5 Ts ?

Jeanie

Jeanie

Pattern Altitude
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Jeanie
Turn Time Twist Track Talk ? or is it...........


Time Turn Twist Track Talk??????
 
turn time twist throttle talk is what i've always used
 
Other versions exist (different orders, more or fewer T's), but the Peter Dogan/PIC version (which is the one I use and teach) is Turn-Time-Twist-Throttle-Talk. See Dogan's "Instrument Flight Training Manual" for the discussion, and until you get real good at this, don't try to move on to the other four until the Turn is complete.
 
I never liked it. Often you don't do many of the things listed so it feels wasteful. Never saw anyone who could remember to do them at the right time anyway.
 
Never been taught "throttle" - but of course, flying a 152 the throttle is pretty much not changed ......... I'll watch the video, thanks.
 
Just mumble some of them in whatever order and keep on going. Most CFI's can't remember them either.
 
Time: over the fix, Twist: desired course, Turn: desired course, Time: when on course (holding patterns), Transition: Flaps, throttle, gear, speed brake, whatever, Talk: tell 'em what your doing.
 
Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, and, Dodge!
 
Jeanie said:
Never been taught "throttle" - but of course, flying a 152 the throttle is pretty much not changed ......... I'll watch the video, thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't do it in the Comanche either. Throttle is pretty much wide open from take off until descent.
 
I suppose the Ts might help some folks - and it could be useful in the early stages of training but a primary goal of instr. flight is to stay ahead of the airplane. That means constantly saying to yourself, what do I need to do next, what is going to happen next.
Getting a routine for those things that can be assigned a routine (even write one down to help ingrain it), and constantly verbalizing (Wayne's 'muttering') the current status, and what the goal is, helps. It could be "1500', descending 500fpm to mins of 500" or "passing the faf, power back, slowing for gump"
 
EdFred said:
Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, and, Dodge!
Click to expand...
Also don't forget the 5B's of aviation.

*****, *****, *****, *****, *****.

This also goes with the 5M's

Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan

And the ever popular 5(B+M)s

***** and moan, ***** and moan, ***** and moan, ***** and moan, ***** and moan.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
ScottM said:
Also don't forget the 5B's of aviation.

*****, *****, *****, *****, *****.

This also goes with the 5M's

Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan

And the ever popular 5(B+M)s

***** and moan, ***** and moan, ***** and moan, ***** and moan, ***** and moan.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Click to expand...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
actually I think it's more like (bm)5 + P =
bitchmoan bitchmoan bitchmoan bitchmoan bitchmoan PAY
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I never liked it. Often you don't do many of the things listed so it feels wasteful.
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Get hold of Dogan's book and read the section on the subject. You might feel differently, especially if you were a new instrument pilot or one who doesn't fly IFR very much. One important point is that if they don't call out all five each time they hit an action point even if they don't have to do all five at that particular point, they will forget a necessary step at some other time.

Never saw anyone who could remember to do them at the right time anyway.
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That's why we teach them -- so they do remember to do all the things that need to be done, when they need to be done, in the right order of priority, each time they hit an action point. It also provides a training tool when talking through approaches before flying them -- at each point on the approach, going through the 5T's helps the trainee sort out all the things which must be done at that point. Then when they actually fly it, going through the 5T's helps them remember what it was they wanted to do.

And yes, despite all my decades and thousands of hours of experience, I call them out myself when I'm flying instrument procedures.
 
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Jeanie said:
Never been taught "throttle" - but of course, flying a 152 the throttle is pretty much not changed ......... I'll watch the video, thanks.
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"Throttle" generally means "go down, slow down, or both," and you'll have to do that at some points on an instrument flight even in a C-152.
 
Ron Levy said:
... You might feel differently, especially if you were a new instrument pilot or one who doesn't fly IFR very much...
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I fall into that second category. I always felt dumb actually saying those T's out loud, it felt like kindergarten, but I noticed that without it I was forgetting steps. I eventually realized that it's far more embarrassing to do something wrong than it is to have a childish mechanism that ensures you do it right.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
I fall into that second category. I always felt dumb actually saying those T's out loud, it felt like kindergarten, but I noticed that without it I was forgetting steps. I eventually realized that it's far more embarrassing to do something wrong than it is to have a childish mechanism that ensures you do it right.
-harry
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Hi Harry,
I wouldn't think of it as a childish mechanism anymore than a handheld checklist would be. It's just a checklist that's used enroute seems to me.

