8/10 Students Leaving, My turn

[bigblockz8]

Some More CFI Issues

I have heard from many sources that 79-85% of students never finish their training. I have also heard that this is generally post solo, only about 40% of this drop out is pre solo.

Some info/data to read http://www.aopa.org/ftinitiative/

I am a pre-solo student. Today was my final lesson for the foreseeable future unless I get lucky and win one of the many scholarships,contests, or jobs that I applied for.

My reasons for leaving?

• Cost! (if the other issues weren't here I'd gladly shut my mouth about cost)

• Training that sucks (Microsoft FSX has "taught*" me more about how to fly and my CFI acts more like a safety net when I attempt to put sim learning to use...little to no instruction occurs in the air or on the ground No guidance.)

• CFI's that don't give a rat's ***!

• The amount of trial and error involved ( I mean this by looking for new CFIs or looking for a new flight school just to find that they don't match)

• The impersonal numeric feeling. I'm just another transaction in the accounting books.

I have always wanted to fly but in my flight training my love has disappeared.

I now have more fun at home with a computer program than I do in the air. My computer is never late, never has excuses,never unprepared and is never vague.

I wake up wanting to fly. The more that I fly (in a training environment at least) the less I like it. I generally bum a ride once every several months in order to keep the flame lit. I find that I absolutely HATE learning to fly thanks to the training environment issues.

I am tired of the CFI's that are "yeah yeah get in and let me fly, I NEED TIME!" or the CFI's that're "Do what ever you want, I just need the time. If you're gonna crash I'll help you, just make sure that I'm not texting."

I think that costs only cause about 30% of all dropouts. Family/health maybe 20%. The experience, in my opinion, accounts for the majority. I do believe that about 30% are reasons that are out of GA's control. It's more so a combination of all of the factors.

Here was my day (today, a SUNDAY!) as an example, this is typical:

I arrived at 7:42 am

Pushed to the pumps at 7:46

Another pilot fueled the plane as I preflighted

Fueling/pre-flight complete: 7:52am

Plane is retied, ready to go, plugged in, and fp filed, only need a code 7:57am

CFI Arrives: 8:24am
CFI ready: 8:32 am
8:50 we takeoff

9:48 we land after 6 to's/ldg's

10:06 done debriefing, the first debriefing that I have ever had in 16 flights!

(I log this in order to ensure that I don't get another 2.5hr CFI time bill for a CFI that was there for 1.9hrs)

This is the 4/4 time he was late by 10 or more minutes. I've had 2 cancelled lessons for personal reasons on his part and 2 thanks to wx ( I don't mind wx issues.) I talked to the chief CFI and that didn't work out. In summary I am DONE with this nonsense.

Here is an excerpt from my CFI issue thread to clear up some preconceived notions formed by uninformed people:

"CFI#
1. Got a 737 F/O job

2. Got a CRJ seat (didn't care too much)

3.Too unprofessional. He told me not to preflight and that we only need to call out base and final. He also liked to start maneuvers without clearing turns. One lesson and left.

4. Got a job with Columbia Helicopters (was a bit unprepared)

5. Too many students, booked 2 months in advance. I flew with him by calling daily at 8 am for any cancellations.

6. He got a job at USAir

7. Current CFI

My current CFI is the one that is bothering me. He is always late and unprepared. His instruction is average (#6 was the best CFI) but it's the attitude that upsets me. He has a qausi-professional attitude. He is by-the-book in some respects but in others he is as laid back as a cop on the take."

I have had a grand total of 7 CFI's in my 13hrs (15hrs if you want to add heli and glider),10 CFI's including intro flights. One was a great CFI ( the best pilot that I have ever known, he is like Sean Tucker or Capt. Sully but in a 172, he left the school) , most others were CRJ right seat bound and they didn't care.

CFI's are the face of aviation. Airline pilots are not! To the general public those grey haired, well seasoned jet jocks may be but for aviation as a whole; you must learn to fly, instructors teach just that.

Bad instruction=Bad pilot= Bad reputation for GA and Aviation as a whole.

*I mean this by point and you go, which OBVIOUSLY isn't true. FSX is just a game. This point is for comparison to a widely known game about flying versus a human aviation "professional."
FSX is good for some tasks such as flying a DC-3 and then flying a Lear 45 though.

 

[Arbiter419]

I can't argue with you on the money part, I wouldn't give that school another dime though. I know we've talked about the CCBC route, that is an option. But yeah, don't give those clowns another dime, and let them know exactly why you're leaving.

 

[bigblockz8]

I can't argue with you on the money part, I wouldn't give that school another dime though. I know we've talked about the CCBC route, that is an option. But yeah, don't give those clowns another dime, and let them know exactly why you're leaving.

I was set for CCBC (baltimore, not beaver) but thanks to my GED coming a DAY late, I can't register and therefore, no fed student aid, so no lab fee loan to cover flight training. If that would have worked out I'd be changing my school and possibly my major right now.

 

[AdamZ]

Well you might want to change your sig line then because it appears you have given up.

