4500 SMOH

MarcoDA40

MarcoDA40

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Marco
I came across a C152 at a very juicy price. Good interior, minor hail damage and it is for sale by owner. I can do a down payment and then pay monthly for it (less than my car payment).
The plane is still flying, it is air worthy and compressions are still good, paint is good, avionics are okay.. but like the title states... 4500hrs on the engine..
If I were to be able to squeeze even 300hrs out of that engine, by the time I fly it 300 hours I could potentially overhaul it. (With an engine reserve per hour x 300)

The seller is also the AP that works on the planes I currently rent/fly, been with them for almost 5 years and never had an issue, thats why I'm even considering this.

Run for the hills?

/unleash
 
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Wow, 4500, hail damage, ex rental, he’ll finance and she’s also the mechanic that’s been inking the logs

Shy of it being like $6,000 or something, those planes are a dime a dozen, why submit yourself to this?
 
Yeah. Unless it is dirt dirt cheap and you can verify everything, I would move on
 
Or it could be a good deal. A good independent pre-buy and make a decision.

Or pass on it. Lots of fish in the pond.
 
Depends. If the engine crapped out at hour 2, would you be able to write the check? There are no guarantees on longevity no matter what the SMOH is.

Don't delude yourself financially.
 
One thing I learned doing an overhaul on an engine way past TBO.... the overhaul will cost more. Get some quotes and then add a bunch, because the quotes won’t consider how bad everything is going to be after that long.
How many overhauls has it had?
What was the crank turned down to last overhaul? You could be looking at a new crank after that long.
You could be looking at cracks in the case after that long.....
Have the accessories been overhauled along the way, or are they also going to need love? When we’re the mags last overhauled, etc

Or, the mechanic might be keeping it up well with constant upkeep. A look in front of the firewall and the logs will tell a lot.
 
How juicy of a price are we talking here? Is the deal still good when you add engine rebuild cost to it?
 
I just bought a plane over TBO. I think it can make sense to do so if:
1) The price is right
2) You're going to flip the plane shortly, after building some time [primary training/multi engine might be examples]
3) You plan on keeping the plane long-term.
 
If you keep that mechanic working on it, I don’t see any pressing reason to not expect another hundred. But when overhaul does happen, it will be very costly. A factory exchange might be best as I would guess the crankshaft to be unusable. But I’m pulling guesses out of thin air just based on my opinion.

As others have said.... what *if it only makes another two hours? Are you okay paying for a new engine now? There are never any guarantees. Not even a 500-hour engine is exempt from this thinking.

Do you have access to another $20-Ish without selling a kidney or will this make your new-to-you 152 a permanent tarmac queen?
 
Everyone says that TBO is just a number—which it is, but if I were shopping for an airplane, I wouldn’t purchase one that’s excessively over, unless I had the financial means ready to OH right away. In the end, it’s all a crapshoot anyway.

Do you mind revealing the ‘juicy price’ ?
 
Ryanb said:
Everyone says that TBO is just a number—which it is, but if I were shopping for an airplane, I wouldn’t purchase one that’s excessively over, unless I had the financial means ready to OH right away. In the end, it’s all a crapshoot anyway.

Do you mind revealing the ‘juicy price’ ?
Click to expand...

If you buy a plane and can’t afford an engine overhaul, you can’t afford the plane.
 
Clip4 said:
If you buy a plane and can’t afford an engine overhaul, you can’t afford the plane.
Click to expand...

Thinking same. I would add that if you have to finance a 152 (particularly at a “juicy” price) you can’t afford an airplane.
 
Clip4 said:
If you buy a plane and can’t afford an engine overhaul, you can’t afford the plane.
Click to expand...
Most people don’t have an engine reserve fund before they buy an airplane, so I wouldn’t exactly argue that.
 
Rgbeard said:
If you keep that mechanic working on it, I don’t see any pressing reason to not expect another hundred. But when overhaul does happen, it will be very costly. A factory exchange might be best as I would guess the crankshaft to be unusable. But I’m pulling guesses out of thin air just based on my opinion.
Click to expand...

An exchange will also be more expensive. The Lycoming's core values drop a bunch once an engine is past 400 hours beyond TBO. They expect to have to replace more stuff, of course. I would expect that at 4500 hours even the crankcase will require line boring and a bunch of other work.
 
