747 cargo down in Afghanistan

[Anymouse]

Here is a photo...

Yep! That's pretty much the view I had. Today was the first day flying right seat since the crash, so I haven't had a chance to look out that side of the plane.

 

[weilke]

Remarkable how little is left of a pretty big plane after a sufficiently violent impact and post-crash fire.

 

[docmirror]

Not exactly. If it was a failure of load restraints the deformation in the attachment points and hooks, as well as any longitudinal structural impact from shifting pallets will be easily discerned. That kind of damage would survive a post crash fire and would be pretty easy to separate form any deformation caused by impact both by physical as well as metallurgical analysis.

Uh huh. See post #120 and get back to me.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Uh huh. See post #120 and get back to me.

Well, from that picture, you really can't tell what sort of evidence did or did not survive. Those accident investigators are pretty good at piecing together bits and pieces and coming up with a cause.

 

[Skylane81E]

That pic sure tells the story of a near vertical impact

 

[docmirror]

Well, from that picture, you really can't tell what sort of evidence did or did not survive. Those accident investigators are pretty good at piecing together bits and pieces and coming up with a cause.

I think that was the general thrust of my first comment on this. It will be hard, nee very hard to confirm anything of the failure mode from what's left. Post crash fire changes metallurgy as well.

 

[LDJones]

Greg, have you heard about this incident?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...d-for-escaping-near-stall-on-take-off-343738/

Didn't find any further info on it but wonder if something similar could have happened...

Hmmm....

Instead of following the typical climb profile, the first officer - whose aerobatic experience meant he was familiar with buffet - controlled the aircraft through the stall warning and buffeting by executing a shallower climb, while the commander supported the manoeuvre by calling out heights above ground.

Aren't most private pilots "familiar with buffet" before a stall, as well as lowering the nose in response??

 

[Velocity173]

The accident didn't occur because of slats not deploying, PEDs, or weather. It was a weight shift. That is what is known. The only real question is whether the shift occurred due to improper mooring, weak mooring or the lesser chance of sabatoge.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Uh huh. See post #120 and get back to me.

Gee, your screen must have better resolution than mine. I can't see pieces small enough to say there are no remaining segments of deck tiedowns or any bits of structural material left. My guess is there are. I've had the unfortunate occasion to have sat on two Boards of Investigation while in the military, and had a chance to get a first hand view of how absolutely skilled and sophisticated the guys who comb over accidents are.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I think that was the general thrust of my first comment on this. It will be hard, nee very hard to confirm anything of the failure mode from what's left. Post crash fire changes metallurgy as well.

Specifically how? I know for a fact that the molecular structure of metal will retain shear, torsional, and stretching artifacts right up to the point of melting. I will bet not every portion of the cargo area melted.

 

[Doggtyred]

That pic sure tells the story of a near vertical impact

The video showed the belly flop pretty well too...

 

[slacktide]

Remarkable how little is left of a pretty big plane after a sufficiently violent impact and post-crash fire.

Yes. Point this pic toward the people who wonder why a 757 only made a 20' wide hole in the Pentagon.

 

[zaitcev]

Uh huh. See post #120 and get back to me.

I already mentioned Evergreen crash. Same thing, yet investigators were able to identify broken restraints. It also landed into a car salvage yard where quite a number of cars still had gas in tanks and their parts mixed up with the airplane.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I already mentioned Evergreen crash. Same thing, yet investigators were able to identify broken restraints. It also landed into a car salvage yard where quite a number of cars still had gas in tanks and their parts mixed up with the airplane.

The salvage yard crash you are thinking of was EMERY not Evergreen and it had nothing to do with cargo shifting. Most folks THOUGHT it was a cargo shift, but turned out it was a flight control failure.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000216-0

 

[zaitcev]

The salvage yard crash you are thinking of was EMERY not Evergreen and it had nothing to do with cargo shifting. Most folks THOUGHT it was a cargo shift, but turned out it was a flight control failure.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000216-0

Wow, thanks.

 

[JimNtexas]

The salvage yard crash you are thinking of was EMERY not Evergreen and it had nothing to do with cargo shifting. Most folks THOUGHT it was a cargo shift, but turned out it was a flight control failure.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000216-0

Flight control failure was my first thought, based on an experience I had in the military.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth my F-4 squadron lost an F-4 that tried to climb to the moon right after takeoff.

It turned out that during depot maintenance a year earlier a wrench had been left in the tailcone, and then glued in place by that yellow anti-corrosion paint they use.

F-4 pilots often used pull aft stick on takeoff, moving the stick forward as the aircraft broke ground. In this case the stick jammed in the full nose up position thanks to the wrench breaking loose.

Fortunately both guys got out, but one was seriously injured by an ejection seat malfunction.

I seem to recall a DC-8 freighter was lost a few years ago by a rock that got jammed into the flight controls somehow.

Whatever the cause, that's one of the most heart breaking videos I've ever seen.

