A frustrated PPL student

[bobmrg]

I will try to explain it to him next time I see him

Make sure that your instructor knows that s/he is not to touch the controls unless the safety of flight is in question or you are going instructor shopping. Being off by 100 feet or leveling off too high is not such a situation unless s/he realizes what is happening and calmly advises you of the appropriate action and gives you time to correct. Very few things in aviation require immediate action.

Bob Gardner

 

[bobmrg]

Busting altitudes in the SFRA/B-space can have serious consequences for the PIC, i.e., the instructor. Not trying to justify this instructor's specific actions, but just sayin'...

I've never flown in the SFRA, so I am talking off the top of my head, but being off by 100' and correcting will bring down the wrath of the controllers? I didn't read into the OP that he was zooming through his assigned altitude with no effort to level off being made....maybe it's that darn speed reading that is getting to me again.

Bob Gardner

 

[Concorde]

I am 34 by the way so that might also be a factor.


Yes, You are too young !

 

[bobmrg]

Post script: Have your instructor read the section titled "Positive Exchange of Flight Controls" in the front of the Practical Test Standard. It includes this sentence: "A positive three-step process in the exchange of flight controls is a proven procedure and one that is strongly recommended."

Bob Gardner

 

[White Bird]

I am 34 by the way so that might also be a factor.


Yes, You are too young !

LOL

 

[LDJones]

Busting altitudes in the SFRA/B-space can have serious consequences for the PIC, i.e., the instructor. Not trying to justify this instructor's specific actions, but just sayin'...

But the instructor should be leaving a margin for error within the SFRA and coaching him through the level-out.

 

[John Baker]

Thank you for the advice man!!

Your welcome.

I hope I was of some help.

As a side note regarding addressing someone much older than yourself, the correct way of doing it is either by saying "Sir" or, in my case "John" or "Mr. Baker."

I am not telling you this because I am an old A hole, I'm telling you this so that you will get into the habit before your check ride. Addressing your designated examiner by calling him "man", could go against you in a very big way.

Good manners and respect for your elders will take you a whole lot further in aviation, and your life, than trying to make your elders your peers.

If you want to have some fun, start referring to your younger flight instructor as "Sir", watch the attitude change.

There, you just got some more help.

-John

 

[bflynn]

I've never flown in the SFRA, so I am talking off the top of my head, but being off by 100' and correcting will bring down the wrath of the controllers? I didn't read into the OP that he was zooming through his assigned altitude with no effort to level off being made....maybe it's that darn speed reading that is getting to me again.

Bob Gardner

Being off by more than 200' and not correcting might bring the jets.

It sounds to me like the instructor just need to verbalize a little. The push is probably intended as a gentle reminder that you need to pay attention to altitude and never get more than 100' off. That's standard you'll get to before you do your private and in about 20 hours or so you'll be thanking him for being strict with it now. You can't learn to go 200' off now and think you're going to unlearn it later.

Remember that every pilot here has been where you are. We were all frustrated with learning and wondering if we could do it. Nobody has ever failed to learn to fly, some people just quit first.

 

[White Bird]

Your welcome.

I hope I was of some help.

As a side note regarding addressing someone much older than yourself, the correct way of doing it is either by saying "Sir" or, in my case "John" or "Mr. Baker."

I am not telling you this because I am an old A hole, I'm telling you this so that you will get into the habit before your check ride. Addressing your designated examiner by calling him "man", could go against you in a very big way.

Good manners and respect for your elders will take you a whole lot further in aviation, and your life, than trying to make your elders your peers.

If you want to have some fun, start referring to your younger flight instructor as "Sir", watch the attitude change.

There, you just got some more help.

-John

Thanks again John I will definetely remember this one

 

[MAKG1]

That "sir" thing varies by generation and locale. Having lived in both those regions, it's definitely conventional in Virginia (though less so close to the District 'cause nearly everyone is a transplant), but it really isn't in southern CA. No one will object anywhere; it never hurts.

John, you're not a San Diego native, are you?

