4 questions I am stumped on.

Tarheel Pilot

Tarheel Pilot

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Tarheel Pilot
Ok, I have three questions on my pre-solo exam that I am stumped on.

1. "Who has the final authority and responsibility for the operation of the aircraft when you are flying solo."

Now I would say I do, because I'm the only guy in the aircraft, but I am also a student pilot, and in the FAR regarding student pilots, I cannot be an PIC. So what is the correct answer?

2. "When practicing steep turns, stalls, and maneuvering during slow flight, the entry altitude must allow a recovering to be completed no lower than."

I am hesitant to say 500ft. Is that correct?

3. "The Maximum crosswinds component specified by your instructor for solo takeoffs and landings?"

Well my instructor (neither one of them) gave me a maximum crosswinds component, so am I susspose to go with the factory recommendation? I know it's in the POH.

4. "Can a student pilot request Special VFR clerance in class D airspace when visibility is less than 3 miles?

I am hesitant to say No, but I can't find anything in my student pilot book or FAR/AIM about this. Can anyone please explain this?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. :)
 
1. You'll find the answer if you research three regs: 61.51(e)(4), 61.89(a), and 91.3.

2. It is spelled out in the specific maneuvers in the private pilot PTS. Check out This link for the answer if you don't have a copy.

3. If your instructor hasn't specified otherwise, put down the POH limits for now. But you'll definitely want to find a more specific answer from your instructor. I doubt he/she would allow you to go all the way to the limit right away.

4. Check out 61.89(a)(6). The special VFR stuff is 91.157.

C'mon, you didn't think I'd let you get by without a little research??

:D Good luck!
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
Ok, I have three questions on my pre-solo exam that I am stumped on.

1. "Who has the final authority and responsibility for the operation of the aircraft when you are flying solo."

Now I would say I do, because I'm the only guy in the aircraft, but I am also a student pilot, and in the FAR regarding student pilots, I cannot be an PIC. So what is the correct answer?
Click to expand...

Read again. When a student pilot is solo, he/she is the PIC. that is the only time a student pilot is allowed to log PIC time, is when solo.

2. "When practicing steep turns, stalls, and maneuvering during slow flight, the entry altitude must allow a recovering to be completed no lower than."

I am hesitant to say 500ft. Is that correct?
Click to expand...

you wont find this one in the FARs. Check the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards, available on www.faa.gov if you dont have a paper copy.

3. "The Maximum crosswinds component specified by your instructor for solo takeoffs and landings?"

Well my instructor (neither one of them) gave me a maximum crosswinds component, so am I susspose to go with the factory recommendation? I know it's in the POH.
Click to expand...

This will (should) be given by your instructor when you solo. Will be written in your limitations with your solo endorsements. If you havent been signed off for solo yet, just write "whatever is listed in my solo endorsement"

4. "Can a student pilot request Special VFR clerance in class D airspace when visibility is less than 3 miles?

I am hesitant to say No, but I can't find anything in my student pilot book or FAR/AIM about this. Can anyone please explain this?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. :)
Click to expand...

I believe there is something either in the Limitations section of the Student Pilot part of Part 61, or something in the section of Part 91 dealing with weather requirements, that discusses the minimum visibility for Student Pilot operations. check it out.
 
skyflyer8 said:
1. You'll find the answer if you research three regs: 61.51(e)(4), 61.89(a), and 91.3.

2. It is spelled out in the specific maneuvers in the private pilot PTS. Check out This link for the answer if you don't have a copy.

3. If your instructor hasn't specified otherwise, put down the POH limits for now. But you'll definitely want to find a more specific answer from your instructor. I doubt he/she would allow you to go all the way to the limit right away.

4. Check out 61.89(a)(6). The special VFR stuff is 91.157.

C'mon, you didn't think I'd let you get by without a little research??

:D Good luck!
Click to expand...


Nicely done Kate!
 
Thanks for the help guys. 4 questions out of 54 isn't bad hehe. :)
 
No prob.

Tony and I must have been racing.
 
haha yea kate, i saw that once i posted! you did a better job of making him look for answers, i couldve done better if i actually would have had some regs in front of me.
 
Hell, you guys are hard.

My answers are a bit easier. . .

1. If you're flying it, it's your vertical smile. That means you're responsible. End of story.

2. Damn if I know. The students that have used my 172 had to go by MY limits, which I impressed upon the instructor, and that was I wanted by-God at least one thousand, five-hundred feet AGL to recover from any screw-up encountered by practice maneuvers. Double that for stalls and slow flight.

Your instructor and the FARs may vary somewhat, but at JD's Hangar of Gray-Hair Tales & Terror, the aircraft owner's wishes always prevail.

3. Crosswind limits? Reckon that depends on where you're flyin'. If was out here in west Texas, your logbook limits would be something like "restricted to XWind components not to exceed 30 knots or the length of the crosswind cotton-field/turn row."

