A few questions about climbing to a new MEA

E

Electric

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
62
Location
Connecticut
Display Name
Display name:
Electric
When MEA increases, do I have to climb to the new MEA before the MEA changes? Or can I start climbing at the point it changes, as long as I can climb better than 200 feet per nm?

If I have to be at the new MEA before MEA changes, and miscalculate my ability to get to the required altitude on time, is is safe to hold while gaining altitude?

Thanks in advance!
 
FAR 91.177(b).

Bob
 
Electric said:
When MEA increases, do I have to climb to the new MEA before the MEA changes? Or can I start climbing at the point it changes, as long as I can climb better than 200 feet per nm?

If I have to be at the new MEA before MEA changes, and miscalculate my ability to get to the required altitude on time, is is safe to hold while gaining altitude?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
It could be unsafe to just hold on your own. If you think you need to ya better have a chat with ATC about it
 
bobmrg said:
FAR 91.177(b).

Bob
Click to expand...
Interesting. I'll quote it here:
(b)Climb. Climb to a higher minimum IFR altitude shall begin immediately after passing the point beyond which that minimum altitude applies, except that when ground obstructions intervene, the point beyond which that higher minimum altitude applies shall be crossed at or above the applicable MCA.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, in that if you had to be at the new MEA before arriving at the point where it changes, it would essentially be "All MCA all the time" and there'd be no need for an MCA indication. I am curious though... how much time do I have to get to a new higher MEA? The standard "200 ft/nm" or something else?
 
As Bob points out with his reg cite, if there's no MCA then you start the climb at the point the new altitude applies. If there's an MCA you better climb to cross there.

Either way, if ATC hasn't cleared you to a legal altitude, you better have a talk with them.
 
I believe it's 120' per nautical mile. If that slope can't be maintained, then they need a MCA or to move the effective point of the new MEA back. That's pretty shallow, only about 1.15 degrees. That's a 120 fpm at 60knots ground speed or 240 at 120.
 
flyingron said:
I believe it's 120' per nautical mile. If that slope can't be maintained, then they need a MCA or to move the effective point of the new MEA back. That's pretty shallow, only about 1.15 degrees. That's a 120 fpm at 60knots ground speed or 240 at 120.
Click to expand...

150/nm sea level to 5,000.
120/nm 5,000 to 10,000.
100/nm above 10,000.

Not only in Terps but also the IPH.
 
How does this work in practice? The only time I can think of where I'd need to know this and do something about it on my own would be a lost comm situation. Every other time, I'm going to be flying an assigned altitude. Or, does it ever happen that you're flying along at some altitude with an MEA change coming up and center just expects you to, say, climb?

If it's lost comm, I'm climbing before the MEA change. I doubt I'll remember rules like this that are used so infrequently.
 
Thanks. I always enjoy your stuff.

And I'm not trying to be arrogant or dismissive about this. It's life or death, after all. But I'm going to ask the half dozen instrument rated pilots I know in person this question and see what they'd do, and if they remember the climb rates. I'll be they don't, and one of 'em flies for Fedex.

I realize things like this are the Law. I realize they make sense to some people. I realize the Law requires me as a pilot to know it. I realize the chart lawyers will come along and point out how it's in this legend or that document. But c'mon... this is counter intuitive. You tell a student "This number right here is the Minimum Enroute Altitude, along this line." Only it's not, really. There are these hazy areas (that aren't charted) at the beginning and end that are transition areas. You can be "on" this route, below the MEA. But, you know, just not for too long. Which is precisely what you want to be wondering about in IMC. Bleah.

Also, and I'm not familiar with the entire instrument knowledge test question pool, but this seems like a damn good question for that. And I didn't see it even once during practice or on the real test. I do, however, know the symbol for the height of the tropopause. So I have that going for me, which is nice.
 
So a follow on question, if I miscalculate my climb rate (or get in a downdraft) is it acceptable to hold over an MCA flag? Or do I have to turn around and fly in the opposite direction prior to reaching the MCA flag?
 
Electric said:
So a follow on question, if I miscalculate my climb rate (or get in a downdraft) is it acceptable to hold over an MCA flag? Or do I have to turn around and fly in the opposite direction prior to reaching the MCA flag?
Click to expand...
In an emergency, 91.3 lets you do what you need to.

But otherwise, you do what you're cleared for. If the MCA isn't a clearance limit or explicit hold, it's not ok to hold there, unless you ask for and receive an amended clearance.

There are a handful of DPs in mountainous terrain that specify climbs in holds to meet an MCA. Then, it's ok.
 
