8500-8, DUI & BAC

[FirebirdTN]

Hi All, am new to the forum. I have been interested in obtaining my PPL, and have finally decided to pull the trigger, but looks like I may have hit a brick wall right out of the gate:

I had a DUI in which I do not know the date or BAC level.
I also was thrown in the "drunk tank" once for public intoxication.

Both were disclosed on my form 8500-8.

The main concern I have is the >.15 BAC limit. Is that at ANY time, or within a certain time frame?

My DUI was over 30 years ago when I was 16 years old (1986). The records may be expunged, or not even available.

The "drunk tank" incident was almost 30 years ago. I was early in the military at the time, so I must have been around 20 give or take a year or two.

I am now 46.

My ME is tomorrow, and I am wondering if I have already hit a roadblock.

Thanks,

-Alan

 

[AggieMike88]

You need to cancel the exam. NOW.

What you don't know yet is that your situation as described will put your medical certification in jeopardy of being denied due to the alcohol events and lack of documentation. Being honest and disclosing these events is a positive thing, but the lack of documentation is what is gonna bite you. And once your medical is denied, your powered flight dreams are done and over.

There are too many AME's who will just take your exam fee, defer your case to the FAA Medical Division, and not be your advocate. Unless you know the one you set your appointment with has successfully worked cases such as yours, you run a significant risk of deferral and denial.

Once the exam starts and you hand over the confirmation code, your application (8500-8) is live and can only end in approval or denial. But if you cancel the appointment and do what is described elbow, what you have filled out remains in limbo, eventually evaporates, and does not create any jeopardy.

You need to switch from your current AME to one who can properly guide you on how to build your "case file" with the proper documentation. That some things are super old isn't gonna matter. Two events like this are showing the FAA there is an significant chance you have a problem and it is to you to show them there isn't.

An AME that can help is Dr. Bruce Chien of Peoria, IL. He can be reached through his website at www.aeromedicaldoc.com. Be 100% honest and humble (aka no attitude because you get mad or frustrated) and he will provide you with the correct guidance of what to go get from law enforcement and others. Then it's highly suggested to pay his fee and travel to his office for the exam so he becomes your AME performing the exam and records review. Dr Bruce has done enough of these to ensure the packet won't be "auto denied" or lack information. Deferral and special issuance may occur, as is the need for expensive psychiatric evaluation, but you won't be denied.

 

[AggieMike88]

I have past alcohol instances to possibly contend with (in adolescence), but also a trip to my regular doctor due to situational depression due to a particularly nasty separation, ultimately leading to divorce.

I copied this from your other post to keep the record here complete.

That your primary doc may have proscribed an SSRI is another reason to cancel your upcoming AME appointment. Once again, if you don't have the proper documentation for this prescription and event, the submission process is going to get fouled and the chance of denial increases.

Again, all is not lost. But you need (and will appreciate) the guidance of a Senior Difficult Case AME the likes of Dr. Bruce.

 

[MassPilot]

I also was thrown in the "drunk tank" once for public intoxication.

A friend of mine was thrown in the drunk tank and when they released him in the morning they made it very clear that he was never actually arrested, just detained for his own safety. There were no charges and he was never booked or anything. If your situation was the same then you may not have to disclose it.

 

[AggieMike88]

If your situation was the same then you may not have to disclose it

Maybe.... But from what Dr. Bruce has taught us in the past, it's better to err on side of caution and obtain the LEO records (there will be a record) of the incident and let the Senior AME aid in the disclosure decision.

 

[FirebirdTN]

MassPilot-This is indeed what happened. I don't know if I was actually arrested or not, but figured I would disclose it.

I think I may have messed up royally anyway. I forgot to disclose my regular doctor visits for the past three years (specifically a cold recently, and the depression visit during my separation), and now I can't go back and edit it. No, I promise I am really not THAT dumb, but am HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE with paperwork. I thought the form was asking if I had seen any medical specialists, not regular doc visits. Ugg.

Just for the record, I swear I am not a complete moron...well, then again, maybe I am. I have a background in aviation electronics, but currently work in the broadcast industry.

Thank you all for chiming in.

-Alan

 

[MassPilot]

MassPilot-This is indeed what happened. I don't know if I was actually arrested or not, but figured I would disclose it.

I would be very careful about disclosing anything that you may not be required to disclose to the FAA. The form asks about arrests and convictions. If this is neither than I wouldn't think you would need to disclose it, but I'm no expert. I know it was a long time ago, but do you have any recollection of paying a fine or getting a court date? I would imagine having only one reportable alcohol incident rather than two would make obtaining a medical less difficult.