Dan Thomas said:
An exchange will also be more expensive. The Lycoming's core values drop a bunch once an engine is past 400 hours beyond TBO. They expect to have to replace more stuff, of course. I would expect that at 4500 hours even the crankcase will require line boring and a bunch of other work.
Click to expand...

You should look at Lycoming’s exchange program. They do not devalue the cores.
 
Oh, Hell no! Unless the price, plus the cost of an engine replacement, totals less than the value of one with a low-time engine.
 
Clip4 said:
You should look at Lycoming’s exchange program. They do not devalue the cores.
Click to expand...

I was Director of Maintenance for a flight school and bought numerous Lycoming factory overhauled engines. The stuff that came with every engine warned of core credit reductions for engines over 400 hours beyond TBO.
 
I would guess " material condition right now" means nothing to most here
 
Dan Thomas said:
I was Director of Maintenance for a flight school and bought numerous Lycoming factory overhauled engines. The stuff that came with every engine warned of core credit reductions for engines over 400 hours beyond TBO.
Click to expand...

Can argue with what you were, but here is the current policy.

SERVICE LETTER
652 Oliver Street
Williamsport, PA. 17701 U.S.A.
Tel. 570-323-6181 Fax. 570-327-7101 www.lycoming.textron.com
TO: All Lycoming Engine Owners, Operators, and Authorized Lycoming Distributors SUBJECT: Lycoming Engines Exchange Engine Core Policy
NOTE
Incomplete review of all the information in this document can cause errors. Read the entire Service Letter to make sure you have a complete understanding of the requirements.
This Service Letter communicates to Lycoming engine owners and operators Lycoming Engines’ exchange engine core policy.
An acceptable exchange engine core must first be in compliance with six basic standards as shown in Section A of this Service Letter. Although an exchange engine core may be in compliance with the standards in Section A; Section B identifies those exchange engine cores that are only acceptable towards the purchase of a Rebuilt or New exchange engine. Section C identifies particular disclaimers and stipulations where Lycoming Engines reserves the right not to accept an exchange engine core.
Lycoming Engines realizes that keeping replacement engine costs low is very important for all Lycoming engine owners and operators. Lycoming Engines relies on a supply of good quality exchange engine cores to keep these costs as low as possible.
Section A
An acceptable exchange engine core must meet 6 basic standards; active, assembled, complete, operable, engine data plate and total time. Below is a brief explanation for each standard.
1. Active – The exchange engine core must have accumulated “flight” time and had maintenance performed on it within the past 365 days from the date of its arrival at the Lycoming Engines factory.
2. Assembled – The exchange engine core must be in an “as removed from the airframe” condition. Exchange engine cores cannot be disassembled beyond a point that is necessary for its removal from the airframe.
3. Complete – The returned exchange engine core must be the same engine model and configured in a manner similar to the replacement engine. For example: if the replacement engine included a fuel pump, the exchange engine core must be returned with the same fuel pump that was last installed and operating during the “active” period described above, if the replacement engine included an alternator, the exchange engine core must be returned with the same alternator that was last installed
©2011 Avco Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Lycoming Engines is a division of Avco Corporation.
Service Letter No. L250A (Supersedes Service Letter No. L250) July 29, 2011
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and operating during the “active” period described above. The same thought process or “test” if you prefer, depicted in the two previous examples will be applicable to the entire exchange engine core including but not limited to all starting, charging, fuel delivery and ignition systems/components.
4. Operable – The exchange engine core must have been able to operate and perform to a level that safely permitted its use “in flight” up to the time it was removed from the airframe. The operable condition must be preserved until the exchange engine core arrives at the Lycoming Engines factory.
5. Engine Data Plate – The valid engine data plate must be attached to and returned with the exchange engine core.
6. Total Time – Verification of total time since new or factory rebuild such as the engine log book that includes the final engine removal entry with total time or a signed total time statement must be provided.
Prior written approval by Lycoming Engines must be obtained through an Authorized Lycoming Distributor for an exchange engine core that fails to meet any of the above standards. Some restrictions and/or additional charges will apply.
Section B
Some exchange engine cores described below are no longer acceptable towards the purchase of a Lycoming Engines factory Overhauled engine and can only be accepted towards the purchase of a New or Rebuilt exchange engine.
1. Exchange engine cores that last left the Lycoming Engines factory 36 or more years ago in new, rebuilt, or overhauled condition can only be used towards the purchase of a Rebuilt or New exchange engine.
2. Exchange engine cores originally manufactured in a narrow deck or “Standard” cylinder flange model configuration that are now only manufactured in a “Wide” cylinder flange crankcase model configuration will only be accepted as an exchange engine core towards the purchase of a New or Rebuilt exchange engine.
3. All engine models referenced in the latest edition of Lycoming Service Instruction 1406 that have not been converted to accommodate the large diameter lifter will only be accepted as an exchange engine core towards the purchase of a New or Rebuilt exchange engine.
Section C
Lycoming Engines’ exchange engine core policy also includes the following elements.
1. Exchange engine cores are required to be returned and arrive at the Lycoming Engines factory or an alternate location acceptable to Lycoming Engines within 120 days from the invoice date of the replacement engine. Lycoming Engines reserves the right to refuse to accept any exchange engine core that fails to be returned to the Lycoming Engines factory or an alternate location acceptable to Lycoming Engines within 120 days from the invoice date of the replacement engine.
2. Lycoming Engines reserves the right to refuse to accept any exchange engine core that has been modified in any way since originally being shipped from the Lycoming Engines factory.
3. Lycoming Engines reserves the right to refuse to accept any exchange engine core that does not consist of a genuine Lycoming crankcase and/or crankshaft. Additional charges will apply if
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Lycoming Engines agrees to accept an exchange engine core with a non-genuine Lycoming crankcase and/or crankshaft and the non-genuine crankcase and/or crankshaft will remain the property of Lycoming Engines and will be destroyed.
4. Lycoming Engines reserves the right to revoke all or any portion of exchange engine core credit when catastrophic internal damage is revealed during disassembly of the exchange engine core.
Lycoming Engines highly recommends that all owners and operators discuss the above criteria with the Authorized Lycoming Distributor before placing an order for a Lycoming Engines factory exchange engine on your behalf. Prior written approval by Lycoming Engines must be obtained through an Authorized Lycoming Distributor for an exchange engine core that fails to meet any of the above exchange engine core requirements. Some restrictions and/or additional charges will apply.
Authorized Lycoming Distributors are responsible to facilitate the return of exchange engine cores for their customers. A complete list of Authorized Lycoming Distributors can be found on our web site at www.lycoming.com.
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Keep flying the DA40 rentals and saving up for a gem. The time will come eventually, and you’ll be damn glad you waited for the right one. It’s like finding the right woman... the wrong one will empty your bank account faster than you can blink
 