J
 
Throttle has always seemed out of place to me in that checklist... if I'm entering a hold, I should be already slowed down by the time I'm passing over the fix the first time, right?

I asked my CFII that a few months back, he didn't have an answer. Hopefully someone here will.
 
azure said:
Throttle has always seemed out of place to me in that checklist... if I'm entering a hold, I should be already slowed down by the time I'm passing over the fix the first time, right?

I asked my CFII that a few months back, he didn't have an answer. Hopefully someone here will.
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When you pass a fix you often make an altitude change. You generally don't make that change before the fix. Quite often you'll make that altitude change by making a throttle change.

It's not just about the a fix on a hold - it's about any fix.
 
mantakos said:
I fall into that second category. I always felt dumb actually saying those T's out loud, it felt like kindergarten, but I noticed that without it I was forgetting steps. I eventually realized that it's far more embarrassing to do something wrong than it is to have a childish mechanism that ensures you do it right.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: You have no idea how many of my 10-day course students initially do not memorize and use the T's, then later tell me, "Y'know, this T's thing really works! I should have memorized them three days ago!" To which I think (but don't say), "No @#$%^&, Sherlock." I get a the same about the Six Configurations, too. Take those things to heart, and you'll be amazed how much less rushed and confused you feel during instrument procedures.
 
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azure said:
Throttle has always seemed out of place to me in that checklist... if I'm entering a hold, I should be already slowed down by the time I'm passing over the fix the first time, right?
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Right -- three minutes prior. But you still may be making an altitude change upon holding pattern entry, hence the "throttle" in the 5T's could still be necessary. That said, it's important that you verbalize all five every time (even if it's "Throttle - already done") so you don't waste time thinking about which ones you need this time or omitting ones you don't need this time so you forget them when you do need them.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Oh, yeah, and the GUMP thing, I forget what that one is too. I think it's something like gas, undercarriage, mixture and prop.
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Gear down
Under carriage down
Make sure you put the gear and/or undercarriage down
Put the flippen gear handle in the gear down position!!
 
Oh, yeah, and the GUMP thing, I forget what that one is too.
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Now, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I am in favor of a modest few mnemonic aids, GUMP being one of them.

But do you really need a checklist item to tell you to reduce the throttle to descend?!

Do a search for aviation mnemonics or memory aids....there are so many out there, you can actually get into trouble by trying to remember the mnemonic itself! (you will forget one part of it thus jeopardizing the very purpose of the aid).

If TTTTT helps you, have at it. Like I said, it doesn't do much for me.
Has anyone else flown with experienced or pro pilots? I have with a handful, and have never seen them do this.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Has anyone else flown with experienced or pro pilots? I have with a handful, and have never seen them do this.
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Guess you haven't flown with me.

Unless you don't think almost 9000 hours over 40 years, and 20 years making my living in the cockpit, make me "experienced" or a "pro pilot."
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
... But do you really need a checklist item to tell you to reduce the throttle to descend?!...
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I don't. Nor do I need a mnemonic to remind me to turn. Never forgotten either of these.

But for the other three T's, I have a spottier record.

I guess I could change it to "3 T's plus the stuff you always remember to do any way", but those extra two T's aren't really cramping my style much.
-harry
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Well I would like to do that sometime, I am sure I would learn some things.
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Perhaps the Grumman convention will return to West Texas in 2012 or 2014 (next Central region years) and I can stop by on the way. Or you can call PIC for a refresher training course and request me. ;)
 
I use the first three. Turn, time, twist. You almost always have to do those things in different segments of approaches. The throttle is obvious (one would hope). The talk is important, but usually ATC has told you when to do that, and you've written down when you will be doing that (right?). Talk one more time on final approach if you are at a non-towered.

How many people use PAIN CALL?
 
