$800 for a flight review

[sarangan]

That's the area where a 2 bedroom shack costs $2 million. They just assume that anyone who can fly there is rich.

While that may be true for real estate, everything else such fuel, food and vehicles cost about the same, or only marginally higher than the rest of the country. The $110/hr CFI is 3 times the local rate here in the midwest. I don't think other professionals earn three times the salaries over there. This has to be aviation-specific, and probably due to the perception of it being a rich mans activity, just like it is in Europe.

 

[ateamer]

United Flight Services or Ocean Air at KWVI. Much lower cost.

 

[RussR]

While that may be true for real estate, everything else such fuel, food and vehicles cost about the same, or only marginally higher than the rest of the country. The $110/hr CFI is 3 times the local rate here in the midwest. I don't think other professionals earn three times the salaries over there. This has to be aviation-specific, and probably due to the perception of it being a rich mans activity, just like it is in Europe.

You can find a $100/hour CFI just down the road from you at Sporty's: https://sportysacademy.com/price-list/

 

[Bonchie]

$110/hr is just insane.

I've seen some places that try to charge about that much by bundling plane/CFI rates (only $250/hr for the plane and CFI!!!) but I don't think I've ever seen someone actually advertise a stand alone rate that high.

Going rate around here is $30-50. And that's not for cut rate either. The guy who's $30 is in his 60s, still flies charters, and is an excellent instructor.

 

[weilke]

While that may be true for real estate, everything else such fuel, food and vehicles cost about the same, or only marginally higher than the rest of the country. The $110/hr CFI is 3 times the local rate here in the midwest. I don't think other professionals earn three times the salaries over there. This has to be aviation-specific, and probably due to the perception of it being a rich mans activity, just like it is in Europe.

Well, many jobs in the bay area do make three times as much , but anyone who is not part of that bubble doesn't. Kind of like NYC. If you are on a national income scale but forced to live in those places you are going to suffer.

Now the $110 for the CFI has to pay for California business taxes, San Jose local business taxes, an airport authority gross receipts tax and the above average rent on the facility (+ bribes to the hordes of inspectors and auditors that come with every level of local government). The CFI makes the same as anywhere else, it's all the other mooches that have to be fed that make it so expensive.

 

[bflynn]

Why are they asking for so much time? By regulations, FR needs to be 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flying. Anything else is them padding their nest.

I don't care what they "need"...the FAA needs 2 hours total.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why are they asking for so much time? By regulations, FR needs to be 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flying. Anything else is them padding their nest.

I don't care what they "need"...the FAA needs 2 hours minimum.

FTFY. Not saying more time is required, but the FAA does not say more time is not required.

 

[RussR]

Why are they asking for so much time? By regulations, FR needs to be 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flying. Anything else is them padding their nest.

I don't care what they "need"...the FAA needs 2 hours total.

Padding their nest? Not necessarily. If you call me for a flight review, I will tell you to set aside at least 3 hours for it. See, I don't know you at all - if you're on the ball and proficient, we may finish in less time, and that's great, but if you're not, and we have to work on some things it will take longer. Everybody's happy if they come in under an estimate. But you'd be astounded at the number of pilots out there who are just barely capable of getting the airplane in the air - even pilots who fly regularly.

While their rates are a separate issue, the school MAY have just seen so many people coming in hoping to get a quickie FR that end up needing more time, maybe they just plan for a longer schedule so they can work on that stuff that needs work, if needed.

Or like someone else posted, they thought he was looking for a new-renter aircraft checkout, and didn't know he had G1000 time.

 

[bflynn]

Padding their nest? Not necessarily. If you call me for a flight review, I will tell you to set aside at least 3 hours for it. See, I don't know you at all - if you're on the ball and proficient, we may finish in less time, and that's great, but if you're not, and we have to work on some things it will take longer. Everybody's happy if they come in under an estimate. But you'd be astounded at the number of pilots out there who are just barely capable of getting the airplane in the air - even pilots who fly regularly.

So what you're saying is that you have a 1 hour minimum ground / 1 hour minimum air time. You schedule for longer in case of delays, but you only require an hour each.

FAR 61.65, partial

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:

(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and

(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.​

Section (b) is for glider pilots, (f) is for CFIs.