Sorry you have had such a crappy experience with instruction, mine was fortunately just the opposite. Have you tried other airports than freeway? Martin State perhaps. 10 CFIs in 13 hours is insane and I can understand how angry that would make you at the process. The only thing I can offer is if Aviation is truly a passion then try to find another school. If money is the main reason then the time it takes to save may very well resolve the problem for you Best of Luck with what ever you decide to do.

 

[skidoo]

I learned when I was 14 to 18. Never had experiences like yours. I only took a lesson once a month (due to cost). The instructor was always there when I showed up and had a plan for what was to be learned. several times I was pleasantly surprised when he had me fly a taildragger and then took me out and landed in a cow field. Other times we went up for aerobatics even pre-solo. Each time there was something new. I was fortunate back then. There were no computers for home flight sim. And the airport was close enough that I could ride my bicycle to the airport.

I only had a couple of instructors. The first was younger, maybe in his late 20's early 30's. The second one was way old compared to me and very experienced. He had no plans to go anywhere and had nothing else to prove, but teach well. For that, I am thankful!

Maybe things have changed a lot since back then, maybe not. But, I think you are simply unfortunate to be at your location.

 

[MickYoumans]

I too would suggest trying to find another flight school. I went through frustrations when I first started flying 30 years ago. The instructors at our airport also did crop dusting and were more concerned with dusting than students. I would sit at the airport for hours after work waiting to get a lesson and most of the time not even getting up in the air. Fortunately my wife's uncle was a retired General from the Air Force that was also a certified instructor. He asked me how my lessons were coming along one night and I told him the frustrations I was encountering. To make a long story short I bought my own Cessna 150 and he taught me how to fly. He was an awesome instructor and I'm so grateful he became my teacher because he was so much better than the other CFI's at the airport. I hate to thiink of what I would have missed out on in life had I not finished my training and gotten my license. I hope you can take a step back and weigh other options that might be available to you. Hopefully you can find an alternate workable solution. If you truely have a passion for flying, it will not go away because of some poor CFI's. Good luck to you!

 

[EppyGA]

So you're a computer whiz kid who thinks he's taught himself how to fly with MSFX and you had a bad day today, as evidenced by your other thread, so you've decided to can it. Have fun, see ya.

 

[Jeanie]

Flying camp is still an option, Greg if you change your mind. I'm never late and I'm not "building time"

 

[fgcason]

Obviously no one can get anywhere if they change instructors every flight. 10 instructor at 13 hrs is pretty much that. At 1,000 hours, you'll never be ready to solo if each flight is a different instructor. Consistency is everything. And if you're treated like a number in the ledger, you are flying with the wrong people.
Have you considered going to a little podunk nothing airport for instruction? There might be 2-3 instructors on the whole airport or just the one and no committee business operation with a chief instructor in an office. Sure those places are looked down upon in today's glitz society however the ancient instructors there are instructing because they love to teach. Hand them an ideal high paying ATP job and they'll roll their eyes and walk away to climb into the faded paint 150 with torn seats with a new 15 year old student and poop rainbows because they're so happy. IMO the 60+ year old with 30,000 hours in a ratty noisy 150 wearing shorts and a tshirt is better quality instruction than any 250 hour ATP bound 25 year old with the most modern plane available. Quality flight instruction is about the instructor, not the clothes and not the airplane. That said, I had a 20 something instructor that is probably flying airliners around the world now. BUT when he was teaching me, his only concern at that point in his long term goal was to be the best instructor he could be and damned the next step up the ladder until he took care of his students first. He knew that instructing was the best way to learn about flying. I was his first priority, not the commuter jobs. That is the kind of stuff you're looking for. Beyond him I've done my best to fly with the ancient instructors at podunk nowhere. Seriously, go find the old fart at a quiet half run down airport and the well worn 150 and go for a flight with him.

This may be a shock to you however MSFS is a total cockup. It is a toy. You do not put what you learned there on your own to use in a real airplane. Yea, sure it sort of vaguely behaves like an airplane and looks like one on the little tv screen however it is a major reality disconnect. It does not fly right, it doesn't behave right, it actually teaches you how to thoroughly kill yourself in a real airplane. There is a time and place for it to assist in learning however primary flight training is not that place. Be humble. Forget everything you learned on the toy and start at the very beginning. "I want to fly, I know nothing, teach me what an airplane is and how to fly it properly."

Learning to fly is as much about the student as the instructor. Both have to approach it humbly with the same goals in mind. Flying is a perpetual license to learn whether you have 0 hours or 30,000 hours. That means everyone involved must be totally humble and brutally down to earth honest with no image or status at all every single time you get near an airplane.

And yes, I've flown with a few that are like you describe. They only get the one flight for a rental checkout and that is generally it. A few have scared me with what they did that they shouldn't do. I'm not beyond taking a vacation and driving 600+ miles for the BFR's or proficiency instruction in reliable ratty old planes and ancient instructors.

Start at the beginning.

 

[PeteJE]

If you really want it, you will stick with it and make it happen in a way you are satisfied with.