As AggieMike said, do not visit the AME until you've talked to an expert.

 

[AggieMike88]

I forgot to disclose my regular doctor visits for the past three years .... and now I can't go back and edit it.

Since you have not started a "live" exam with an AME and he has not opened up the 8500-8 online file (he can only do that after you have provided the confirmation code that prints at the bottom of the MedXpress submission), you haven't attached yourself to another object by an incline plane wrapped helically around an axis (aka screwed).

As I said earlier, until this file is opened, no one but you knows what you have submitted. And if it is never opened, then after about 60 days, the file evaporates and the electrons are recycled.

Once you have the correct advice from an expert such as Dr. Bruce, you can complete the form with the correct info. And then THAT one is the one that is provided to the Senior Difficult Case AME.

Have you canceled the medical exam appointment yet? If not, do it NOW.

 

[AggieMike88]

Alan -- Where do you reside? We have some really good members all over the place and maybe you can join on a group that is near to your domicile.

 

[dtr]

I'd take the advice you're getting and cancel your physical. Dr. Chien is a great guy. I've been in communication with him for the past couple of days and he's been honest and upfront with me about my situation. All is not lost, but I've got some homework to do and then a lot of thinking to do. Good luck to you.

 

[AggieMike88]

I would be very careful about disclosing anything that you may not be required to disclose to the FAA. The form asks about arrests and convictions. If this is neither than I wouldn't think you would need to disclose it, but I'm no expert

Yes the form mentions arrests and convictions, but Bruce and other sources have shared that the FAA will review all databases for bad patterns. So if a national driver's license search found no arrests or no convictions, but finds entries saying that the applicant was detained for an alcohol related event, the FAA could apply the same weight by determining there is enough of a pattern to warrant action.

Think the German Wings guy... while not directly alcohol, the general pattern was happening but wasn't being caught by the right people in the right agencies. You bet they are looking closer now.

Plus if an applicant omitted an event that should have been declared, then he can quickly get caught up in the Federal criminal tangle of lying on an official form.

 

[MassPilot]

Yes the form mentions arrests and convictions, but Bruce and other sources have shared that the FAA will review all databases for bad patterns. So if a national driver's license search found no arrests or no convictions, but finds entries saying that the applicant was detained for an alcohol related event, the FAA could apply the same weight by determining there is enough of a pattern to warrant action.

Think the German Wings guy... while not directly alcohol, the general pattern was happening but wasn't being caught by the right people in the right agencies. You bet they are looking closer now.

True but if he was never arrested than even if his name is on a 30 year old incident report, it might not be in any database. I'd hate to see him report something to the FAA that he didn't need to report and they would never find otherwise and get screwed for it. Giving out too much info to the government can be a bad thing. Of course Bruce or another expert would help him determine if he should report it or not.

I think I might have been put on an SI because I disclosed too much info. I gave them the results of an exam they never asked for in the first place and they referenced that exam in their SI letter.

 

[FirebirdTN]

I have not cancelled YET...I am weighing options. This is getting messy QUICK, and I am getting conflicting info. So far, I have been on the phone with:

Local AME
Local HIMS AME
FAA
Court records where the incident occurred to determine *IF* records are still available

I am in Memphis.

Thanks,

-Alan

 

[flyingron]

Alas, the FAA isn't friendly on this. Absent something showing you were not above .15, they're going to enforce the "you've got an alcohol tolerance" rules on you. A single, low BAC even is onerous, but straight forward. The alcohol tolerance protocol is going to involved more testing and an ABSOLUTE ABSTINENCE (verified) from alcohol.

 

[comanchepilot]

Alan, before posting here - did you search around for any other threads that might be relevant? Or do you always go through life thinking this is the first time something has ever happened because its the first time it happened to you?

You got some learning to do - and I'd get the learning done before the examination. . . . and I'd cancel it immediately. The only way to go into any government examination is knowing you have satisfied all the requirements before you do it. You don't know that yet.

Read the form - what do the words say? Is there a limit on time? Why would think there was then?

I don't care what people think is fair, reasonable, clear or not. If you don't what you don't know - maybe you should learn.

 

[Norman]

I have not cancelled YET...I am weighing options. This is getting messy QUICK, and I am getting conflicting info. So far, I have been on the phone with:

Local AME
Local HIMS AME
FAA
Court records where the incident occurred to determine *IF* records are still available

I am in Memphis.