If someone is saying 2 hours minimum, then I have to wonder what they are evaluating. Heck, my private checkride barely took an hour, would this school be trying to train me on more than you do on a checkride?

It is a training flight. If CFIs keep treating it as an evaluation, pretty soon it will be.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I'll do it for a hundo, but you gotta supply the plane. but I'm not in the bay area.

And I can attest that he does a good job!

 

[Hippike]

Little further south of you OP, in the Santa Monica region, CFIs charge $100 - $120 per hour, so no surprises there regarding CFI rates. (same for aircraft rental rates).

Something to consider for the future: the FAA's Wings program is a good way to get credits which will apply toward the ground portion of a FR and can save you a lot of money. Get enough wings credits and next time you need a flight review, you only need to pay for the flight portion.

https://www.faasafety.gov/WINGS/pub/learn_more.aspx

 

[RussR]

So what you're saying is that you have a 1 hour minimum ground / 1 hour minimum air time. You schedule for longer in case of delays, but you only require an hour each.


If someone is saying 2 hours minimum, then I have to wonder what they are evaluating. Heck, my private checkride barely took an hour, would this school be trying to train me on more than you do on a checkride?

It is a training flight. If CFIs keep treating it as an evaluation, pretty soon it will be.

I said they're "not necessarily" padding their nest - it's impossible to tell with the limited information we actually know so far. All the rest is just speculation.

I don't schedule longer "in case of delays". I schedule longer because I know, through experience, that most pilots aren't quite the hotshots they think they are. Almost everybody needs a little work to achieve PTS tolerances on whatever we're doing.

I might be reading you wrong, but you seem to believe that as long as you fly for an hour, you should be signed off. But it's not just "refresher training", it IS also an evaluation to a certain degree. If you cannot perform the tasks asked of you to standards, you won't be signed off. And yes, it's possible it will take longer than the flight on your checkride - primarily because when you took that, you WERE proficient and within standards and did everything great the first time. On your FR, though, you may not have done any of the typical items for 2 years or more. So, when we do a simulated engine failure, and you end up completely missing the field you were aiming for, we're going to do it again. That takes time.

 

[sarangan]

You can find a $100/hour CFI just down the road from you at Sporty's: https://sportysacademy.com/price-list/

You made me look that up. CFI rate is actually $42/hr at Sporty's. Gold seal instructor is $52, and Master instructor is $62, and Senior instructor (whatever that means) is $100. I doubt one would need to hire the topmost dog at Sporty's for a simple flight review.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I just called another school. CFI is $80 but suggests 4 hours of ground school.

4 hours of ground for a Flight Review!

You would save money doing something like a seaplane addon in lieu of an FR.

They are basically saying they have enough students as is and don’t want to deal with some random guy off the street.

 

[MetalCloud]

Both of the CFIs I worked with (one through a school and one direct for my Cirrus) were both ~$100/hour direct. Flight school took none of that. There were cheaper instructors but they were damn well worth it. In fact I told my CSIP he should raise his rates.

OP.... Call Jeff at Advantage Aviation in Palo Alto. It won't be $800... that's a rip off, even at Bay Area prices.

 

[rene86mx]

Both of the CFIs I worked with (one through a school and one direct for my Cirrus) were both ~$100/hour direct. Flight school took none of that. There were cheaper instructors but they were damn well worth it. In fact I told my CSIP he should raise his rates.

OP.... Call Jeff at Advantage Aviation in Palo Alto. It won't be $800... that's a rip off, even at Bay Area prices.

Just called Advantage Aviation, very different tone. They said: let's book 2 hours and we'll see if you need them. Very different to the mandatory minimum other schools wanted.

Will also do the Wings program. I love to keep reading and learning so not something I'd consider a waste of time.

 

[MetalCloud]

Just called Advantage Aviation, very different tone. They said: let's book 2 hours and we'll see if you need them. Very different to the mandatory minimum other schools wanted.

Will also do the Wings program. I love to keep reading and learning so not something I'd consider a waste of time.

Rock!!! Advantage is great.