Your experience is a good example of how many high-level activities are in life. If you go on to any high profession or business ownership, expect just as much trial and misery, but, you can transform and control your situation. The main ingredient is perseverance and patience to know the results you want can be had even if it takes extraordinary effort on your part.

If, as it seems, the goal is not worth the trouble then you have your answer now. That takes some soul searching, but, somehow I read in your post that you really might want this bad enough to regret giving it up.

 

[L.Adamson]

This may be a shock to you however MSFS is a total cockup. It is a toy. You do not put what you learned there on your own to use in a real airplane.

Which really means...............you haven't kept up on the progression of MSFS over the years. For many years now, 3rd party development involving real pilots, and programmers with years of experience, have certainly brought the sim to substantial training levels. The product is now owned by Lockheed Martin (Prepare 3D). Never the less...............it's not still one of those products, in which some un-knowing flight instructor can still say.........that you'll just have to unlearn everything.

L.Adamson

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I flew twice yesterday and once last weekend and hung out at the airport both weekends and used my ICOM radio to listen to the CTAF and watch planes land. I hope to do this every weekend.

If it really is your passion, you'll come back one day. I went through a lot of dislike for my CFI but nothing like you and now when people ask me about flight schools I always tell them to thoroughly research each one.

 

[jesse]

Training that sucks (Microsoft FSX has "taught" me how to fly and my CFI is more like a safety net when I attempt to put sim learning to us)

I seriously doubt that. If you believe that then your perceptions are distorted by your own ego.

Here was my day (today, a SUNDAY!) as an example, this is typical:

I arrived at 7:42 am

Pushed to the pumps at 7:46

Another pilot fueled the plane as I preflighted

Fueling/pre-flight complete: 7:52am

Plane is retied, ready to go, plugged in, and fp filed, only need a code 7:57am

CFI Arrives: 8:24am
CFI ready: 8:32 am
8:50 we takeoff

9:48 we land after 6 to's/ldg's

10:06 done debriefing

This is the 4/4 time he was late by 10 or more minutes. I've had 2 cancelled lessons for personal reasons on his part and 2 thanks to wx ( I don't mind wx issues.) I've talked to the chief CFI and that didn't work out. In summary I am DONE.

What time was the CFI scheduled to show up?

I, on behalf of others like myself, would like to say that I have lost a great love due in part to crap that shouldn't happen. I have had a grand total of 10 CFI's in my 13hrs, seven CFI's excluding intro flights. One was a great CFI ( the best pilot that I have ever known, he is like Sean Tucker or Capt. Sully but in a 172) , the others are all right seat bound and they don't care.

Honestly, if your experience were typical at their school, they wouldn't be in business. Some of your posts seem to have a very strong "know-it-all attitude". I don't know you in person, but I am strongly starting to suspect there is another side to this story.

PS: To the idiot in the red and black 172N @ W00 at 9:20 am, what the hell was with that 45 degree dive from downwind to final for 18? You dove about 500 down and landed with an airplane still on roll out! The second time when I was taking off you didn't make any calls and dove yet again from TPA on downwind to final. You landed behind me and somehow cut me off on downwind. I'd like to know your name,address, and pilot #.

If you read this, you ****ed off and endangered the other four planes in the pattern along with the people on the ground. No calls or anything! You sure did go around and haul a** out of Freeway when you were asked to identify yourself, please identify yourself 28K!

I really doubt you're qualified to make such strong statements towards another pilot. He "dove" from downwind? I don't know what you've been taught but one cannot land if they don't descend. If he was "diving" so aggressively as you so put, then he would have been too fast to land. NO metal was bent. Perhaps you've over-reacting to this. If he landed behind you, how did he cut you off, etc.

I suggest you just chill a bit. Think things through. You are a young student that seems to be having an abnormally difficult time with instructors while you post writings that are abnormally strongly worded. That is an equation that makes me think.

Nothing frustrates me more then students who want to attack other pilots because they think they know more then a certificated pilot that was indeed following the rules. Quite frankly in your little "rant" there I don't see anything that the other pilot that did was illegal nor do I see anything that was unsafe. The likelihood that you were truly aware of the situation given your experience is pretty damn slim.

Check your attitude and perhaps your experiences will improve. My first instructor was often late and I was a 17 year old high school drop out working full time paying for my living and my flying myself. I didn't like it, but I made the best of the cards I had and tolerated it. I walked away a pilot. Was his behavior professional? No. But sometimes you have to tolerate things to move forward. It sounds to me like your attitude causes you to shut down and develop perceptions that are distorted at best.

You won't always get your way, and that even applies when you're paying someone. There are only so many instructors. If you really wanted to learn how to fly you'd dial your rants down and find someone that you can work with, even if they're less than ideal. Yes, that is the real world. There are pilots being created in your area. They're managing to do it -- you could too.

Had I fired every instructor that has been late for my lessons then I wouldn't be a pilot right now because I'd be out of instructors.