 

[White Bird]

Being off by more than 200' and not correcting might bring the jets.

It sounds to me like the instructor just need to verbalize a little. The push is probably intended as a gentle reminder that you need to pay attention to altitude and never get more than 100' off. That's standard you'll get to before you do your private and in about 20 hours or so you'll be thanking him for being strict with it now. You can't learn to go 200' off now and think you're going to unlearn it later.

Remember that every pilot here has been where you are. We were all frustrated with learning and wondering if we could do it. Nobody has ever failed to learn to fly, some people just quit first.

Thanks for the advice. I also hope it is just a nromal phase of training frustration

 

[John Baker]

That "sir" thing varies by generation and locale. Having lived in both those regions, it's definitely conventional in Virginia (though less so close to the District 'cause nearly everyone is a transplant), but it really isn't in southern CA. No one will object anywhere; it never hurts.

John, you're not a San Diego native, are you?

I've lived here since I was 15, I'm now 70, always in Ocean Beach or Point Loma. I did live in National City for a very short while. Ocean Beach is famous for it's laid back atmosphere, always has been.

My point to the OP was he would be better off not trying to make his elders his peers, especially regarding his D.E. To avoid such a slip of the tongue, he should start practicing now.

Myself, I do not care for it when a kid younger than my own kids calls me "man." He is not one of my peers. Or perhaps it is because I feel that we have not shared enough of the same experiences that a long life can bring.

Either way, it just rubs me wrong.

Perhaps I am nothing but an uptight old as*hole, and am unique among older people, I do not know that for sure. I do know one thing for sure, I'm living proof the good die young.

I still maintain that he would be much better served if he broke the habit as soon as he can.

-John

 

[Eagle I]

White Bird, I don't post here a lot because I always feel like I have nothing to offer. After 51 hours, I'm still pre-solo, so don't feel bad. But I did want to just say a couple of things regarding your situation. If there's one thing I'm an "expert" at, it's training gone bad!!!

First, you're still way too early in the process to even consider the possibility that maybe flying isn't for you. And until an instructor sits you down to have a heart-to-heart to tell you maybe you should take up another hobby, don't ever let them make you feel like it's not meant to be! You know how you feel up there.

I spent 28 hours with an instructor who was all over the controls, without telling me what I was doing wrong. Hell, he wouldn't even admit that he was on the controls, even though I often felt like I was fighting him! A good instructor will let you make mistakes, short of endangering your lives, of course. Beware of the ones who want to talk all the time, who want to demonstrate constantly.

Don't feel like you owe your current CFI anything. Hurt feelings have no business in learning to fly. If your CFI isn't working for you, he isn't working. Try another. I've been through several different CFIs, and in retrospect, I'm sorry I didn't interview them beforehand. Ask your CFI why he/she became a CFI, and what it means to them to teach, and it might tell you a lot! Despite the stereotypes, one of the best CFIs I had was actually a "time-builder." She was working toward an airline job, but she was committed to teaching in the meantime. One of the worst CFIs I had was a career CFI, who seemed far more interested in flying the plane himself than in teaching. When I expressed my frustration to him, he told me, among other obnoxious things, that if I quit it would be no big deal, because someone else would quickly fill my time slot. He had no accountability, no reason to make sure his students succeeded.

I could go on forever about what to beware of, but for now I'll leave you with one final thought based on what I experienced. I feel now like some CFIs were just testing me all along, almost like they wanted to challenge me by being jerks, to see if I had PIC skills in my blood. So if something a CFI says or does doesn't feel right, speak up and say so! If you feel like your CFI is not letting you do what you need to do, tell him or her. They'll respect your for it in the end, I think. Too often we students think we're at the mercy of our teachers, that we know nothing, when maybe in reality we could be teaching our teachers how to better teach.

 

[MAKG1]

I've lived here since I was 15, I'm now 70, always in Ocean Beach or Point Loma. I did live in National City for a very short while. Ocean Beach is famous for it's laid back atmosphere, always has been.