 

[JoeyC]

Good friend of mine flew with both the Ca & FO, pretty sad

 

[denverpilot]

Good friend of mine flew with both the Ca & FO, pretty sad

Good friend of mine knew the FO who traded away the trip. Talk about dodging a bullet. And hopefully not too many feelings of survivor's guilt...

 

[dell30rb]

The accident didn't occur because of slats not deploying, PEDs, or weather. It was a weight shift. That is what is known. The only real question is whether the shift occurred due to improper mooring, weak mooring or the lesser chance of sabatoge.

well, either a weight shift or a control failure

 

[Velocity173]

well, either a weight shift or a control failure

True, but it was allegedly heard over a VHF radio that a crew member reported a load shift. If that report is false then yes, a control failure.

 

[RV10flyer]

True, but it was allegedly heard over a VHF radio that a crew member reported a load shift. If that report is false then yes, a control failure.

That would be equivalent to a 100 lb load shift in my plane and yes I can feel my kids moving in the back seats while flying. The 747 pilots would have felt 28,000 lbs shifting. The non-flying pilot probably made the call.

 

[Witmo]

That would be equivalent to a 100 lb load shift in my plane and yes I can feel my kids moving in the back seats while flying. The 747 pilots would have felt 28,000 lbs shifting. The non-flying pilot probably made the call.

How can you possibly make that statement without knowing where the CG in the accident aircraft was to begin with or the actual weight or change in position of the cargo? Such a comparison is beyond ridiculous.

 

[RV10flyer]

If my CG is within limits and I have 100 lbs move aft 1" or 10" I will know it. I am sure they knew something was wrong when and if a 28,000 lb vehicle moved aft in their 747.

 

[Witmo]

If my CG is within limits and I have 100 lbs move aft 1" or 10" I will know it. I am sure they knew something was wrong when and if a 28,000 lb vehicle moved aft in their 747.

Okay, much better analogy. Not equivalent situations but comparable.

 

[ChrisK]

If my CG is within limits and I have 100 lbs move aft 1" or 10" I will know it. I am sure they knew something was wrong when and if a 28,000 lb vehicle moved aft in their 747.

I once had a pilot in a 182 ask me to take the controls as he dove without warning into the back seat to grab some water. The aircraft of course reacted by trying to pitch up dramatically, which I countered with firm downward elevator pressure while sputtering laughing into the intercom. The pilot came back, sat down, and was entirely perplexed as to why I was laughing hysterically.

 

[N801BH]

May be total BS ... But I got an email from a reliable source that says ...

1- CVR and FDR failed at rotation.
2- Rearmost vehicle came loose on rotation and broke through the aft pressure bulkhead. It took out comm + power cables leading to the CVR/ FDR pack..
3- Debris was found on the runway indicating such a scenario.

Sad deal no matter what...

 

[Silvaire]

If it broke loose and apparently didn't even have a parking brake or transmission gear engaged and did indeed go completely through the pressure dome it would run smack dab into the horizontal stab jackscrew.

 

[Skylane81E]

If it broke loose and apparently didn't even have a parking brake or transmission gear engaged and did indeed go completely through the pressure dome it would run smack dab into the horizontal stab jackscrew.

Double your pleasure, aft CG AND a control failure? Talk about taking a trip to hell in a handbasket!

 

[Jim Logajan]

Double your pleasure, aft CG AND a control failure? Talk about taking a trip to hell in a handbasket!

Video shows what appears to be recoveries from wing drops presumably below stall speed; is that possible in a 747 using only ailerons? I would think loss of rudder control would have yielded a video showing it crashing with a wing down.

 

[Skylane81E]

Video shows what appears to be recoveries from wing drops presumably below stall speed; is that possible in a 747 using only ailerons? I would think loss of rudder control would have yielded a video showing it crashing with a wing down.

No one mentioned loss of rudder control

 

[Jim Logajan]

No one mentioned loss of rudder control

Sorry - misread post 147.

 

[Skylane81E]

Happens, no worries

 

[RV10flyer]

About the only option I could think of just after liftoff at 155 kts and a known load shift would be to pull the power. Would a stall from 200' be any better than 1200'?

 

[N801BH]

About the only option I could think of just after liftoff at 155 kts and a known load shift would be to pull the power. Would a stall from 200' be any better than 1200'?

yeah.. but........ I bet he was way higher then 1200'.

 

[kgruber]

This was just passed along to me:

"""""Passed on to me from a friend who still works in the system. grim news.

I was talking to a FAA inspector today about the B 747-400 crash in Afghanistan and have the following to report. Due to the possibilities of small arms fire, the crews do a max effort takeoff, The load was fairly light, not a lot of fuel for the flight to Dubai, but the last cargo placed in the back was a front-end loader. It was not properly secured (tied down) and it went backwards on the rotation. It crashed through the rear wall of the cargo compartment taking out all 4 hydraulic systems, making the plane uncontrollable. There were parts found on the runway indicating this scenario and once a 747 loses its' hydraulic systems, it is totally out of control from the pilots' inputs. There is a reason to always double check the security of the cargo on the plane."""""