of there. Once or twice I extended my touchdown to somewhere past mid-field to accomodate another airplane. My technique for that is to act as if I'm going to land in the first few hundred feet and then roll in the power before touchdown. That way I consider myself in a stable position to continue down the runway. The touchdown can be within a few feet with the chop of power.

My question remains though. Was it an over-run? It simply isn't possible for an airplane, even if the runway is wet, to slide that far. If the 1/3 rule was used there is no way it'd take 2/3s of the runway to stop.

I really can't comment further though without knowing the circumstances. Did the airplane over-run or did a SUV just get onto the runway in the way?
 
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Diana said:
The SUV was on the road.
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Thanks Diana, that is where a SUV should be, if there is to be a SUV there :) That isn't where an airplane should be.

That is just the configuration of Gastons -- it's been that way forever -- it is visible from the air. The entire final is visible including the road at the end throughout the whole process. If you go off the end, it wasn't the airport, or the wet runway, you landed too far with more energy than traction. It sucks, but I wouldn't want Gastons to change a thing.

I wish more people would pick a point for landing that included plenty of time to stop and be aware of it throughout the landing process. If this were done more often these incidents could be avoided.
 
It works like this. You build a 2000 foot strip. You hope that somebody doesn't do something foolish to cause you grief. Your rates go up.

So you make it 2500. That encourages someone else with even less aviation maturity to come in there. Your rates go up again.

So you make it 3200. And somebody hits an SUV.

What really gets me is going to the Red Board (or any board for that matter) for advice. Newbie pilots need to get with a CFI who does grass!!!!! (unless of course, they learned on grass, e.g, home port was grass). The CFI is now looking very, very cheap by comparison.
 
bbchien said:
It works like this. You build a 2000 foot strip. You hope that somebody doesn't do something foolish to cause you grief. Your rates go up.

So you make it 2500. That encourages someone else with even less aviation maturity to come in there. Your rates go up again.

So you make it 3200. And somebody hits an SUV.

What really gets me is going to the Red Board (or any board for that matter) for advice. Newbie pilots need to get with a CFI who does grass!!!!! (unless of course, they learned on grass, e.g, home port was grass). The CFI is now looking very, very cheap by comparison.
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I agree Bruce .. and it really comes down to the fact that you have to be *AWARE* in your landing phase and not concentrating so much on the flare while ignoring your envionment. I really wish people would encode situational awareness during landing into pilots. Too few of instructors focus on that, pilots over-focus on their flare, zone out, and miss the fact that they have a serious problem with their position and energy.
 
Arggh.

In all of my landings at Gaston's I have never really *needed* to use the brakes- except my very first one, when I came in straight-in, over the trees, instead of through the goals. I feel terrible for AJ, but I am happy that neither he nor anyone on the ground were hurt.

Now, I feel more obliged than ever to lure him out to the Fly-In, and see if we can throw some serious mentoring his way. Gosh knows, the various better-than-me pilots I have met there have been of huge benefit to me in developing my skills.
 
Is it possible to get a PPL without landing on grass? I was fortunate to learn at a rural strip. My CFI had the permission to use private grass strips owned by his farmer students thus I had a lot of actual grass / soft / short field exposure. I suspect many pilots are not so fortunate.
 
snowbird said:
Is it possible to get a PPL without landing on grass?
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It's not in the PTS, but during my training I was lucky enough to have an instructor who had me land at one. Then later, during a stage check, I was diverted to the same grass strip. Some people are scared of them but to be honest, I like them a lot. However, i realize that not all grass strips are equal, and that recent precipitation plays a huge factor in their condition.
 
snowbird said:
Is it possible to get a PPL without landing on grass? I was fortunate to learn at a rural strip. My CFI had the permission to use private grass strips owned by his farmer students thus I had a lot of actual grass / soft / short field exposure. I suspect many pilots are not so fortunate.
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It's all too possible. Many places don't even allow their planes to be taken to grass strips. I'm lucky that my place will allow you to go on grass after obtaining permission. Obviously, given the number of times I've been to Gaston's and 6Y9, they will give permission! :) Yet I never did grass until after I had my PPL and was flying around New Zealand for a week based at a grass strip.
 
snowbird said:
Is it possible to get a PPL without landing on grass? I was fortunate to learn at a rural strip. My CFI had the permission to use private grass strips owned by his farmer students thus I had a lot of actual grass / soft / short field exposure. I suspect many pilots are not so fortunate.
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Not only possible...these days it's likely. As has been said, most rental places don't even allow their airplanes to touch grass...let alone train on it. Even with a CFI...
 
