5 related adults dead in Cessna 340 crash

Why do I and my airplane need to be regulated any more than we already are? This is the "slippery slope" we so often hear about. We forget that stuff was unregulated, then a battle ensued about new regulation, new reg became established, years go by and it becomes norm to feel regulated, then someone comes along to regulate further and the cycle continues.

I don't need any new regs. Nor does my airplane. Neither does my family.
 
Posted on the AOPA Forum:

Initial on this is out: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20171224X03602&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

It does not add much information, but apparently the pilot thought visibility was too low to taxi, but not too low to take off.

According to two BOW fixed base operator (FBO) employees, about 0630 the pilot requested that the airplane be towed from the pilot's hangar to the ramp. The pilot wanted a tow because he didn't want to taxi next to the other hangars with the reduced visibility due to the dense fog. The five occupants boarded the plane inside the hangar and remained inside the airplane during the tow. The pilot then very slowly taxied the airplane from the ramp to the end of runway 9L where the engine run-up was completed. The employees then heard the airplane takeoff and proceed to the east. They could not see the airplane because of the dense fog and low visibility, but they heard an explosion on the east side of the airport. They drove to the explosion and found the main wreckage on fire and no occupants were immediately noticeable.

Tony Saxton (twin cessna guru) made the observation that the trim tab is deflected 2.5x the max travel -- so it is either crash damaged or jammed, not merely set wrong.
 
Posted on the AOPA Forum:

Initial on this is out: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20171224X03602&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

It does not add much information, but apparently the pilot thought visibility was too low to taxi, but not too low to take off.


Sounds about right. I live about 13 miles from that airport, and we were having morning fog that dense for several days prior, across the entire central and western part of the state. I cancelled two of my own flights that week because of it.

The fog would start to build shortly after sunset, and by sunrise the next morning it was about like a bowl of chowder and extended up a couple of hundred feet or so. Calm wind and cool temps kept the fog persistent until 10 or 11 in the morning, which is a bit unusual because our fogs normally burn off within an hour or so of sunrise. Reports had visibility at less than 1/4 mile; from what I saw it was much much less, maybe a few hundred feet.

BUT, please remember that such a simple measure of "visibility" doesn't really address what you might need to see. Maybe in the fog you can see a car's tail lights at 1/4 mile, but that doesn't mean you can see a white centerline or a gray coyote on the runway at anything more than 50 feet.

I've read the posts above about skilled IFR pilots being able to take off in 0/0 conditions, and while that may be true it doesn't address the entire picture. Please forgive me if I'm stating the obvious for some of you, but some postings make me think that the following may be helpful.

Risk management considers both the probability of occurrence and the consequence of occurrence. Risks can be mitigated by addressing either or (preferably) both. When an unmitigated consequence is classified as catastrophic (i.e., loss of life),however, it is not sufficient to address only the probability side; we must mitigate the consequence as well.

Pilot skill and training, together with proper maintenance, pre-flight inspection, etc., can substantially the reduce probability of occurrence of a crash, but not the consequence of a crash. So, let's talk consequence for a moment...

If a problem does occur in flight that prevents remaining airborne, the unmitigated consequence would be destruction of the aircraft and loss of life. Mitigation of the consequence can reduce the outcome to, let's say, (1) destruction of the aircraft with serious injury to occupants, (2) damage to the aircraft, minor injuries to the people, (3) minor damage, no injuries, and (4) normal landing, no damage or injuries.

Mitigating actions that would drive these consequences down depend on when the problem occurs (take-off, cruise, etc.) and available landing sites, and range from a landing on the runway or at an alternate airport to a crash-landing in bad terrain or a ditching.

In this case, the fog precluded virtually all means of mitigating the consequence of an in-flight failure. The runway, the rest of the airport, nearby fields, lakes, alternate airports, etc. could not be seen. Regardless of how well the probability of occurrence was mitigated by the pilot, when a problem did occur he had no way to reduce the consequence below the catastrophic.

Also, keep in mind that even extremely good skill does not mitigate all probability of a problem; the pilot would not have been able to see and avoid a large bird, a coyote on the runway, etc. (Heck, if there had been another aircraft on approach, he wouldn't have been able to see it and the tower was closed.) Or there could have been a mechanical failure.

In my never-humble but often wrong and frequently ignored opinion, this pilot likely failed to consider the consequence aspect of risk management and made a poor decision, especially given that fact that the only negative consequence of waiting a couple of hours would have been arriving late for lunch.

God rest their souls.
 
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BTW - for you IFR pilots who are skilled enough to be comfortable with a 0/0 take-off, would you do so without a weather briefing and from an uncontrolled airport?