Thanks,

-Alan

CANCEL NOW! Get ALL of your homework done before considering going to see the AME.

 

[jbrinker]

Sent you a PM. Cancel now while you research. Once it goes live you can't stop the machine. Have your case 100% ready and reviewed before you submit. Contact Dr. Bruce.

 

[FirebirdTN]

I have cancelled my appointment.

comanchepilot-To answer some of your direct questions:

Yes, I DID search for other relevant threads. Although I found a few that closely resembled my circumstance, I found NO OTHER POSTER in which the DUI was received as a juvenile.

You are right, the form did NOT say anything about a time limit; However, again the "juvenile" circumstance in my mind warranted the question. I also found a similar thread in which the advice was basically "you can either jump through hoops, or wait it out past the 10 year mark". Since in my case its been THIRTY YEARS...Hopefully you can at least see where I am coming from.

Thanks,

-Alan

 

[EminiTrader]

Alan - we all get it was 30 years ago. The FAA does not look at 30 years. They look at "DUI". It shows poor judgement regardless of when it happened. A couple of years ago another fella kept calling his dated dui an "oops" we tried to tell him that in his normal life it probably was an "oops" but to the FAA it's a DUI not an OOPS. Not sure whatever happened with that guy.

Look here's the deal. You CAN get through this. It WILL cost you THOUSANDS of dollars, it WILL take you a long time and you WILL jump through many hoops. If you are willing to accept this then by all means contact Dr Bruce and he'll lay it all out for you. If any of this sounds too challenging then hang it up and go sport pilot

Good luck

 

[mtuomi]

Alan - we all get it was 30 years ago. The FAA does not look at 30 years. They look at "DUI". It shows poor judgement regardless of when it happened. A couple of years ago another fella kept calling his dated dui an "oops" we tried to tell him that in his normal life it probably was an "oops" but to the FAA it's a DUI not an OOPS. Not sure whatever happened with that guy.

Look here's the deal. You CAN get through this. It WILL cost you THOUSANDS of dollars, it WILL take you a long time and you WILL jump through many hoops. If you are willing to accept this then by all means contact Dr Bruce and he'll lay it all out for you. If any of this sounds too challenging then hang it up and go sport pilot

Good luck

WILL is a too strong word here, we don't know the circumstances. It might, but it could also be a complete non-issue.

If he finds the paper trail and it says it was a .09, that would mean it won't cost any extra dollars, and won't take any time or hoops.
Or it can be a .35 and be completely non-issuable situation. We just don't have the information to say either way.

 

[AggieMike88]

We just don't have the information to say either way

That's a significant part of the challenge, neither does Alan. And without it, we already know that the FAA will quickly take the "prove it wasn't a big number" point of view.

Alan, my advise is to hold off commenting here (and fanning flames and your frustration) and reach out to Dr. Bruce. Until you hear from an expert such as him, it's all speculation and guessing from us.

 

[FirebirdTN]

That's a significant part of the challenge, neither does Alan. And without it, we already know that the FAA will quickly take the "prove it wasn't a big number" point of view.

Alan, my advise is to hold off commenting here (and fanning flames and your frustration) and reach out to Dr. Bruce. Until you hear from an expert such as him, it's all speculation and guessing from us.

Just for clarification here, since I never actually specified before-AggieMike is correct. I may have blew a .1, I may have blew a .50, or I may have even told the officers to pack sand-I DO NOT REMEMBER.

According to the county clerk in the location of this incident, the records are available, but they will have to dig down "in the archives" so its a starting point. I have reached a hand out to Dr. B, so that is all I can do at this point.

Again as AggieMike said, I think I am going to take his advice and refrain from further comments on my thread. It cannot generate anything productive at this point.

I thank you all for your comments and assistance.

-Alan

 

[bbchien]

Alan I didn't remember anything in the email about depression. I don't have the correspondence at the house, but you need to write me about that.....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Maybe.... But from what Dr. Bruce has taught us in the past, it's better to err on side of caution and obtain the LEO records (there will be a record) of the incident and let the Senior AME aid in the disclosure decision.

He was talking about a DUI from 30 years ago. Problem is, depending on the state, there might or might not be a record with any kind of detail. I had that happen to a client some years ago. All the record showed was the DUI, the conviction and the probationary sentence. We had the BAC but all the important stuff - primarily the probation records of his program attendance, the contents of the program, the analysis of the existence of the problem, had been purged.