MarcoDA40 said:
I came across a C152 at a very juicy price. Good interior, minor hail damage and it is for sale by owner. I can do a down payment and then pay monthly for it (less than my car payment).
The plane is still flying, it is air worthy and compressions are still good, paint is good, avionics are okay.. but like the title states... 4500hrs on the engine..
If I were to be able to squeeze even 300hrs out of that engine, by the time I fly it 300 hours I could potentially overhaul it. (With an engine reserve per hour x 300)

The seller is also the AP that works on the planes I currently rent/fly, been with them for almost 5 years and never had an issue, thats why I'm even considering this.

Run for the hills?

/unleash
Click to expand...

I'm not certain, but I'm fairly confident this airplane was looked at by a friend of mine. He could move past the high engine time but not the hail damage. (Although it "appeared" light, the dents from the strikes were quite deep.) If I recall correctly the seller wasn't interested in coming down on the price, which although initially attractive, was still much too high for an airplane in that condition. My friend declined to pursue it any further.
 
Ryan F. said:
I'm not certain, but I'm fairly confident this airplane was looked at by a friend of mine. He could move past the high engine time but not the hail damage. (Although it "appeared" light, the dents from the strikes were quite deep.) If I recall correctly the seller wasn't interested in coming down on the price, which although initially attractive, was still much too high for an airplane in that condition. My friend declined to pursue it any further.
Click to expand...
And there’s also a multitude of 152’s out there that meet that same description. Chances are, they are two different aircraft.
 
Ryanb said:
And there’s also a multitude of 152’s out there that meet that same description. Chances are, they are two different aircraft.
Click to expand...