Mistake Not... said:
Thanks. I always enjoy your stuff.

And I'm not trying to be arrogant or dismissive about this. It's life or death, after all. But I'm going to ask the half dozen instrument rated pilots I know in person this question and see what they'd do, and if they remember the climb rates. I'll be they don't, and one of 'em flies for Fedex.

I realize things like this are the Law. I realize they make sense to some people. I realize the Law requires me as a pilot to know it. I realize the chart lawyers will come along and point out how it's in this legend or that document. But c'mon... this is counter intuitive. You tell a student "This number right here is the Minimum Enroute Altitude, along this line." Only it's not, really. There are these hazy areas (that aren't charted) at the beginning and end that are transition areas. You can be "on" this route, below the MEA. But, you know, just not for too long. Which is precisely what you want to be wondering about in IMC. Bleah.

Also, and I'm not familiar with the entire instrument knowledge test question pool, but this seems like a damn good question for that. And I didn't see it even once during practice or on the real test. I do, however, know the symbol for the height of the tropopause. So I have that going for me, which is nice.
Click to expand...
The textbook answer to relieve your pain is to plan every flight with the thought of how you'd deal with lost comm at any point en route. As we move to area nav based procedures, stress is placed on the existing rules made for a VOR system. I don't know how the ATC designers can reconcile the two unless they require point to point software solutions within the rnav boxes that figure lost comm solutions on the fly. In the meantime, I'd do the math during planning, so your action is preordained. If you can't make the climb gradient, hold until reaching the new MEA or close to it before continuing.

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
Electric said:
So a follow on question, if I miscalculate my climb rate (or get in a downdraft) is it acceptable to hold over an MCA flag? Or do I have to turn around and fly in the opposite direction prior to reaching the MCA flag?
Click to expand...
If you don't think you can meet an MCA, then you better be having a conversation with ATC. They'll help you out, perhaps with a climbing hold at the MCA fix, depending on where you are when you contact them.
 
Mistake Not... said:
Thanks. I always enjoy your stuff.

And I'm not trying to be arrogant or dismissive about this. It's life or death, after all. But I'm going to ask the half dozen instrument rated pilots I know in person this question and see what they'd do, and if they remember the climb rates. I'll be they don't, and one of 'em flies for Fedex.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't expect an airline pilot to know the rule. It simply doesn't have any meaning operating a jet transport in the flight levels. It didn't have any meaning to me as an airline pilot, either. But, it did have meaning to me early in my flying career flying a poorly performing Piper Apache along the routes from the Los Angeles area to the Seattle area via RBL, MFR, etc. I would stay below 10,000 when MEAs permitted, and ATC would often not provide clearance to a higher MEA until necessary, so it was necessary to be aware of any MCAs. I have no idea whether anyone is doing it that way these days. When I was flying that Apache, often we had no direct communications with the center. (relayed clearances through ATIS, predecessor of FSS.) Those days are long gone except perhaps for some areas of Alaska and in some other remote countries.
 
WillFly4Food said:
If you don't think you can meet an MCA, then you better be having a conversation with ATC. They'll help you out, perhaps with a climbing hold at the MCA fix, depending on where you are when you contact them.
Click to expand...
Usually, this would be a concern in a mountainous area. ATC may be unable to provide a holding pattern unless one has been established at that particular fix, and the pilot has no way of knowing that.
 
aterpster said:
Usually, this would be a concern in a mountainous area. ATC may be unable to provide a holding pattern unless one has been established at that particular fix, and the pilot has no way of knowing that.
Click to expand...
A small number of them are charted on the L charts.

"Delay" vectors and wholesale reroutes to lower terrain are also possibilities.

It's considered poor technique, but a Vx climb might be necessary. Certainly Vy at high altitude.
 
MAKG1 said:
A small number of them are charted on the L charts.

"Delay" vectors and wholesale reroutes to lower terrain are also possibilities.
Click to expand...
That presumes radar contact and that you are at, or above, the center's MIA. Not always the case, especially in mountainous areas. If you're at, or above MIA and in radar contact, the center can assign an ad hoc holding pattern. But, where a fix has an MCA, there likely wouldn't be sufficient airspace above MIA for an ad hoc hold.
 
Mistake Not... said:
How does this work in practice? The only time I can think of where I'd need to know this and do something about it on my own would be a lost comm situation. Every other time, I'm going to be flying an assigned altitude. Or, does it ever happen that you're flying along at some altitude with an MEA change coming up and center just expects you to, say, climb?