 

[HDunk]

My first lessons where in 1963 and I didn't get rated till 1971. After over 15,000 hours of instruction given, charter and coporated work. The reason are same in 63 or 2012.. Money, poor instructors just using instructing for a staircase to a dream. Identify the airports that you are willing to commute to, go sit around and listen to comments from students and instructors... you will find that instructor that wants to instruct. Save your money till you do. Finding "that" one is there and might even have a waiting list to start with them.

Have a Great Day

 

[murphey]

Join the local EAA chapter. Join the local CAP cadet squadron. Just by listening to these people you'll learn 1) more about airplanes in general 2) more about flying procedures and 3) who's a good CFI in the area and who isn't. Besides, it'll look good on a resume.

 

[Tom-D]

As I've read the OP posts, I'm of the opinion that it is more of a students attitude, than a deficiency in the system.

 

[Ddayle]

You need a balding or grey haired CFI and a plane with 40 yr old paint. everything else is just a distraction, and unnecessary to the task of learning to fly.

 

[Alexb2000]

Others have already said it, but I thought I would too.

There will always be barriers, sometimes significant, to getting whatever you want in life. I slept in a car during college, and did two tours in the Military to pay for it. All along the way someone or something was trying to stop me from getting where I wanted to go (or worse). In time you learn that the indifferent obstacles (like your CFI) are the easiest ones to get past, they have no interest in your failure.

I suspect that if your life depended on you getting your ticket, or at least you believed it did, the CFI could spit in your face every morning and you'd still get it done.

Maybe you should just go out on a flight with another pilot, friend, etc. and just enjoy the flight and give your brain a chance to reboot without being in a training environment. If afterwards you decide that you still want this, then consider the above level of commitment, if not then you can walk away having made a cool rational decision after due consideration.

 

[The Old Man]

This may be a shock to you however MSFS is a total cockup. It is a toy. You do not put what you learned there on your own to use in a real airplane. Yea, sure it sort of vaguely behaves like an airplane and looks like one on the little tv screen however it is a major reality disconnect. It does not fly right, it doesn't behave right, it actually teaches you how to thoroughly kill yourself in a real airplane. There is a time and place for it to assist in learning however primary flight training is not that place. Be humble. Forget everything you learned on the toy and start at the very beginning. "I want to fly, I know nothing, teach me what an airplane is and how to fly it properly."

Amen, Frank.

90% of flying is response to visual (including peripheral vision), aural and tactile clues. No matter how good MSFS gets, without wrap-around screens, full motion, full feedback, and Dolby sound, it is not any good for primary instruction. There is no way, repeat, no way you can "learn to fly" using that game.

Further amen to the greybeard instructors that instruct because they love to instruct. That describes mine to a "T". He took the time to understand my motivations and objectives and taught me what I needed to acheive those goals. I am sure that there were many lessons where his tongue was bleeding because he was biting it to keep from chewing me out juat as mine was for the same reasons. But now I know that in my case, it was mostly frustration when I couldn't get the exact results I wanted. But we both held our tongues (for the most part) and weathered the ups and downs that are part of the learning experience.

 

[L.Adamson]

Amen, Frank.

90% of flying is response to visual (including peripheral vision), aural and tactile clues. No matter how good MSFS gets, without wrap-around screens, full motion, full feedback, and Dolby sound, it is not any good for primary instruction. There is no way, repeat, no way you can "learn to fly" using that game.

I also do not believe it's the way...........to learn to fly (or at least the total way). But on the other hand, there is going to be lot's of disagreement across the internet, regarding it's value along with flight instruction. These day's, many flight instructors feel that it is valuable. It's gone far beyond the "game" senario. Forms of MSFS are used in commercial flight simulators. It's been bought by Lockheed Martin & used for commercial simulators. Cessna, for example, teamed up with a 3rd party vendor to create a simulation for it's Cessna Citation Mustang. The idea was to allow real pilots as well as simmers.........a chance to become familiar with the cockpit systems.

In a nutshell----------- there will be those who always proclaim that desktop simulation has no value..............you need to look elsewhere for a lot more opinion on these subjects.

L.Adamson

 

[redtail]

I was a Flightsim junkie for about 16 yrs before I could even think of affording real flight lessons and I'll tell you this. It taught me "about" flying but it didn't teach me HOW to fly. When I got into the real thing, I was in for a rude awakening..lol. Flightsim didn't prepare me for the feel of flight, turbulence, proper scan, radio techniques, etc. Fortunately for me, I went in as a humble student and accepted the fact that I didn't know nearly as much as needed to learn. I've only had a handful of CFI's and they were all very professional. Late only once or twice, but **** happens. I was determined to get my certificate even though it meant going into credit card debt! If all of the CFI's that you've been through are that unprofessional, you should have been long gone! Find another school that value you as a student. Sorry but I have to agree with some of the other posters here..... You seem to have an attitude of "know it all". Do you think you could play a driving game/sim and then go take driving lessons with the attitude of "I know how to drive already so this dude is just along as a safety net"?

Well whatever you decided to do, best of luck to you.

 

[fgcason]

The idea was to allow real pilots as well as simmers.........a chance to become familiar with the cockpit systems.