From the preliminary report:
The pilot did not request a weather briefing from Flight Service. The BOW air traffic control tower was closed at the time of the accident.
 
BTW - for you IFR pilots who are skilled enough to be comfortable with a 0/0 take-off, would you do so without a weather briefing and from an uncontrolled airport?

From the preliminary report:
From what I've gathered, most people here don't get weather briefings from Flight Service. They use other sources.

I'm not sure why uncontrolled vs. controlled,would be an issue.
 
I'm not sure why uncontrolled vs. controlled,would be an issue.

Just asking the question, but it seems to me you might want to have a tower radar that can see what you can't see visually - nearby planes, a flock of birds, ...
 
Just asking the question, but it seems to me you might want to have a tower radar that can see what you can't see visually - nearby planes, a flock of birds, ...
Nearby planes shouldn't exist.

Of all the near misses I've had with birds in a tower environment, I've never had tower tell me about them.

YMMV.
 
Just asking the question, but it seems to me you might want to have a tower radar that can see what you can't see visually - nearby planes, a flock of birds, ...
Tower does not equal radar. I dunno the statistics but some towers don’t have a radar feed. At any rate the tower for a Delta is only responsible for separation on the ground. The IFR clearance provides separation from other IFR traffic.
 
From what I've gathered, most people here don't get weather briefings from Flight Service.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Foreflight and "other means" have replaced most people calling FSS. Although my CFI did tell me that at least if I call FSS there is a hard record that I "made myself known to all pertinent flight information", and, should I have an accident, may help mitigate some potential legal fallout as that would stand as proof that I received a full briefing

Of all the near misses I've had with birds in a tower environment, I've never had tower tell me about them.
Once, just once, I had tower call me to notify me of bird activity reported at the end of the runway. Now, I was maybe 50 feet in the air, so not many options, and I didn't see a single bird. To be completely honest, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that kind of information. I can't imagine if Sully had received a "flock of geese" alert he would have much time or options to avoid them either. "Birds" always seemed to me like a pointless notification... yeah, it's the sky, that's where birds live
 
Once, just once, I had tower call me to notify me of bird activity reported at the end of the runway. Now, I was maybe 50 feet in the air, so not many options, and I didn't see a single bird. To be completely honest, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that kind of information. I can't imagine if Sully had received a "flock of geese" alert he would have much time or options to avoid them either. "Birds" always seemed to me like a pointless notification... yeah, it's the sky, that's where birds live
There have been days when other pilots, the tower, and I have tracked birds in the pattern. Mild entertainment while doing pattern work...
 
...Once, just once, I had tower call me to notify me of bird activity reported at the end of the runway. Now, I was maybe 50 feet in the air, so not many options, and I didn't see a single bird. To be completely honest, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that kind of information. I can't imagine if Sully had received a "flock of geese" alert he would have much time or options to avoid them either. "Birds" always seemed to me like a pointless notification... yeah, it's the sky, that's where birds live

To be honest and as a controller I don't see the point either but we have to do so for 15 minutes. Birds are always moving. At the very least it is to warn pilots that birds are in the area.
 
I am struck by the number of people trying to skate this crash.

It’s real simple.

If the passengers (family members on a pleasure flight) had been told the risks of taking off in zero visibility, and that they had a choice between taking off and having breakfast and coffee until the fog burned off, it seems pretty obvious that they would have chosen the latter. And they would have been right. Instead, they are dead.
Told of the risks...ok, how do you quantify the risks? What metric can be used? Not everyone is trained in ORM. As much as the ORM form used in every CAP flight is additional paperwork on top of other paperwork on top of interminable checklists, there's a very good reason for using it. And the fact that anyone at anytime at any point of the flight can stop/cancel the flight mitigates another risk factor. Unless the pax are familiar with GA, most are unwilling to voice concern or even tell the pilot they want to end the flight or refuse to fly, unless they are scared to fly to begin with.

Anyone the FAA deems qualified to pilot a GA aircraft has an automatic aura of authority and by definition must know everything and be a spectacular pilot right?
 
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Foreflight and "other means" have replaced most people calling FSS. Although my CFI did tell me that at least if I call FSS there is a hard record that I "made myself known to all pertinent flight information", and, should I have an accident, may help mitigate some potential legal fallout as that would stand as proof that I received a full briefing


FF and FSS are both looking at the same data, same thing you see on https://www.1800wxbrief.com/Website/#!/ . Briefing with FF also provides a hard record, as does getting a brief from the 800wxbrief website. I may be wrong, but I would think the preliminary report would mention it if there were a record of him doing a FF or 800wxbrief weather briefing as that seems pertinent.
 