I think that a significant percentage of CFIs have no experience on grass.
 
I don't want to harp on AJ, in fact, I'd like to see him come to POA because he seems like he'd fit right in, but I wonder how you can possibly overrun Gastons. I was scared the first time I landed at Gastons because it was my first grass experience too, but as daunting as it seemed, I was actually surprised at how quickly I landed and slowed down there.....much easier deceleration on grass vs. Pavement.

Id really be interested to see what happened. Seems everytime I landed, I had to actually add power to get to the tiedown area.

Ed actually landed more than 1/2 down the runway once to prove a point.
 
SkyHog said:
I don't want to harp on AJ, in fact, I'd like to see him come to POA because he seems like he'd fit right in
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I certainly agree!
SkyHog said:
Id really be interested to see what happened. Seems everytime I landed, I had to actually add power to get to the tiedown area.
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The various POHs seem to indicate that you need to increase the landing distance when landing on grass. My general sense, however, has always been that the planes stop as quickly or even more quickly on grass.
 
On pavement, you can really brake quickly if you absolutely have to. On grass, that's not going to be as effective. I also suspect that the recommendations for allowing longer distances for grass are there to allow for differing conditions. Even so-called "dry" grass can still be fairly slippery from dew several hours after dawn.
 
snowbird said:
Is it possible to get a PPL without landing on grass? I was fortunate to learn at a rural strip. My CFI had the permission to use private grass strips owned by his farmer students thus I had a lot of actual grass / soft / short field exposure. I suspect many pilots are not so fortunate.
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Yes. I only landed on grass once and that was because I specifically asked my instructor to let me do it. None of the rentals would be allowed to land on grass. Since I owned my own plane, it was OK.
 
My instructor did grass with me out at Keller Bothers in Lebanon County. This is when I was learning at LNS in a C-152. I really enjoyed the soft field practice on a real soft field and think it should be taught as standard practice.
 
I owned my own airplane and still never made a training flight to a grass strip. Didn't know any better at the time, or I would have insisted. Braking isn't that bad, and 3200 is plenty long. Like everyone is saying, he came in too long on the wrong runway on the wrong day. Might just have been the fresh lamination on his PPL that he didn't see what was developing.

That said, he only pranged the airplane a little bit. The car could probably get hurt worse colliding with a Yugo. He wasn't that far off. Not even worth a news story.
 
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Grass ops at Farmer's Pride were SOP where I learned to fly (LNS). About half my PP checkride landing/takeoffs were at Farmer's Pride.

There are additional training points about soft field ops that only landing and taking off can inculcate.
 
qbynewbie said:
On pavement, you can really brake quickly if you absolutely have to. On grass, that's not going to be as effective. I also suspect that the recommendations for allowing longer distances for grass are there to allow for differing conditions. Even so-called "dry" grass can still be fairly slippery from dew several hours after dawn.
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You don't get the traction that you can get on pavement if you are on the brakes. But on the bright side, if you don't touch down quite straight, the mains will slip a little more and you don't have to be quite as quick to avoid a ground loop (assuming you are flying on conventional gear)
 
Anthony said:
My instructor did grass with me out at Keller Bothers in Lebanon County. This is when I was learning at LNS in a C-152. I really enjoyed the soft field practice on a real soft field and think it should be taught as standard practice.
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I flew into Keller Bros as well! Did he make you fly Reigle, too?
 
dmccormack said:
I flew into Keller Bros as well! Did he make you fly Reigle, too?
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Yes, I had to do touch and goes at Reigle. 1,900 ft. as you know. The previous owner of my Tiger was based there with it.
 
If the pavement had as much water as the pilot reported for the grass, the results may have been about the same.
qbynewbie said:
On pavement, you can really brake quickly if you absolutely have to. On grass, that's not going to be as effective. I also suspect that the recommendations for allowing longer distances for grass are there to allow for differing conditions. Even so-called "dry" grass can still be fairly slippery from dew several hours after dawn.
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Still bad place for a road without even signs that say "look before moving".
 
Anthony said:
My instructor did grass with me out at Keller Bothers in Lebanon County. This is when I was learning at LNS in a C-152. I really enjoyed the soft field practice on a real soft field and think it should be taught as standard practice.
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dmccormack said:
Grass ops at Farmer's Pride were SOP where I learned to fly (LNS). About half my PP checkride landing/takeoffs were at Farmer's Pride.
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This is like a trip down memory lane! I loved flying around Pennsylvania! My Citabria brothers took me on a grass strip tour in PA, and we landed at Keller Brothers...beautiful place!