Pre solo and maneuvering flight is a heads up eyes out the window real world feedback environment, not heads down under the panel nit picking IFR training stuff.

Ex: Engine out on downwind, turn to the runway, reaching for flight controls, dump flaps in, deceleration forces and nose down pitching motion followed by cross control to the rudder stops to get it down simply does not work right on the video game. Most of that is the dynamic head movements, seat of the pants feel and tactile feedback pressures from the flight controls to get it right. I have yet to see or hear of a MSFS product that pushes you against the shoulder strap, the bottom falls out from under your butt and your body rotating forward and sideways as the plane plummets toward the runway while your body still knows which way the nose is pointed without looking.

And that doesn't even go into the completely unrealistic scenarios that the simulator will let you get away with. Touch down in a 172 at 100kts then at 90 kts shove the yoke full forward and to the right to the stops and see what happens. Or an off the runway during takeoff and roll to 90 deg at slow speed to turn with full bottom rudder and the stall warning going off. The simulator will let you get away with that. Just don't attempt that in real life because you will not get away with it...well, not for long.

there will be those who always proclaim that desktop simulation has no value.

It has it's uses in the right place for the right purpose. There's no question there. It's great for getting someone to understand the indications of an ADF or VOR or the principles of an ILS. It's not so great for heads up basic primary work.

And it's certainly not good for this scenario that the OP was going on about:

Training that sucks (Microsoft FSX has "taught" me how to fly and my CFI is more like a safety net when I attempt to put sim learning to us)

That is not about sucky training or a bad instructor. That is all about the student not learning and thinking he knows how to teach himself to fly and the instructor is only there to keep him from crashing. Bad student.

 

[bigblockz8]

I didn't mean that I can just fly because I've played a video game. I didn't just pick up a shotgun and skeet shoot because I could play a PS2 and do the same, I got training. Same with driving.

What I mean is that I have only had one CFI that explained in advance and walked me through the how and the why. I'm essentially up there learning based on "Oh crap that wasnt good" as opposed to "if you do this, this will happen but in order to correct for this, do this" type of teaching. My point is that all but one of the CFI's have been the type to just warm a seat.

I have learned more flying with people who aren't instructors than some of my bad ones combined. I got taxiing down thanks to a 17 year old PP that taxiied behind me and saw that I had trouble. In 10 minutes of playing on the ramp he taught me how to taxi without having people wonder if I have a .12 BAL

My point was about the instructors. I don't know it all and neither do the oldest and wisest ATP's. Give them the same exact conditions everyday and they still won't know everything, none of us can.

 

[bigblockz8]

So you're a computer whiz kid who thinks he's taught himself how to fly with MSFX and you had a bad day today, as evidenced by your other thread, so you've decided to can it. Have fun, see ya.

If you would completely read you would realize what I was implying about the instructional quality (rather the lack thereof) of MSFX vs. my CFI's. MSFX doesn't teach anything but some minor hand-eye coordination. My instructors either fly it themselves and have me "follow through" or have me fly the entire flight without talking me through what we are doing. No briefing, just a "hey is the plane ready?" I say "We have _______ fuel," blah blah and they reply with a simple "Cool, let's go."
Same occurs with flight sim.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I didn't mean that I can just fly because I've played a video game. I didn't just pick up a shotgun and skeet shoot because I could play a PS2 and do the same, I got training. Same with driving.

What I mean is that I have only had one CFI that explained in advance and walked me through the how and the why. I'm essentially up there learning based on "Oh crap that wasnt good" as opposed to "if you do this, this will happen but in order to correct for this, do this" type of teaching. My point is that all but one of the CFI's have been the type to just warm a seat.

I have learned more flying with people who aren't instructors than some of my bad ones combined. I got taxiing down thanks to a 17 year old PP that taxiied behind me and saw that I had trouble. In 10 minutes of playing on the ramp he taught me how to taxi without having people wonder if I have a .12 BAL

My point was about the instructors. I don't know it all and neither do the oldest and wisest ATP's. Give them the same exact conditions everyday and they still won't know everything, none of us can.

When I read your first post I believe I got the meaning you intended with your flight simulator comment. But I also suspected (and see confirmed) that it would be misread, since it was short enough to be ambiguous.

Too bad about the costs and the poor experience with instructors. I was fortunate to have one CFI all the way through my training who was always there and always on time. But he was semi-independent and had been doing training about ten years.

Given your experience and cost tolerance, I see nothing wrong with your decision - only thing I would suggest is to keep open the option of getting a pilot certificate for some point in the future when things align better.

 

[L.Adamson]

Pre solo and maneuvering flight is a heads up eyes out the window real world feedback environment, not heads down under the panel nit picking IFR training stuff.

As I said, it's gone much beyond the days of "heads down at the panel" if you so desire. It's my belief, as well as others...........that a "pilots" brain will fill in some gaps of "feel"..........that a non-pilots brain will not. We'll never get the effect of seat straps, and many of the other sensations though..... without mechanical intervention.