Believe me, I hear you. I've lived near Santa Cruz for over 20 years; it's laid back to a fault, and has been for over 100 years at least; it's been a beach resort that long. The thing that irks me is kids -- even really young ones -- trained to call adults by their first names. That was unheard of when I was a kid, but it's the norm now. And don't get me started on marketing and customer service types who think it's more "intimate" to look up my name on a list, mispronounce it (and it's not a complex name at all), and somehow pretend to know me. False intimacy drives me up the wall. Like pretending to care how my day is.

We're not going to change it.

If a DPE dinged a student for that, I'd question whether that DPE is in the right line of work. The point is to determine safety, not manners. One can be safe and a jerk at the same time. And the few DPEs I've interacted with directly (whether in a testing environment or not) have been very laid back. And not even in Santa Cruz (there isn't even an airport there).

Having said that, manners do not hurt, and it's not a bad idea at all to practice that even if it makes no difference. It can and will make things more pleasant even if not affecting outcomes.

 

[John Baker]

I somehow feel an offended DPE can, and probably will, make a check ride somewhat more stringent than one who is not offended.

-John

 

[MAKG1]

I somehow feel an offended DPE can, and probably will, make a check ride somewhat more stringent than one who is not offended.

That would be unprofessional, and perhaps actionable if provable.

Manners are not in the PTS.

 

[John Baker]

That would be unprofessional, and perhaps actionable if provable.

Manners are not in the PTS.

Probably so, but why take the chance?

-John

 

[ProspectingCFI]

Probably so, but why take the chance?

-John

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right, in my opinion.

I've seen it first hand and I won't put any names out there but I've seen a couple biased DPE's. There are just some with this massive chip on their shoulder. I guess 14k hours and a dozen type ratings can go to your head if you're not careful, lol.

On the other hand, I've seen a really nice kid that just wouldn't shut up be failed 3 times for a PPL. Now, the crazy thing is, he CAN fly and was relatively knowledgeable. He had this issue of always trying to complete your sentences, I mean constantly to the point of real annoyance. And this would get him into trouble in the oral because not only did he eventually annoy the examiner, he also spat out incorrect information and just dug his hole deeper.

I suspect that the examiner was trying to tell him something.

 

[Henning]

Probably so, but why take the chance?

-John

True, BTW, I lived at Santa Cruz and Bacon back '87-88. I used to have The Beacon's dark room in my kitchen lol. They still print that paper?

 

[MAKG1]

I've seen it first hand and I won't put any names out there but I've seen a couple biased DPE's. There are just some with this massive chip on their shoulder. I guess 14k hours and a dozen type ratings can go to your head if you're not careful, lol.

That is an absolutely massive cop-out. Who do you think you're doing favors for? The public?

If you've witnessed this firsthand, it is your moral duty to report it, as it substantially interferes with the point of having a designated examiner in the first place. It is massively unfair to the victim, and reduces rather than enhances safety for the rest of us.

If a designee is abusing his power or otherwise undermining the legitimacy of the certification system, he needs to have his designation revoked. Period. Full stop. And if an instructor isn't going to take that seriously, who is? The victim? Everyone will treat it as sour grapes.

 

[MAKG1]

True, BTW, I lived at Santa Cruz and Bacon back '87-88. I used to have The Beacon's dark room in my kitchen lol. They still print that paper?

Never heard of the Beacon, so I guess not.... The Sentinel is still around, but has moved.

Quite a lot of stuff got disrupted in downtown Santa Cruz in 1989.

 

[Henning]

Never heard of the Beacon, so I guess not.... The Sentinel is still around, but has moved.

Quite a lot of stuff got disrupted in downtown Santa Cruz in 1989.

Yeah, I was at a bus stop with a fresh cup of coffee downtown visiting a friend when Loma Prieta hit. Ended up on my ass with a spilled cup of coffee, and I really wanted that coffee lol. However I was referring to Santa Cruz and Bacon in Ocean Beach SD.

 

[ProspectingCFI]

That is an absolutely massive cop-out. Who do you think you're doing favors for? The public?