 

[denverpilot]

I thought it kind of interesting that very little mention was made of WINGS, another FAA-favorite way to accomplish a flight review. I know of instructors who would ask whether the pilot has done enough courses for credit, assign homework if not, and tailor the flight portion to cover three flight credits. With a proficient pilot and a CFI with a decent plan of action, it can be done in an hour.

I mention it and go in and take the extra five minutes after an FR (or anything that counts really) to give the person credit as a way to spark their interest. All these years and all sorts of people simply know nothing about it.

I figure telling folks I’m giving them “free” credit for something in the program will spark a little interest and they’ll go log in and look at it and ask if they have questions.

A little Freakonomics Psychology... who wouldn’t want something that’s FREE!

I do need to figure out if that website is mobile browser friendly. I usually go do it at home later, but it would be easier to add it to my own post-flight checklist to just do it from the mobile gadgetry... just haven’t tried it yet.

 

[BigBadLou]

Just called Advantage Aviation, very different tone. They said: let's book 2 hours and we'll see if you need them. Very different to the mandatory minimum other schools wanted.

Will also do the Wings program. I love to keep reading and learning so not something I'd consider a waste of time.

Glad to hear!

Otherwise I'd agree that you sure should have a pick of the "instructor" from their catalog and what Victoria Secret lingerie she'd be wearing. Escort services have been trying to pose as legal businesses for decades but this is the first one I've heard of that uses a flight school as their front.

 

[mscard88]

Last FR I did a few weeks ago cost the victim, uh, pilot $240, C172 $150, CFI $45/hour x two hours (flight & ground).

 

[mscard88]

So what you're saying is that you have a 1 hour minimum ground / 1 hour minimum air time. You schedule for longer in case of delays, but you only require an hour each.


If someone is saying 2 hours minimum, then I have to wonder what they are evaluating. Heck, my private checkride barely took an hour, would this school be trying to train me on more than you do on a checkride?

It is a training flight. If CFIs keep treating it as an evaluation, pretty soon it will be.

You quote the FAR requiring one hour ground and one hour flight, minimum. That's two hours minimum. CFI has no choice, it's required. Why do you have a beef with a CFI charging two hours minimum for a FR?

 

[1RTK1]

Can't you find a flying club near their with a CFI?? Who's plane do you fly every 2-3 weeks, take it to a private CFI and do it that way.

 

[bflynn]

Why do you have a beef with a CFI charging two hours minimum for a FR?

I don't.

I have a beef with a school demanding 4 hours minimum for a FR and then expecting it will go longer. I'm also not crazy with CFIs changing a training flight into an evaluation flight because that means in a few years the FAA will catch on and say that it might as well be an evaluation flight because "that's what CFIs are already doing".

Take someone up for training. If they aren't up to at least solo standards, share your concerns and don't sign them. But this stuff about "well, we'll pile on the things that I think make you safe" until you've turned it into a half day+ affair is wrong. What if an instructor believes (as some have expressed here within the past week) that a pilot needs to demonstrate a spin. Can a CFI require spins on a FR in order to prove that you're safe? Maybe it really needs night flights as well, simulated IMC and let's throw in some simulator time.

That isn't the purpose. It's to make sure that you're getting contact with an instructor and continuously learning.

 

[Mike Smith]

I think this thread shines a light on the problem someone’s has if they don’t have a relationship with a CFI.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't.

I have a beef with a school demanding 4 hours minimum for a FR and then expecting it will go longer. I'm also not crazy with CFIs changing a training flight into an evaluation flight because that means in a few years the FAA will catch on and say that it might as well be an evaluation flight because "that's what CFIs are already doing".

Take someone up for training. If they aren't up to at least solo standards, share your concerns and don't sign them. But this stuff about "well, we'll pile on the things that I think make you safe" until you've turned it into a half day+ affair is wrong. What if an instructor believes (as some have expressed here within the past week) that a pilot needs to demonstrate a spin. Can a CFI require spins on a FR in order to prove that you're safe? Maybe it really needs night flights as well, simulated IMC and let's throw in some simulator time.

That isn't the purpose. It's to make sure that you're getting contact with an instructor and continuously learning.

So what do you recommend they learn, if not something that the instructor thinks will keep them safe?

 

[mscard88]

I don't.