On the other hand, desktop simulation has become worthwhile for learning the use of rudder, as well as cross control. Some models replicate this quite realistically. Also applies to the use of throttle and pitch in the landing phase, climb, and cruise. Some models even replicate spins, and can teach the methods (by memorizing) of getting out of a spin situation.

Other models are becoming quite exact at simulating the airspeeds for flap and landing gear extention during the decent on an ILS. Some have even got the failed engine in twin/engine out senario to be quite realistic.

I'm not saying it's a substitute, and I far more enjoyed flying my Van's RV6 than desktop simulators. I'm just pointing out.............that they've come along way. There are quite a few real pilot/programmers who have spent years on refining the models to duplicate real life.

L.Adamson

 

[Palmpilot]

One of the things I appreciated about my instructor for the private pilot certificate was that we always sat down for preflight instruction prior to going out to the plane.

 

[bigblockz8]

When I read your first post I believe I got the meaning you intended with your flight simulator comment. But I also suspected (and see confirmed) that it would be misread, since it was short enough to be ambiguous.

Too bad about the costs and the poor experience with instructors. I was fortunate to have one CFI all the way through my training who was always there and always on time. But he was semi-independent and had been doing training about ten years.

Given your experience and cost tolerance, I see nothing wrong with your decision - only thing I would suggest is to keep open the option of getting a pilot certificate for some point in the future when things align better.

I didn't intend to come off as hostile in my reply, rereading there appears to be a bit of an offensive tone, sorry if that's perceived.

The problem is that when people take a break, life happens. I figure that if it is given up upon, when you get back into it you build a new emotional connection that's stronger, at least I hope so. I know of an older gentleman that put flying off at 17 until he was done with college. He's now 72 and I owe him a flight if or when I get my certificate.

Life also occurs

 

[Palmpilot]

As I've read the OP posts, I'm of the opinion that it is more of a students attitude, than a deficiency in the system.

Is the cited rumor that 79-85% of students never finish their training true, or close to true? If so, I'm not sure that "there must be something wrong with the student" is a wise assumption to start out with.

 

[saracelica]

FSX sucks as far as real flying. Everyone here knows I'm the perpetual student that had goofy CFI's. Sure they're good for some people. I had the chief safety officer try to teach me the fine points of flying. He and I didn't mesh...he was perpetually late too! It comes down to a relationship between the student and the teacher. If you (the student) doesn't respect the guy who already has his license you won't get anywhere quick. But know he has something to teach you you'll learn from him. There is lots of times my CFI will say let me show you how to land in this crazy crosswind (for my experience) but he can't describe what to do he has to show me. Normally when we're about 10 feet of the ground he says "Understand?" I say "sure" and he pushes the throttle all the way forward climbs and says "Show me you get it" (But he'll ALWAYS save his own neck and the club airplane before anything else)

Take some time off it's January in Maryland...interview people in the area and see who they like and get to meet them over coffee (or cocoa whichever) and then see what they are after (a big corporate job or teaching kids to fly) My CFI was offered a job in Iowa but he likes just being a small CFI teaching whomever.

Maybe save up your money this winter fly out to Nebraska and let Jesse teach you how to fly in a week. Several POA'ers went to Lincoln, NE and had really good experiences.

A flight simulator can't help you fly an airplane to Pittsburgh (legally) but a CFI can help you to learn to do it!

It's in your blood...you're young you vented. Now find someone to TEACH you! Be ready to learn!

 

[TMetzinger]

Greg (the OP),

Since we're sort of neighbors... why don't you take a week or so to cool off and get going on the rest of your life. Then drop me a PM or an email and let's talk about flying and such.

 

[bigblockz8]

If you (the student) doesn't respect the guy who already has his license you won't get anywhere quick.

Take some time off it's January in Maryland...interview people in the area and see who they like and get to meet them over coffee (or cocoa whichever) and then see what they are after (a big corporate job or teaching kids to fly) My CFI was offered a job in Iowa but he likes just being a small CFI teaching whomever.

Maybe save up your money this winter fly out to Nebraska and let Jesse teach you how to fly in a week. Several POA'ers went to Lincoln, NE and had really good experiences.

A flight simulator can't help you fly an airplane to Pittsburgh (legally) but a CFI can help you to learn to do it!

It's in your blood...you're young you vented. Now find someone to TEACH you! Be ready to learn!

I respect them if they live up to the title. Flight INSTRUCTOR, not just some guy assisting me in an airborne joyride. I have heard a lot about Jesse and I'll review him and some other (local) candidates. I get it now that the student is hiring the CFI and as such, the student has final say on who they want to learn from.

My experience has shown me that the CFI's that are in it as a career or just for fun are the best. I have only had one CFI-G and he could,and has,taken normal people and turned them into safe and competent aviators. His students are just encyclopedias of knowledge!

 

[weilke]

This thread is a joke, right ?

 

[L.Adamson]

My experience has shown me that the CFI's that are in it as a career or just for fun are the best.

You never know. Two of my flight instructors, who used instruction as a ladder to progress, are both airline pilots these days. But they are both still good friends.

 

[Anymouse]

I have heard from many sources that 79-85% of students never finish their training. I have also heard that this is generally post solo, only about 40% of this drop out is pre solo.