If you've witnessed this firsthand, it is your moral duty to report it, as it substantially interferes with the point of having a designated examiner in the first place. It is massively unfair to the victim, and reduces rather than enhances safety for the rest of us.

If a designee is abusing his power or otherwise undermining the legitimacy of the certification system, he needs to have his designation revoked. Period. Full stop. And if an instructor isn't going to take that seriously, who is? The victim? Everyone will treat it as sour grapes.

In what way is this a cop out? Please tell me so I don't make the mistake again, although, I think you'll be hard pressed to answer.

Look I agree with you, totally. In hindsight yeah somebody should have said something but I know my reasons. I was a student myself at the time and didn't know any better. Maybe that answer isn't good enough, but its my answer. To me, the guy was intimidating and if he said jump, the whole school asked how high?

All I'm saying is it exists. I hope you don't think it's all peaches out there...

Try getting screamed at in the plane by the dp. No fun.

 

[John Baker]

True, BTW, I lived at Santa Cruz and Bacon back '87-88. I used to have The Beacon's dark room in my kitchen lol. They still print that paper?

Yes they do, I advertised in it every week for about fifteen years. It has gone from once a week to every other week though. The new owners of my business have kept it up. It's about a two column by four inch ad. It is distributed from the back of a pick up truck all over O.B. and Point Loma.

The company that owns it now also owns several other small papers, including the La Jolla Light & Journal.

I'll bet you miss those days, don't you.

-John

 

[Henning]

Yes they do, I advertised in it every week for about fifteen years. It has gone from once a week to every other week though. The new owners of my business have kept it up. It's about a two column by four inch ad. It is distributed from the back of a pick up truck all over O.B. and Point Loma.

The company that owns it now also owns several other small papers, including the La Jolla Light & Journal.

I'll bet you miss those days, don't you.

-John

Kinda lol. They had the used bookstore next to the hippie bakery, I noticed when I was in town last year it was gone. That was back in the days when the 'war zone' was the the manufacturing center for 90% of the meth in the country and the bikers were in and out constantly picking up lol. Now it's made everywhere.

 

[White Bird]

White Bird, I don't post here a lot because I always feel like I have nothing to offer. After 51 hours, I'm still pre-solo, so don't feel bad. But I did want to just say a couple of things regarding your situation. If there's one thing I'm an "expert" at, it's training gone bad!!!

First, you're still way too early in the process to even consider the possibility that maybe flying isn't for you. And until an instructor sits you down to have a heart-to-heart to tell you maybe you should take up another hobby, don't ever let them make you feel like it's not meant to be! You know how you feel up there.

I spent 28 hours with an instructor who was all over the controls, without telling me what I was doing wrong. Hell, he wouldn't even admit that he was on the controls, even though I often felt like I was fighting him! A good instructor will let you make mistakes, short of endangering your lives, of course. Beware of the ones who want to talk all the time, who want to demonstrate constantly.

Don't feel like you owe your current CFI anything. Hurt feelings have no business in learning to fly. If your CFI isn't working for you, he isn't working. Try another. I've been through several different CFIs, and in retrospect, I'm sorry I didn't interview them beforehand. Ask your CFI why he/she became a CFI, and what it means to them to teach, and it might tell you a lot! Despite the stereotypes, one of the best CFIs I had was actually a "time-builder." She was working toward an airline job, but she was committed to teaching in the meantime. One of the worst CFIs I had was a career CFI, who seemed far more interested in flying the plane himself than in teaching. When I expressed my frustration to him, he told me, among other obnoxious things, that if I quit it would be no big deal, because someone else would quickly fill my time slot. He had no accountability, no reason to make sure his students succeeded.

I could go on forever about what to beware of, but for now I'll leave you with one final thought based on what I experienced. I feel now like some CFIs were just testing me all along, almost like they wanted to challenge me by being jerks, to see if I had PIC skills in my blood. So if something a CFI says or does doesn't feel right, speak up and say so! If you feel like your CFI is not letting you do what you need to do, tell him or her. They'll respect your for it in the end, I think. Too often we students think we're at the mercy of our teachers, that we know nothing, when maybe in reality we could be teaching our teachers how to better teach.