At 7:15 in the morning and first takeoff in the day at a uncontrolled field I would worry more about what is lurking on the runway ahead than any birds in the air. This could be a flock of geese that has bedded down, a gator or the 172 that crashed last night and went unnoticed. Large airports with Cat III operations have someone in a car go out and check the runway for fod first thing in the morning.
 
At 7:15 in the morning and first takeoff in the day at a uncontrolled field I would worry more about what is lurking on the runway ahead ...

Agreed. We have a serious coyote problem in this state, and I've watched them wander across the runway at other airports. Not to mention occasional deer and gators.

Runway photo from nearby KORL (Orlando Exec):
upload_2018-1-5_11-16-53.png
 
Told of the risks...ok, how do you quantify the risks?
Exactly. As pilots we can brief each other of the risks... "gee Murphey, it's pretty foggy out this morning, what do you think, worth it?" but how do you effectively communicate the risks (of anything really) to someone who isn't a subject matter in that field? And frankly, if the pilot feels he has to consult about the safety of his flight with the pax, the non experts, then he shouldn't be flying anyway since he knows deep down that it's not safe and he's looking for validation (either to ease the guilt of cancelling, or to get over his "willies" of the flight)

FF and FSS are both looking at the same data, same thing you see on https://www.1800wxbrief.com/Website/#!/ . Briefing with FF also provides a hard record, as does getting a brief from the 800wxbrief website. I may be wrong, but I would think the preliminary report would mention it if there were a record of him doing a FF or 800wxbrief weather briefing as that seems pertinent.
That's cool, I did not know that! I assumed only the phone call was an actual record and that FF was "passive ping" of sorts. Cool!
 
That's cool, I did not know that! I assumed only the phone call was an actual record and that FF was "passive ping" of sorts. Cool!

See the FF website: https://support.foreflight.com/hc/e...-weather-briefing-for-FAR-Part-91-operations- .

What pilots typically are concerned about when they discuss a "legal weather briefing" is whether or not they will have some proof or record of their briefing. This is important so that in the event of an incident, they can prove they met the requirements under 91.103. We do keep a record of the briefing you get for 120 days, provided you tap the "Brief" button.


I use 800wxbrief to send me an automated email so that I also have my own record.
 
Anyone the FAA deems qualified to pilot a GA aircraft has an automatic aura of authority and by definition must know everything and be a spectacular pilot right?

No, it means they once met the MINIMUM standard to be Pilot In Command on a checkride.

Many do not meet those minimums two years later at a Flight Review, or for the rest of their lives.

Others do and go well above and beyond and operate above the minimums continuously.

Such is the nature of non-professional Aviation.
 
At 7:15 in the morning and first takeoff in the day at a uncontrolled field I would worry more about what is lurking on the runway ahead than any birds in the air. This could be a flock of geese that has bedded down, a gator or the 172 that crashed last night and went unnoticed. Large airports with Cat III operations have someone in a car go out and check the runway for fod first thing in the morning.
A quick taxi down the runway confirms that stuff as well.
 
No, it means they once met the MINIMUM standard to be Pilot In Command on a checkride.

Many do not meet those minimums two years later at a Flight Review, or for the rest of their lives.

Others do and go well above and beyond and operate above the minimums continuously.

Such is the nature of non-professional Aviation.
Quite frankly, this closely mirrors the nature of professional aviation as well.
 
BTW - for you IFR pilots who are skilled enough to be comfortable with a 0/0 take-off, would you do so without a weather briefing and from an uncontrolled airport?

I have done departures from a non towered airport, but with checking weather with FSS, which was on the airport.(Alaska). The FSS keeps close tabs on everyone in the class E area.
 
No, it means they once met the MINIMUM standard to be Pilot In Command on a checkride.

Many do not meet those minimums two years later at a Flight Review, or for the rest of their lives.

Others do and go well above and beyond and operate above the minimums continuously.

Such is the nature of non-professional Aviation.
Silly me for not adding the sarcasm emoji.
 
Actually, we here in Polk County think pretty highly of our sheriff. http://www.polksheriff.org/Sheriff/Pages/SheriffBio.aspx

He is quite intelligent and very well trained and experienced. I would bet he had some of the department aviators at the site, and I suspect he spoke with them and with tower personnel.

This ain’t his first rodeo.
——————-
Edited to add that I just saw Mark’s post. No surprise the sheriff consulted with a pilot. The man is not an idiot.