Some info/data to read http://www.aopa.org/ftinitiative/

I am (was) a pre-solo student. I am now officially done with flying unless I somehow let the bug nag at me. Today was my final lesson for the foreseeable future unless I get lucky and win one of the many scholarships,contests, or jobs that I applied for.

My reasons for leaving?

• Cost! (if the other issues weren't here I'd glady shut my mouth about cost)

• Training that sucks (Microsoft FSX has "taught*" me more about how to fly and my CFI is more like a safety net when I attempt to put sim learning to use...little to no instruction occurs in the air or on the ground No guidance.)

• CFI's that don't give a rat's ***!

• The amount of trial and error involved ( I mean this by looking for new CFIs or looking for a new flight school)

• The impersonal numeric feeling. I'm just another transaction in the accounting books.

I have always wanted to fly but in my flight training my love has disappeared. Something is seriously wrong with a.CFI's or b. the training experience that would cause a 14 year old boy with his eyes turned skyward into a 16 year old that hates going on training flights.

I now have more fun at home with a computer program than I do in the air. My computer is never late, never has excuses, and is never vague. I have a room that rivals that of some of the greatest aviation enthusiasts. Any and everywhere that you look, AVIATION! If you look at the floor, aviation! Look at my ceiling? C182 poster!

I'm in the process of taking the stuff down right now. Ever since I first flew I have been, you guessed it, aviation! I wake up wanting to fly. The more that I fly (in a training environment at least) the less I like it. I generally bum a ride once every several months in order to keep the flame lit. I find that I absolutely HATE learning to fly. I love pretending that the CFI is gone and that greatly improves my mood and performance.

To the CFI's reading this this may sound exaggerated but I'm not the only one. I am tired of the CFI's that are all about "yeah yeah get in and let me fly, I NEED TIME!" or the CFI's that're "Do what ever you want, I just need the time. If you're gonna crash I'll help you, just make sure that I'm not texting." I was talking with another private student and he said that he stopped flying because of the same reasons. He owns several gas stations and owns a taxi company as well. He said that money isn't an issue but it was the entire system that got him fed up.

I think that costs only cause about 30% of all dropouts. Family/health maybe 20%. Experience, in my opinion, accounts for the majority. I do believe that about 30% are reasons that are out of GA's control.

Here was my day (today, a SUNDAY!) as an example, this is typical:

I arrived at 7:42 am

Pushed to the pumps at 7:46

Another pilot fueled the plane as I preflighted

Fueling/pre-flight complete: 7:52am

Plane is retied, ready to go, plugged in, and fp filed, only need a code 7:57am

CFI Arrives: 8:24am
CFI ready: 8:32 am
8:50 we takeoff

9:48 we land after 6 to's/ldg's

10:06 done debriefing, the first debriefing that I have ever had in 16 flights!

This is the 4/4 time he was late by 10 or more minutes. I've had 2 cancelled lessons for personal reasons on his part and 2 thanks to wx ( I don't mind wx issues.) I've talked to the chief CFI and that didn't work out. In summary I am DONE.

I would like to say that I have lost a great love due in part to crap that shouldn't happen. I have had a grand total of 7 CFI's in my 13hrs,10 CFI's including intro flights. One was a great CFI ( the best pilot that I have ever known, he is like Sean Tucker or Capt. Sully but in a 172) , the others are all right seat bound and they don't care.

CFI's are the face of aviation. Airline pilots are not! To the general public those grey haired, well seasoned jet jocks may be but for aviation as a whole; you must learn to fly, instructors teach just that.

Bad instruction=Bad pilot= Bad reputation for GA and Aviation as a whole.

*I mean this by point and you go, which OBVIOUSLY isn't true. FSX is just a game. This point is for comparison to a widely known game about flying versus a human aviation "professional."
FSX is good for some tasks such as flying a DC-3 and then flying a Lear 45 though.

PS: To the idiot in the red and black 172N @ W00 at 9:20 am, what the hell was with that 45 degree dive from downwind to final for 18? You dove about 500 down and landed with an airplane still on roll out! The second time when I was taking off you didn't make any calls and dove yet again from TPA on downwind to final. You landed behind me and somehow cut me off on downwind. I'd like to know your name,address, and pilot #.

If you read this, you ****ed off and endangered the other four planes in the pattern along with the people on the ground. No calls or anything! You sure did go around and haul a** out of Freeway when you were asked to identify yourself, please identify yourself 28K!

I was set for CCBC (baltimore, not beaver) but thanks to my GED coming a DAY late, I can't register and therefore, no fed student aid, so no lab fee loan to cover flight training. If that would have worked out I'd be changing my school and possibly my major right now.

The stuff I bolded paints a picture of a young kid that doesn't have a clue. It appears that you're 16, so probably still living at home. But I have to wonder why a 16 year old has a GED? Did it have anything to do with the reasons you listed for quitting flying?