I have a beef with a school demanding 4 hours minimum for a FR and then expecting it will go longer. I'm also not crazy with CFIs changing a training flight into an evaluation flight because that means in a few years the FAA will catch on and say that it might as well be an evaluation flight because "that's what CFIs are already doing".

Take someone up for training. If they aren't up to at least solo standards, share your concerns and don't sign them. But this stuff about "well, we'll pile on the things that I think make you safe" until you've turned it into a half day+ affair is wrong. What if an instructor believes (as some have expressed here within the past week) that a pilot needs to demonstrate a spin. Can a CFI require spins on a FR in order to prove that you're safe? Maybe it really needs night flights as well, simulated IMC and let's throw in some simulator time.

That isn't the purpose. It's to make sure that you're getting contact with an instructor and continuously learning.

Well, one does have the option to terminate the FR with a CFI, and take it with someone else. It really is more of an evaluation than training flight though. If the evaluation shows a pilot lacking, then then training is suggested. Your call whether to take the suggestion though. You just won't get sign off for a FR though.

 

[RussR]

I don't.

I'm also not crazy with CFIs changing a training flight into an evaluation flight because that means in a few years the FAA will catch on and say that it might as well be an evaluation flight because "that's what CFIs are already doing".

(snip)

That isn't the purpose. It's to make sure that you're getting contact with an instructor and continuously learning.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that a FR isn't an evaluation flight. Rather it can be both a training flight AND an evaluation flight, but is most certainly an evaluation of the pilot's abilities.

Here, from the FAA's own "Conducting an Effective Flight Review", https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/media/flight_review.pdf , second paragraph:

"The purpose of the flight review required by Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) 61.56 is to provide for a regular evaluation of pilot skills and aeronautical knowledge."

And from AC 61-98C https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-98C.pdf :

"a. Intent of Flight Review. A flight review is a routine evaluation of a pilot’s ability to conduct safe flight."

How about from the AOPA? "Pilots Guide to the Flight Review" https://download.aopa.org/epilot/2007/sa03.pdf

"It is a cooperative endeavor to provide the pilot with a periodic assessment of his or her flying skills..."

Now, before I conduct a flight review, I always ask the pilot if there are any certain areas they want to work on, new things they want to try, etc. Because while it's an evaluation, it should be enjoyable and educational as well. In the past, I've done tailwind landings, landings with X-wind exceeding the demonstrated value, all kinds of different emergencies, etc. I've had pilots voluntarily fly longer than needed, past when I was satisfied, because they wanted to work more on some areas. Instrument-rated pilots will often want to throw in an approach or two in order to stay current (and get feedback on how much they've forgotten). In my opinion, that's the type of Flight Review all pilots should desire - one where you're learning so much that you want to keep flying.

 

[MetalCloud]

I think this thread shines a light on the problem someone’s has if they don’t have a relationship with a CFI.

Yes and no. I did a BFR recently with a CSIP I'd never worked with before. First time flying with him. He asked some questions before we met to get a sense of how to structure the review. I'm guessing it's probably pretty clear up front if you know your stuff or if you don't. I've done about 220 hours in the the last 12 months, and frankly I wouldn't expect my BFR to go 4 hours, unless I'm getting 3 hours of training bundled in. We did about an hour of ground and a little over 1 flying.

It went much, much easier than I expected. I was thinking it would be grueling, almost like another check ride. I kinda wish it was, because it frankly scares me that someone who's flown like 7 hours in 2 years can get a CFI buddy to sign him off.

 

[G-force]

I'm in the greater Los Angeles area and a steam gauge/430 172 is $127/hr and cfi $60. My BFR a few months ago was $250. It would be cheaper for you to fly Southwest down here, rent a car, do the bfr, and fly back!

 

[j1b3h0]

While at first it seems like 4hrs @ $110 is a rip-off, if you’re way not current and or you’ll be doing the review in an aircraft with which you’re not familiar, well, I could see that. $110hr sounds outrageous, I only charge 100. But hey, what would you pay a golf pro, or tennis instructor. A good flight instructor is worth every penny if, after flying with him you feel confident and safe. Also the $110 should be for an ATP, CFIAI, not a 300hr total time person - that’s rich.