 

[murphey]

I have not cancelled YET...I am weighing options. This is getting messy QUICK, and I am getting conflicting info. So far, I have been on the phone with:

Local AME
Local HIMS AME
FAA
Court records where the incident occurred to determine *IF* records are still available

I am in Memphis.

Thanks,

-Alan

Canceling the appt is a non-issue. You can always reschedule. I've had to reschedule many times in the past due to work - going out of town on business, meetings, deadlines, etc. As long as you give them 24 hrs notice, its usually just noise.

 

[azure]

I have not cancelled YET...I am weighing options. This is getting messy QUICK, and I am getting conflicting info. So far, I have been on the phone with:

Local AME
Local HIMS AME
FAA
Court records where the incident occurred to determine *IF* records are still available

I am in Memphis.

Thanks,

-Alan

Canceling may not be strictly necessary. Call the AME's office and see if you can change the appointment type from flight physical to *consultation*. If this AME is someone you would want to work with, they will allow this. Also, find out if the AME has any experience working pilots through cases like yours. There are a number of AMEs across the country who do this, Bruce is one of the great ones but there are others as well. Do not give up on your AME until you have his measure.

And if you go, bring a printed copy of your 8500-8 (i.e. MedXPress) so you can discuss whether there is anything you did or did not not need to disclose. If/when you go ahead with an application, the AME can always add information once the exam is live. And if there are things you should NOT have put down, you can always create another MedXPress account from another email address and fill out another application. As others have said, the MedXPress evaporates if the confirmation code isn't entered within a certain time limit (60 days I think), so you are not committed yet to what you put down.

 

[comanchepilot]

We all know that the FAA will want details - maybe he can get details - maybe not - but the problem here for Alan [@firebirdTN] is that he cannot prove the DUI was 30 years ago.

While 30 years ago is outside the time frame the FAA usually cares about - and being a juvenile where a record 'might be' expunged - he needs to go find out. The mid 80's was long before most states and DMV's maintained computer records and only a few places actually converted the paper records to computer records- and then only for current driver licenses. so if you lived in state A and after the DUI moved to state B and got a license there before about 1992 you're records are likely paper only. Whether a juvenile record has been recorded anywhere for a 1986 DUI is problematic - getting those records are a REAL challenge today.

Which is why you CALL Dr. Bruce - explain the issue - and follow his advice to the letter - one of those is going to be getting a DL from every state you have held a license for the last 20 years at least to prove no alcohol related events. . ..

 

[AggieMike88]

And if you go, bring a printed copy of your 8500-8 (i.e. MedXPress) so you can discuss whether there is anything you did or did not not need to disclose. If/when you go ahead with an application, the AME can always add information once the exam is live.

Adding to this...

If anyone chooses the consult option and brings the printed 8500-8 with them... use scissors to clip off the confirmation code from the bottom and have that in your pocket. This prevents the doc or his staff from entering the code when they shouldn't and making the exam a live one. This especially applies when the airman has issues that definitely need to be sorted out with a consultation.

 

[Matthew]

Like Mike said, if the AME enters that code, that exam is now "live" and has to come to a conclusion.

If the code is not entered, that Medexpress form will eventually time-out and fade away (30-90 days?). You can open a new one then, or use a different email and log in to create a new form if you don't want to wait.

 

[azure]

Adding to this...

If anyone chooses the consult option and brings the printed 8500-8 with them... use scissors to clip off the confirmation code from the bottom and have that in your pocket. This prevents the doc or his staff from entering the code when they shouldn't and making the exam a live one. This especially applies when the airman has issues that definitely need to be sorted out with a consultation.

Well yes... IF you don't trust the AME!

Actually for a first visit to someone you don't know, that might not be a bad idea. But an AME who is a pilot advocate would never do that during a consultation without first making sure the pilot is okay with going ahead with the formal exam. I wouldn't have thought twice about the confirmation code at the bottom when handing a printed copy to my long-time AME back in Michigan - I knew him well enough to know he'd never take a consultation live without my permission.

That said, I'd only hand it directly to the AME, not to the office staff -- too much chance of a miscommunication and accidental entering of the code into the system, if the staff is authorized to do that sort of thing.

 

[AggieMike88]

As you say, I don't trust the office minions.

 

[anonymous]

I know from personal experience in a similar situation that if it's possible, Dr. Chien can help you. It mat not be easy or fast, but if you're willing to listen to his advice and follow his counsel to the letter, (and there will be more than few letters), he's a hell of an advocate.

One other piece of advice: tell him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth!