Possible, but not likely - some of the other details mentioned by the OP matched.
 
Ryan F. said:
I'm not certain, but I'm fairly confident this airplane was looked at by a friend of mine. He could move past the high engine time but not the hail damage. (Although it "appeared" light, the dents from the strikes were quite deep.) If I recall correctly the seller wasn't interested in coming down on the price, which although initially attractive, was still much too high for an airplane in that condition. My friend declined to pursue it any further.
Click to expand...

Come on. Golf balls, as well as some soccer balls, are designed with dimples for true and straight flight. Why not airplanes?
 
An aircraft can fly forever with an engine that has never had an overhaul. "Overhaul" is an official FAA term that requires specific actions that the engine manufacturer says constitutes an overhaul. An operator can choose to IRAN an engine depending on the type of operation. Inspect and Repair as Necessary will eventually do everything required by the manufacturer of the engine only not at one time, so it can't be called an overhaul. The engine doesn't know how many hours since it's last "official" overhaul. If all its components are serviceable it will continue to run. Unless you look at the logbooks and see nothing has been done since overhaul, you may be discounting a perfectly good airplane that an A&P has kept in tip top running order with low time components.
 
Any old airplane has the potential to be a money pit so you might as well buy the cheapest one possible. Is 4200 the total time on the air frame as well? If so, a low time 152 with a run out engine seems to be worth more than a freshly overhauled low time 150. You stand a better chance of getting your investment back with a 152 as well.

The hail would be the deal breaker for me depending on my goals. Not that it will adversely effect the performance, but that if I ever wanted to put a paint job on it the hail damage would be very expensive and difficult to repair.
 
Grum.Man said:
Any old airplane has the potential to be a money pit so you might as well buy the cheapest one possible. Is 4200 the total time on the air frame as well? If so, a low time 152 with a run out engine seems to be worth more than a freshly overhauled low time 150. You stand a better chance of getting your investment back with a 152 as well.

The hail would be the deal breaker for me depending on my goals. Not that it will adversely effect the performance, but that if I ever wanted to put a paint job on it the hail damage would be very expensive and difficult to repair.
Click to expand...

I agree; the high engine time isn't the major issue here.

Hail damage is a really tough one to overcome. You're dealing with that as a major negative on both the front and back end of the transaction (nobody owns an airplane forever.) Even if you get in at the right purchase price and try to get back out with an attractive list, the population of buyers willing to entertain an aircraft in that condition is fairly slim. It's a long, always uphill slog when you decide to take on a "crippled" (in the marketability sense) aircraft.
 
Ryan F. said:
I'm not certain, but I'm fairly confident this airplane was looked at by a friend of mine. He could move past the high engine time but not the hail damage. (Although it "appeared" light, the dents from the strikes were quite deep.) If I recall correctly the seller wasn't interested in coming down on the price, which although initially attractive, was still much too high for an airplane in that condition. My friend declined to pursue it any further.
Click to expand...
If its in NC chances are it is the same plane.

I didnt go quiet, I just work long hours and cant always log on.. i have absolutely no reason or desire to "lie" about it like some have mentioned.... lol...

I saw the plane when it had its annual last year but I never thought that I would be in this position a year later so I didnt pay much attention to the details of the plane. I contacted the AP and he gave me more details so I might go look at it Wednesday and ill get pics then.
It is not rented at the FBO, the AP that works there just happens to own it.

I dont have much more info on it but I will by wednesday.

I dont NEED to finance it.. I could buy it tomorrow If I wanted, but I have the option to do interest-free monthly payments so why not.

BTW, price is Between $8500 - $10500 and it is up for Annual next month (it will be done wether its selling or not) So maybe that would be a good time to go see the naked plane..

I will look closer at the hail damage, dont remember how minor/major it is
 
MarcoDA40 said:
If its in NC chances are it is the same plane.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the one. I was primed to fly my friend down to see it until we got hi-res photos of the hail damage.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
I will look closer at the hail damage, dont remember how minor/major it is
Click to expand...

It was major enough that when reviewing the photographs the tech who'd be responsible for caring for the airplane had significant concerns. From a distance the damage looks light but the strikes that the plane did receive resulted in very deep dents.

Sounds like the seller reduced the price from the last time I heard about this plane.
 
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