Then I have to ask why have you had so many instructors in such a short period of time? Is it you that doesn't want to fly with them? Or is it you that they don't want to fly with? Attitude works both ways. If you decide to continue, I suggest scheduling with just one instructor. You mentioned there was one fellow that you were really impressed with. Get on HIS schedule!

Also, keep in mind that instructors need to assess where you are before they can provide instruction. So, every time you go up with a new instructor, that instructor will need to do an assessment.

The instruction is a two way street as well. Before starting up again, ask your instructor how he intends to go about instructing you. Make a plan (the CFI should already have a syllabus) and try to stick with it. You'll have stumbling blocks that you'll need to get past. Get past them and move on. Being hard headed is one of the greatest detriments to learning, and based on some of the bolded stuff, you may have that problem.

For the record, my early flight training experience isn't that much different than yours. Grew up in Greenbelt, and later New Carrollton. First two lessons at Hyde Field, then moved on to College Park. Started at 16. Rode my bike to College Park for the lessons, which other than the first two were paid for by myself.

The biggest advice I can give you, if you really want to pursue aviation, is to get your head in the game. You have to make it happen. No one will hold your hand and guide you. This goes for just about everything in life.

Good luck in whichever direction you go.

 

[DavidWhite]

If you already hate it at 13 hours then I wouldn't waste anymore money. Flight training isn't easy. I have gotten frustrated at times, and REALLY frustrated at other times. Never once have I ever considered hanging up the wings. If you truly love flying then you won't either.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If you already hate it at 13 hours then I wouldn't waste anymore money. Flight training isn't easy. I have gotten frustrated at times, and REALLY frustrated at other times. Never once have I ever considered hanging up the wings. If you truly love flying then you won't either.

Agreed. I cried for hours (privately, at home) when at 40 hours I STILL hadn't solo'd - even after going to another flight school and hiring a CFI to do just landings. My eyes hurt for days, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't think, and I was so close to quitting. But I didn't. I dealt with the CFI that I had and his "ways" and saw him as the only path to what I wanted, my cert. Now that I have it I won't ever pay him again. I did pay him to do a checkout in one of their planes but that was only because I didn't know the other instructor and figured I'd save money by flying with my CFI.

 

[The Old Man]

As I said, it's gone much beyond the days of "heads down at the panel" if you so desire. It's my belief, as well as others...........that a "pilots" brain will fill in some gaps of "feel"..........that a non-pilots brain will not. We'll never get the effect of seat straps, and many of the other sensations though..... without mechanical intervention.

On the other hand, desktop simulation has become worthwhile for learning the use of rudder, as well as cross control. Some models replicate this quite realistically. Also applies to the use of throttle and pitch in the landing phase, climb, and cruise. Some models even replicate spins, and can teach the methods (by memorizing) of getting out of a spin situation.

Other models are becoming quite exact at simulating the airspeeds for flap and landing gear extention during the decent on an ILS. Some have even got the failed engine in twin/engine out senario to be quite realistic.

I'm not saying it's a substitute, and I far more enjoyed flying my Van's RV6 than desktop simulators. I'm just pointing out.............that they've come along way. There are quite a few real pilot/programmers who have spent years on refining the models to duplicate real life.

L.Adamson

I remain gfirmly in agreement with Frank. Much of what you say is true as far as it goes. But the bottom line is that without the visual, aural and tactile clues, you cannot learn to recognize the bad situation as it developes. You cannot "feel" in the simulator that you are cross-controlled and therefore recognize that you are (or are not) using enough rudder in the turn to prevent a stall if the gust dies.

To me using a simulator to "Learn to fly" is like using a simulator to "learn to drive" only much worse. More like using a simulator to "Learn to swim" then jumpimg out of a boat in the middle of the lake.

 

[AdamZ]

Agreed. I cried for hours (privately, at home) when at 40 hours I STILL hadn't solo'd - even after going to another flight school and hiring a CFI to do just landings. My eyes hurt for days, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't think, and I was so close to quitting. But I didn't. I dealt with the CFI that I had and his "ways" and saw him as the only path to what I wanted, my cert. Now that I have it I won't ever pay him again. I did pay him to do a checkout in one of their planes but that was only because I didn't know the other instructor and figured I'd save money by flying with my CFI.

Wait your cried for HOURS ?


OP, you have two awesome offers from this board one from Jeannie for flying camp and one from Tim, If you're serious about flying you'll take one of them up on it. If your not you won't and look that's OK too, no one will think that your a schmoe because you don't like flying if its just not for you. Best of Luck in what ever you decide.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Wait your cried for HOURS ?


OP, you have two awesome offers from this board one from Jeannie for flying camp and one from Tim, If you're serious about flying you'll take one of them up on it. If your not you won't and look that's OK too, no one will think that your a schmoe because you don't like flying if its just not for you. Best of Luck in what ever you decide.

Sure. I was at home (I live alone), felt like crap, had gone into debt and used all my spending money which could have been used on other things. Add to that I knew "anyone could fly" which p*ssed me off even more. I had seen so many people solo and I was just at wit's end. Men get "angry" in different ways than women. They don't cry so I don't expect you to understand why I cried for so long.