 

[FirebirdTN]

The appointment was cancelled, and I am working with Dr. B. However, I may have to delay this venture for a little while. This adds a substantial cost that I had not anticipated. This is the first time in a VERY VERY long time that DUI has come back to bite me in the butt. The only other issue it caused me was my military service. I was all set to go in the Air Force, but could not get in because of it. Went Navy instead (no regrets at ALL).

Again, according to the juvenile court clerk, records ARE available. So its time to start doing some digging. Even if I have to delay for a little while to save up some more cash, nothing is stopping me from collecting the needed documentation NOW.

Thanks,

-Alan

 

[MassPilot]

The appointment was cancelled, and I am working with Dr. B. However, I may have to delay this venture for a little while. This adds a substantial cost that I had not anticipated. This is the first time in a VERY VERY long time that DUI has come back to bite me in the butt. The only other issue it caused me was my military service. I was all set to go in the Air Force, but could not get in because of it. Went Navy instead (no regrets at ALL).

Again, according to the juvenile court clerk, records ARE available. So its time to start doing some digging. Even if I have to delay for a little while to save up some more cash, nothing is stopping me from collecting the needed documentation NOW.

Thanks,

-Alan

Good luck! Flying is worth jumping through hoops for.

 

[James331]

30 years ago....


I'd pull a FBI background check on yourself and see if it's even in there, might be a much todo about nothing.

You won't know till you order the $20buck ish report.

 

[comanchepilot]

As you say, I don't trust the office minions.

Dr. Bruce doesn't have minions - one professional to another

 

[FirebirdTN]

30 years ago....


I'd pull a FBI background check on yourself and see if it's even in there, might be a much todo about nothing.

You won't know till you order the $20buck ish report.

I would say I am a highly intelligent fellow, although not terribly bright...I do "get it" though:

Chances are I could fill out another 8500-8, not disclose it, and *probably* get away with it. The likelihood of me being "caught" not disclosing something that old is probably very low. BUT...

IF I got caught not disclosing it, that would be a DEATH sentence for my piloting career FOREVER, and possibly even jail time.

While the added expense, and jumping the necessary hoops is an inconvenience, sure...in the grand scheme of things its pretty minor.

Its just not worth that risk to me. Might be fine for someone else, but I just can't take the chance.

One FINAL question for you folks-and this *might* be a blessing is disguise in some way:

What if I actually obtained all the study material the flight school is going to use, and start studying NOW on my own while I am waiting to get this mess cleared up. Do you think that would possibly give me a little "jump" on things, and actually save me some money in the long run at flight school since I planned on going part 61 anyway?

Thank you all again.

-Alan

 

[Caramon13]

What if I actually obtained all the study material the flight school is going to use, and start studying NOW on my own while I am waiting to get this mess cleared up. Do you think that would possibly give me a little "jump" on things, and actually save me some money in the long run at flight school since I planned on going part 61 anyway?

You're being optimistic, which is good, but I would put everything on hold until you know you can get that medical. Spend your money and time getting the medical.

 

[AggieMike88]

What if I actually obtained all the study material the flight school is going to use, and start studying NOW on my own while I am waiting to get this mess cleared up. Do you think that would possibly give me a little "jump" on things, and actually save me some money in the long run at flight school since I planned on going part 61 anyway?

There is nothing wrong with doing the knowledge study while you're sorting out the medical background issues we've previously discussed here. You could even go as far as loading up your brain with the required information, get the instructor endorsement for the written test, and take the written. All without having the medical certificate in hand.

So yes, that can scratch your aviation itch a small bit and move closer to the PPL goal line.

What texts, videos, and online to use for this home study is another thread and one frequently discussed and debated. And will cause some considerable thread drift from the original medical certification question. I'll just leave it that there are many texts on the FAA website for FREE and NO COST that will work just fine at this juncture. And some are the same texts that the your flight school might be wanting to sell you as a paperback edition. So for the moment, stay with the free items.

Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (PHAK) -- https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf

Airplane Flying Handbook (AFM) - https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...e_handbook/media/airplane_flying_handbook.pdf

Additional Handbooks and Manuals - https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/

 

[Matthew]

You could do all your training up to the solo part without the medical. You could also complete your ground-school written test and get that out of the way - it's good for 2 years (pretty sure), so you'd be setting yourself up a deadline of completion of your checkride from the date of that test. Logged flight time doesn't expire, but you will get rusty and have to do a lot over again if you end up with a layoff because you have any more delays.

It's up to you to decide if that's a good investment of time and money while you wait.