You are straight to the point here, my instructor always likes to demonstrate and like you said I can feel that he is adding rudders and I have to fight with the controls. I scheduled a lesson with the chief and I will see how it goes. Thank you for the advice Eagle I, your input is really appreciated

 

[White Bird]

I've lived here since I was 15, I'm now 70, always in Ocean Beach or Point Loma. I did live in National City for a very short while. Ocean Beach is famous for it's laid back atmosphere, always has been.

My point to the OP was he would be better off not trying to make his elders his peers, especially regarding his D.E. To avoid such a slip of the tongue, he should start practicing now.

Myself, I do not care for it when a kid younger than my own kids calls me "man." He is not one of my peers. Or perhaps it is because I feel that we have not shared enough of the same experiences that a long life can bring.

Either way, it just rubs me wrong.

Perhaps I am nothing but an uptight old as*hole, and am unique among older people, I do not know that for sure. I do know one thing for sure, I'm living proof the good die young.

I still maintain that he would be much better served if he broke the habit as soon as he can.

-John

I understand that typed conversations like this forum or text messages and so will not deliver the right message. But I used the word MAN because John's story really touched me and I used it from my heart, from a MAN to another MAN.
I think men after a certain age become equal on many levels including the way they engage in conversatios. I think most of us in this forum are gathered for the same reason AVIATION so we are some kind of peers here. I have more than 70 employees working for me and they all call me Boss or Sir (some are almost as old as John).

 

[John Baker]

Sal, your right, we are all pilots. As long as you keep going and achieve your PPL, you always will be one.

Some of our fellow pilots have achieved much more than their PPL. I've addressed more than a few of them, even though they are much younger than myself, as "Sir," They have earned it. I have to admit though, in one such case, my thoughts about him were a long way way from "Sir". Very colorful were the adjectives running through my head, although I did not express any of them.

I remember one day at the FBO at Golden State Flying Club in El Cajon, about six older pilots were doing some serious hanger flying. BeforeI had time to think about it, they had brought me into their pilots conversation. They all knew I was a brand new student, yet they treated me as one of their group of pilots, and actually seemed to appreciate my input. That really made me feel good about the whole flying idea. I even told my brother about it.

Looking back, it was no big deal, but to me, at the time, it was huge.

I appreciate your explanation of your addressing me as "man", but I still do not care for such a title.

-John

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yeah apparently some CFIs trust their students more than others. The funny thing is I am very calm when it comes to the landing part.

Almost right....

Some instructors trust THEMSELVES more than others.

Most instructors let students diverge to the limit of the instructors level of confidence to fix the divergence.

 

[MAKG1]

In what way is this a cop out? Please tell me so I don't make the mistake again, although, I think you'll be hard pressed to answer.

Saying that you witnessed it but aren't naming names is a cop-out. Either it happened or it didn't.

 

[Negreteplaya]

White bird.
I have studied a lot. Different things. School, music , sports , languages , even I have been teacher in university. I,ve been in both sides. As time passes in our personal life we have more things to handle and some times they converge in one time. We use to make things but we are not 100 % And That's the principal razor why we don't get concentration to catch the most essential spirit of what we do. Suddenly in a calm day you wollget a light of bright and then you will make click with you airplane. It's not the Cfi. It's ONly You. Continue , be perseverance and you will get it

 

[Ateaist]

White bird.
I have studied a lot. Different things. School, music , sports , languages , even I have been teacher in university. I,ve been in both sides. As time passes in our personal life we have more things to handle and some times they converge in one time. We use to make things but we are not 100 % And That's the principal razor why we don't get concentration to catch the most essential spirit of what we do. Suddenly in a calm day you wollget a light of bright and then you will make click with you airplane. It's not the Cfi. It's ONly You. Continue , be perseverance and you will get it

I disagree with that. It's not only you - if your CFI doesn't let you fly and land the plane you need to change CFI. You cannot learn this by simply looking at someone else -- you have to experience the feel of the controls along with the movements of the aircraft to completely understand what you are supposed to do and to input the correct controls to compensate.