Regardless, determining fault in an aircraft accident is above the PCSD's pay grade. That's for the FAA and NTSB to determine. The peanut gallery opinion is just conjecture.
 
Regardless, determining fault in an aircraft accident is above the PCSD's pay grade. That's for the FAA and NTSB to determine. The peanut gallery opinion is just conjecture.

Uh huh. So far in this thread we're at 12 pages of conjecture. :)
 
Sure. The guy was afraid to taxi from his hangar to the FBO.
Big difference in light refraction/reflection issues close to hangars vs out on the runway. He clearly wasn't afraid to taxi once he was clear of the hangars.
 
Good news is, most of these opinions won't be affected by the NTSB final report.
Even better news is that the NTSB report won't be affected by ANY of these opinions! That's why I don't understand why some people object to speculation on message boards.
 
BTW - for you IFR pilots who are skilled enough to be comfortable with a 0/0 take-off, would you do so without a weather briefing and from an uncontrolled airport?

From the preliminary report:
....nope. No briefing in these conditions is plain stupid. Even with a skew-t diagram I still need a briefing.

Uncontrolled field not that much of an issue. One must pick up their clearance before launching
 
BTW - for you IFR pilots who are skilled enough to be comfortable with a 0/0 take-off, would you do so without a weather briefing and from an uncontrolled airport?

I've departed my uncontrolled home field after getting clearance on my cell phone from the nearby Class D tower, and from the Clearance Delivery tollfree number. That's how the system is designed to work. Or do you think it's somehow dangerous to take off without an operating tower?

Based on the one 0-0 takeoff I made under foggles with my CFII in training, from the 6500 x 150 Class D runway, it's something I choose to not do on my own.
 
....nope. No briefing in these conditions is plain stupid. Even with a skew-t diagram I still need a briefing.

Do you mean an AFSS briefer briefing, or no looking at weather at all? The press wording of the report is only the former. Not necessarily the latter.

I haven’t found an FSS briefer who was doing anything more than reading already available information to me for years. I doubt some pilots even know they used to actually help interpret weather data.
 
Do you mean an AFSS briefer briefing, or no looking at weather at all? The press wording of the report is only the former. Not necessarily the latter.

I haven’t found an FSS briefer who was doing anything more than reading already available information to me for years. I doubt some pilots even know they used to actually help interpret weather data.

No sir. There is no need to speak to a human as you can certainly get all of that data yourself where it is logged you pulled. read and interpret it yourself. In this case, as I understand it, he neither spoke to someone or pulled it electronically. But this may not be correct; we need the final report to tell us.
 
At 7:15 in the morning and first takeoff in the day at a uncontrolled field I would worry more about what is lurking on the runway ahead than any birds in the air. This could be a flock of geese that has bedded down, a gator or the 172 that crashed last night and went unnoticed. Large airports with Cat III operations have someone in a car go out and check the runway for fod first thing in the morning.

I had issues like this twice in 1.5 years at KSNL as airport ops - one was a 414 pilot who had a flat tire and left the aircraft locked just off of the runway on a taxiway connector after he landed the night before. I saw it driving in for work the next morning and didn't get it unstuck for hours.

The other was a 182 that blew his tire on landing (I watched it happen) and had wheel pants which made it difficult to remove from the runway. This happened at dusk and two flight school aircraft (basically 100% of the fleet) left for night flight training before it happened. Only one runway. I kept making announcements on the UNICOM but all I could think about was some NORDO guy not paying attention and landing right into it before I could figure out how to clear it.

Plus a fair share of coyotes, the occasional deer, and one massive flock of vultures.
 
Every time I think of a 0:0 takeoff I remember seeing what I recall to be a Cessna 195, taxi out of the fog then back into the fog before apparently taking off at KAGC in the 60s. Only saw the plane for a few seconds but he was sporting those old xwind landing gear. It was liking trying to follow the gaze of a cockeyed teacher... which way is that thing pointing?

Imagine keeping that thing aligned during takeoff.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ces...AUIEigC&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=bd4tUu3bSsDmlM:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I haven’t found an FSS briefer who was doing anything more than reading already available information to me for years. I doubt some pilots even know they used to actually help interpret weather data.

Actually, of the 6 FSS briefers I _SPOKE_ to this year (I usually use duats and / or foreflight) 1 of them really helped me with an interpretation, 1 was really helpful in examining a TFR, 2 were helpful in discussing flight conditions (1 regarding TFRs, 1 regarding weather), 1 didn't want to talk to me and basically shoved me off the phone and 1 read what was in the foreflight briefing.

If they discontinue FSS, I'll miss having a neutral party with whom to discuss flight conditions when necessary.
 
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