If it's lost comm, I'm climbing before the MEA change. I doubt I'll remember rules like this that are used so infrequently.
Click to expand...

They don't expect you to climb, but they may forget about your. You need to tell them if you didn't get the assignment. Another thing that can happen is that you may be flying on a significantly lower T route or with lower MOCA. ATC may not clear you for higher MEA if they don't think you need VOR since there may not be an obstacle clearance issue. You need to be on top of this.
 
Electric said:
So a follow on question, if I miscalculate my climb rate (or get in a downdraft) is it acceptable to hold over an MCA flag? Or do I have to turn around and fly in the opposite direction prior to reaching the MCA flag?
Click to expand...
Same answer as for about 5,000 other things that can happen in IFR flight requiring a deviation from a clearance or instruction.

  • Can't make the climb? Tell ATC what you need.
  • Need to deviate around a storm cell? Tell ATC what you need.
  • Ice building up and another altitude would work better? Tell ATC what you need.
  • Have an emergency? Tell ATC what you need.
  • [Put in your favorite in-flight problem] Tell ATC what you need.

There's a young guy who does some decent YouTube videos, Matt Guthmiller. His claim to fame is flying around the world in a Bonanza when he was 19. in a recent video, he is flying to South Dakota to visit family. In the Chicago area, he starts to pick up ice at 10,000 msl. He calls Approach, tells them he's starting to pick up ice and asks for 12,000. "Unable," replies ATC due to the approach/departure corridors. Matt's reply? "Can we get it on another heading?" followed by an instruction to turn and climb.

I stopped the video and applauded.
 
And sometimes you just gotta tell ATC what you have to do (and worry about their feelings later).
 
midlifeflyer said:
There's a young guy who does some decent YouTube videos, Matt Guthmiller. His claim to fame is flying around the world in a Bonanza when he was 19. in a recent video, he is flying to South Dakota to visit family. In the Chicago area, he starts to pick up ice at 10,000 msl. He calls Approach, tells them he's starting to pick up ice and asks for 12,000. "Unable," replies ATC due to the approach/departure corridors. Matt's reply? "Can we get it on another heading?" followed by an instruction to turn and climb.
Click to expand...

Ah, I had something similar happen to me, but under completely benign circumstances. I was climbing with skydivers when Center told me to stop my climb at X altitude due to traffic. Obviously, we want to climb as quickly as possible, but I don't care what direction we fly in. I told the controller I could turn in any direction instead, and she immediately specified one and lifted the altitude restriction. If that hadn't worked, no big deal, we would just be delayed a few minutes. But under Matt's situation I wonder what he would have done next if the controller wasn't able to accommodate a turn either. Haven't heard of him or his YouTube channel ... will have to check it out.
 
Let me phrase my question differently. What I'm trying to figure out is, as a backup strategy, can I expect to be able to hold over the MCA flag, below the MCA, but above the MEA immediately before the MCA flag? Is there anything unsafe about doing such a hold?
 
Last edited:
Electric said:
Let me phrase my question differently. What I'm trying to figure out is, as a backup strategy, can I expect to be able to hold over the MCA flag, below the MCA, but above the MEA immediately before the MCA flag? Is there anything unsafe about doing such a hold?
Click to expand...

Could be or not. Depends upon terrain. Having said that, neither ATC nor you can create an ad hoc hold on an airway that is in a mountainous area. Practical hint: If you are using a WAAS navigator and can hold at some IAS of 140 KIAS, or less, the confines of the airway will probably contain your ad hoc hold.
 
dmspilot said:
Ah, I had something similar happen to me, but under completely benign circumstances. I was climbing with skydivers when Center told me to stop my climb at X altitude due to traffic. Obviously, we want to climb as quickly as possible, but I don't care what direction we fly in. I told the controller I could turn in any direction instead, and she immediately specified one and lifted the altitude restriction. If that hadn't worked, no big deal, we would just be delayed a few minutes. But under Matt's situation I wonder what he would have done next if the controller wasn't able to accommodate a turn either. Haven't heard of him or his YouTube channel ... will have to check it out.
Click to expand...
I don't know what he would do but he seemed to have good situational awareness of the options. At some point it becomes, "I need to get out of these conditions now. Give me what's best for you or I will just do what I think is best for me."

I always keep in mind a story I heard years ago. Pilot flying a single keeps getting vectored out to sea. Every attempt at negotiating closer to land fails. Finally, "Declaring an emergency." "State nature of the emergency," responds ATC. "The one I'm going to have if you don't get me closer to shore."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top