And I would just add, NEVER feel "kindergarten-ish" or silly using whatever you need to use to make you safe. Anyone who reads these boards knows very well that I have no qualms opening myself up to criticism. I just want to be safe and have fun, wherever possible. If the 3 Ts, 5 Ts or whatever works for you, then do it!
 
spiderweb said:
The throttle is obvious (one would hope).
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Not by my experience. Those who don't do all five often forget to start their descent during a procedure.

The talk is important, but usually ATC has told you when to do that
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Usually isn't always. And even when they've been told to "report PT inbound," that's often forgotten in the heat of battle if they don't think about whether there's a report to make.

, and you've written down when you will be doing that (right?).
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I don't like folks looking down at their notes when in the middle of their turnpoint procedures -- that's when the airplane falls off on one wing.

How many people use PAIN CALL?
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Never even heard of it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not by my experience. Those who don't do all five often forget to start their descent during a procedure.

Usually isn't always. And even when they've been told to "report PT inbound," that's often forgotten in the heat of battle if they don't think about whether there's a report to make.

I don't like folks looking down at their notes when in the middle of their turnpoint procedures -- that's when the airplane falls off on one wing.

Never even heard of it.
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Good points, all. And really, I do understand and appreciate the need for the 5 as opposed to the 3. I guess the need for the "talk" part depends on where one trained for the IR. Very good point about looking down during a turn. And along those lines, I have been wondering if there might be a similar negative outcome with the heads-down time (or heads-slightly down time?) on G1000 and Avidyne-equipped aircraft, on approach.

PAIN CALL was something someone told me about on this very board. It is an acronym (of course) designed to guide one through the approach. I used it at first, but don't need it now. :)
 
I'm with Ron. I cannot tell you how many times students fight using using these mental checklist. By the time we are polishing for the check ride, they have ALL been fans of them. My big ones are:

- 5Ts
- 5As (setting up for the approach...atis, altimeter, avionics, altitudes, away)
- "Leaving X for Y altitude". This one could well save your life someday.
- 5 Cs (on the miss). Cram it, climb it, course, clean it communicate it

...and of course, GUMPS

Regarding flying with professional pilots. I have done alot of it and to a person they are big users of checklists. Mostly written ones. As GA pilots, a good mental list works fine
 
spiderweb said:
I guess the need for the "talk" part depends on where one trained for the IR.
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Not really -- your rating allows you to fly IFR anywhere.

Very good point about looking down during a turn. And along those lines, I have been wondering if there might be a similar negative outcome with the heads-down time (or heads-slightly down time?) on G1000 and Avidyne-equipped aircraft, on approach.
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My experience training folks in glass panel planes is yes -- any heads-down time is bad, so you do what you can to minimize the need to look at your notes in the middle of a procedure. I've found that just saying "Talk" is likely to prod your brain into remembering that the controller said, "report PT inbound," and I've found that's better than looking down at your notes to see what possible things you might need to do at this point.
 
Not if they're riding with me.

ruthsindelar said:
Regarding flying with professional pilots. I have done alot of it and to a person they are big users of checklists. Mostly written ones. As GA pilots, a good mental list works fine
Click to expand...
 
ruthsindelar said:
I cannot tell you how many times students fight using using these mental checklist.
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The problem that I remember with these various mental checklists is that each flight instructor I had seemed to have a different pet acronym. I had not thought about the 5 Ts in a long time but it seems that one of my instructors way back when included "tires" somewhere in there. I've had all kinds of acronyms taught to me over the years and the only one I really remember and use is FATS (flaps, airbrakes, trims and speeds) for the killer items before takeoff.
 
I think the 5t's are good in the learning environment but in the everyday environment for me I just set the inbound, do the entry and slow or go down...granted HSI makes it a snap. I also dont care about 1 min holds..unless I just have no other option .I just go 4 dme or 4 nm (gps) then turn..
 
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taters said:
I also dont care about 1 min holds..unless I just have no other option .I just go 4 dme or 4 nm (gps) then turn..
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That's a good way to fool the controller about what you're doing when the hold is published at 1 min.
 
Bottom line is that it is a memory aid to ensure that all required actions have been taken, and the sequence itself is irrelevant. Performing an action "out of order" is not going to cause the airplane to fall out of the sky, result in a certificate action, or cause a gross navigation error.

Bob Gardner

Bob Gardner
 
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