And whatever you do, don't give up. Finding the right CFI is key, someone who teaches the way you are wired to learn. We all learn and respond differently to different people and methods of teaching, and it's just a matter of finding the style of teaching that is conductive to your way of learning. Just remember - you are the customer here, so you need to do what's right for you. With the right CFI you'll have the PPL in no time!

 

[ProspectingCFI]

Saying that you witnessed it but aren't naming names is a cop-out. Either it happened or it didn't.

Your argument holds zero weight.

So are you saying all cfi's are perfect teachers too? Lets get real here. People are going to be people.

And just because you want names doesn't mean I'm going to sacrifice my career on some forums to give them to you. I don't know if you realize this, but respectable people usually don't like being called a liar...

Believe what you want to, I'm done with this because its just going to tick off the mods most likely.

 

[Jeanie]

Most instructors let students diverge to the limit of the instructors level of confidence to fix the divergence.

~~~ one of the hard things to do as an instructor is to learn through experience how far to let the student mess up before saving it. Your CFI is new, he's learning and once you fly with the chief and have a chance to talk it over then perhaps both you and your CFI will improve.

 

[douglas393]

That would be unprofessional, and perhaps actionable if provable.

Manners are not in the PTS.

That is also called human nature. I am not a DPE, nor an expert on the administration of FAA examinations, but having taken more than my fair share of oral examinations(both formal and informal) in my lifetime(probably over 1000) and having given a fair number as well, and spoke with mnay a person who gives oral examinations on a regular basis, I can tell you that a examinee who treats the examiner and exam process with a modicum of respect is more likely to have a better, and more likely positive outcome, than an examinee that treats the examiner and exam process in a less respectful nature. I look at oral examinations in the same way I have looked at job interviews. The employer is looking for reasons to either hire me or not hire me, and if he does not like me, he is going to look for reasons not to hire me, even if I am the best thing to sit in front his desk in the last thirty years.

 

[MAKG1]

Every job I've ever applied for had a qualification that the applicant must be able to communicate and work with a team. A practical test is NOT a job application, and it is a big mistake to think of it as one. There is no such qualification. The examiner is providing a service and is being rather well paid for it. A rigorous application of the published rules are expected. Until the PTS says "the applicant shall have good manners," it is an abuse of power for an examiner to take that into account.

And if I were the victim of such abuse, I would expect my instructor to come to my defense -- publicly if necessary -- with no excuses about "protecting my job." The instructor is hired by the student; that IS his job.

 

[Henning]

I don't get this, the DE is a contractor making his living providing a service. You don't like the DE's attitude, send him to the house unpaid and hire another one. Personally I have never met a DE that had attitude problems like that, most of them are warm and friendly and treat you as an aviation colleague. I have yet to meet one that didn't introduce themselves and operate on a first name basis and make the candidate try to feel as calm and comfortable as possible. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're out there, there are just plenty more out there that there is no reason to keep them in business with your money. As for CFIs? They are dime a dozen, if one has a crap attitude, drop them like a hot potato.

 

[Eagle I]

Thank you for the advice Eagle I, your input is really appreciated

I'm glad you appreciated my 2 cents' worth. Best of luck, and let us know how your lesson with the chief instructor went!

 

[cirrusmx]

if you dont like him FIRE HIM and get another one. pretty simple.

 

[Eagle I]

Almost right....

Some instructors trust THEMSELVES more than others.

Most instructors let students diverge to the limit of the instructors level of confidence to fix the divergence.

I had never thought about it this way before, but you are so obviously right! And it makes sense now looking back at the CFI I had who was all over the controls all the time. He just seemed like the nervous type. My second CFI, on the other hand, seemed so laid-back and hands-off that I almost wondered whether he had suicidal tendencies!