 

[benyflyguy]

I'm trying to schedule a flight review in the SJC area

I called a flight school and they want 2 ground + 2 flight review

Their rates are $110 for the CFI and $185 for a C172 G1000.

I think it is expensive, does somebody know of a better option in the bay area?

Thanks

Who supplies the lube... for those prices it better be the good stuff.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm in the greater Los Angeles area and a steam gauge/430 172 is $127/hr and cfi $60. My BFR a few months ago was $250. It would be cheaper for you to fly Southwest down here, rent a car, do the bfr, and fly back!

Good lord. Does the school also provide a van down by the river for the CFI to sleep in, at those prices in LA?

I could see it elsewhere but $60 is pretty damn bad in LA, considering your ridiculous housing costs.

 

[James331]

You made me look that up. CFI rate is actually $42/hr at Sporty's. Gold seal instructor is $52, and Master instructor is $62, and Senior instructor (whatever that means) is $100. I doubt one would need to hire the topmost dog at Sporty's for a simple flight review.

You have to pay and pay to renew a master CFI right?

Plus you only need 500 TT to get a master CFI, no way you are a master of CFIing with only 500TT, heck that’s hard min hours to fly skydivers in a “well it runs” 182.

Should have gone
CFI
CFI Gold seal
CFI/ATP Gold seal

 

[asicer]

Good lord. Does the school also provide a van down by the river for the CFI to sleep in, at those prices in LA?

I could see it elsewhere but $60 is pretty damn bad in LA, considering your ridiculous housing costs.

Maybe they're independently wealthy and are just doing the CFI thing to give back to the community, seed the next generation, keep from being bored in retirement, etc.

Or the mortgage is fixed rate from long ago and they're just covering the non-house expenses.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe they're independently wealthy and are just doing the CFI thing to give back to the community, seed the next generation, keep from being bored in retirement, etc.

Or the mortgage is fixed rate from long ago and they're just covering the non-house expenses.

I don’t think $60/hr would cover the mortgages my family had out there in 1991-1992. Let alone today.

A shoebox was a million dollar house out there back then.

When the job moved them from LA to Houston the realtor was all ****ed that they could afford something way bigger than the three story monstrosity with a pool out back, with the proceeds from selling said California shoebox, and they refused to buy bigger. LOL.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You have to pay and pay to renew a master CFI right?

Plus you only need 500 TT to get a master CFI, no way you are a master of CFIing with only 500TT, heck that’s hard min hours to fly skydivers in a “well it runs” 182.

Should have gone
CFI
CFI Gold seal
CFI/ATP Gold seal

Speaking as a Gold Seal instructor, I wouldn't say that's worth an extra $10/hour, either.

But marketing is marketing, and that's what Gold Seal is all about.

Master Instructor also requires aviation teaching activities a little beyond pounding around the patch in a 152, so I might give more credence to that.

But my bottom line is that whichever instructor gives me the best value is the one I'd pay for, regardless of whether it's $42/hour or $100/hour.

 

[DFH65]

This spring I did my complex and HP and incorporated an FR figured I was paying for the CFI and plane anyway.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Just completed a flight review with my original CFI (Jess Everson at Advanced Pilot Training near Eugene Oregon) that took 1.3 on the Hobbs (@ $125/hr plane, $50/hour CFI) and 1.2 hours ground (@ $50/hour CFI). He did ask if I had done Wings phases, which he recommended when I was scheduling things with him, but I had not paid attention to Wings stuff in a couple years. If I had invested the time on the Wings program (several hours, I'm estimating) I suppose I'd have saved ~$60 not having to do ground. Otherwise it was $287.50 for my flight review with someone who I now consider a friend that I only see once in a great while.

 

[rene86mx]

Following up

Just did my first Flight Review... $600
2 hours ground. The CFI said it was more than enough
2.5 on the air.

Great service and experience with Advantage Aviation. Would recommend them

Now one question:
1. How CFI's pick their hourly price? I saw some young CFIs and part-time (no CFII, no Gold Seal, etc.) pricing at more than $100 while the old school guys were pricing at $70-$80

 

[1RTK1]

Local independent CFI’s/CFII’s are going for $50/hour in my neck of the woods.