And then I got weathered in at Farmer's Pride after leaving Keller Brothers and Ernie let me put my airplane in his hangar...what a neat guy! I was thinking about sleeping in that little terminal building on the field, but someone gave me a ride to a motel instead.
 

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Landing on turf! I hadn't done it since primary training, but my first CFI had me do quite a bit of TOL practice on "unimproved" surfaces in an old, beat-up, barely airworthy 150 (after soloing I decided it really WAS unairworthy and switched FBOs, sadly it was the only airplane he had reliable access to). I remember Merillat (34G) which advertised fuel 24/7 but I never saw the pumps, and Indian Creek Ranch (56G?) a deserted little strip out in the middle of nowhere about a couple miles from Lake Huron. We also landed a number of times on 18/36 at New Haven (57D, now Ray Community) which is part paved but very narrow, as in 25 feet, and part bumpy turf. I really enjoyed those flights, and Greg was a great teacher. But after getting my private I never dared again to go into one of those places, until a couple of weeks ago I followed another pilot and landed on 18 at Owosso (KRNP). I follow Bruce's rule of thumb and only land on grass if I've walked the runway or talked to someone who knows the current conditions. But that was a good decision that day (for me, maybe not the other pilot!) since the wind was straight out of the south and pretty stiff, and the paved runway is 10/28. I'd forgotten how easy and smooth landing on grass was, without the rising air coming off of hot pavement.

I'd love to go back to Indian Creek someday, but the description in the Michigan Airport Directory is a little daunting: rwy 18-36 & 9-27 surf. rough with ireg. mowing. It's also unattended. They do give a number to call for conditions though, so maybe I'll give it a try someday.
 
SkyHog said:
I don't want to harp on AJ, in fact, I'd like to see him come to POA because he seems like he'd fit right in, but I wonder how you can possibly overrun Gastons. I was scared the first time I landed at Gastons because it was my first grass experience too, but as daunting as it seemed, I was actually surprised at how quickly I landed and slowed down there.....much easier deceleration on grass vs. Pavement.

Id really be interested to see what happened. Seems everytime I landed, I had to actually add power to get to the tiedown area.

Ed actually landed more than 1/2 down the runway once to prove a point.
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Well think about it ya know how they say an accident is made up of several links in a chain. I don't know that all of these factors existed but if they did I can see it happening

1) Realtivley New PP
2) No Grass experience
3) A bit nervous perhaps about the flight
4) Stayed high perhaps if he was worried about terrain on the ridge and those darn power lines near the base or curve in the river
5) one way in one way out with perhaps a tail wind on landing
6) perhaps a bit high on final if concerned about the goal posts
7) A bit extra speed in a quick plane
8) Wet Grass

Extra speed landing long and slip sliding a way on wet grass w/ locked up brakes might as well have skiis. Again Not saying thats what happened but just showing how it could.
 
wabower said:
If the pavement had as much water as the pilot reported for the grass, the results may have been about the same.
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If you made a reasonable landing -- water simply could not cause you to over-run in a Mooney. OTOH, too much water could cause a loss of directional control.
 
tdager said:
Still bad place for a road without even signs that say "look before moving".
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The road and grass beyond it aren't really supposed to be part of the runway, and AFaIK the 3200 ft length doesn't include it. Like everyone said, the runway is long enough that a landing should be easy unless there's a big tailwind. Even with a lot of water I can't imagine getting anywhere near the road on landing. IME the water makes takeoff's more "interesting" but really shouldn't affect landing a Mooney (assuming you can keep the plane going straight since you never need brakes anyway. If anything, I'd expect the soggy conditions to slow the plane faster than dry baked ground.

I'd also like to comment on the "4-1/2 inches of water on the runway". Although since I wasn't there I can't be absolutely certain but based on prior experience at 3m0, it seems almost impossible to me that there was any standing water on the NE half of the runway. I can believe that it was wet and slippery, and that there were deep puddles about 100-400 ft from the SW end but that's about it unless the river overflowed it's banks.
 
I could see how lack of actual experience on shorter-than-most-paved strips could cause a problem at Gaston's. My first time there this year, I came in high and hot in the 172. Luckily, I had enough experience with short strips to realize that I wasn't going to be able to save it without overrunning the end, so I went around.

I could see how an inexperienced pilot in that situation could have tried to 'force' it in because it would have easily been salvageable on most paved runways.

Just another way to say - there is no substitute for actual practice/experience.
 
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