4. As far as special VFR goes, I didn't think a student would live to tell the tale if he/she had to ask for a SVFR to get an airplane on the ground. Nor would the instructor or the flight school. It falls under the heading of the infamous 7 P's. I would hope that you would look for an alternate airport that was easy VFR--in fact, I would hope that any VFR lowtime pilot would look for an alternate airport that isn't SVFR.

But that's just me, and probably only me and thus will come a public lashing here at the hands of 500-hour instructors who have already seen it all and done it all.:rolleyes:

If you ARE somehow caught in rapidly deteriorating conditions as a student, first thing you should do if you've already impregnated the pooch is declare an emergency and begin exercising your emergency authority to land at the safest, suitable airport you can. Never, ever let your ego convince you that you can do something your training and abilities have not proved you can do. Call up whatever freq you're on and square up with them--they'll damned sure help you out.

Regards.

-JD
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
3. "The Maximum crosswinds component specified by your instructor for solo takeoffs and landings?"

Well my instructor (neither one of them) gave me a maximum crosswinds component, so am I susspose to go with the factory recommendation? I know it's in the POH.
Click to expand...
Just a reminder that the max demonstrated crosswind component should also be on a placard in plain sight of the pilot. Look for it!

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Just a reminder that the max demonstrated crosswind component should also be on a placard in plain sight of the pilot. Look for it!

-Skip
Click to expand...

Seriously?

Not one airplane I've owned has ever had a placard for crosswind components. Hell, half of 'em have been placarded for "NO SMOKING" which I promptly removed. Don't smoke, but damned if I'm gonna give the tobacco nazis any free advertising.

I can see having a placard for xwind component. . . maybe (now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think it's such a good idea) on a flight school's training aircraft. Maybe.

But there are TWO crosswind components--yours and the airplane's. Often times, they are quite different.

Regards.

-JD
 
And remember the maximum demonstrated crosswind in the POH is NOT an operating limitation.
 
skyflyer8 said:
3. If your instructor hasn't specified otherwise, put down the POH limits for now. But you'll definitely want to find a more specific answer from your instructor. I doubt he/she would allow you to go all the way to the limit right away.
Click to expand...

Nicely done. Just to clarify, the POH is not a limit in any plane I've checked. It is the max demonstrated during certification test flights.
 
CowboyPilot said:
Seriously?
Click to expand...
Well, maybe not!! :dunno:

I know it is in the cockpit of the plane I trained in. I just checked the Type Certificate Data Sheet for required placards and it is not there. However, the TCDS does refer to "other placards required by the AFM" and I don't have an AFM handy to check.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Just a reminder that the max demonstrated crosswind component should also be on a placard in plain sight of the pilot. Look for it!

-Skip
Click to expand...

Should is a recommendation, shall is a mandatory requirement. Therefore your statement implies that this placard is optional.

Also I would imagine that the AFM for a particular aircraft is what determines is such a placard shall be displayed.
 
Skip Miller said:
Well, maybe not!! :dunno:

I know it is in the cockpit of the plane I trained in. I just checked the Type Certificate Data Sheet for required placards and it is not there. However, the TCDS does refer to "other placards required by the AFM" and I don't have an AFM handy to check.

-Skip
Click to expand...

That's what I was wondering.

On one hand, probably not a bad placard to have in a training aircraft for primary students and renters unfamiliar with the aircraft.

But on the other hand, it just makes for a busier panel and cockpit AND a good pilot should already know both the airplane's operating limitations and their own flying/ability limitations.

So I guess that brings me back to, "Hell if I know." :)

Regards.

-JD
 
ejensen said:
Nicely done. Just to clarify, the POH is not a limit in any plane I've checked. It is the max demonstrated during certification test flights.
Click to expand...

Very true. I would go one step beyond that, Eric, and say anything that's not in the "Limitations" section of the POH, is not a limit.
 
If you want an annotated copy of the PTS (will save you a lot of paper), as well as a couple of summary files that describe the Areas of Operation in plain English, they're online free in the "Library" section of www.faa-ground-school.com
 
Well I passed the Pre-Solo. I've did better than most students who've turned in their Pre-Solo. So, what happens now, I mean what should I expect now?
 
well i usually dont give someone a presolo test until i see that they are getting within a few lessons.

ask your instructor though, ive never flown with you :)
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
Yea, but how soon? I'm on a second instructor, I left the first one for various of reasons, one of them being I didn't feel like he was going to solo me.
Click to expand...
Patience......when it's time for you to solo you'll be the second one to know. In the meantime......relax...have fun....don't fight the airplane.
 
CowboyPilot said:
Hell, you guys are hard.

My answers are a bit easier. . .

1. If you're flying it, it's your vertical smile. That means you're responsible. End of story.
2. Damn if I know. The students that have used my 172 had to go by MY limits, which I impressed upon the instructor, and that was I wanted by-God at least one thousand, five-hundred feet AGL to recover from any screw-up encountered by practice maneuvers. Double that for stalls and slow flight.
3. Crosswind limits? Reckon that depends on where you're flyin'....
4. As far as special VFR goes, I didn't think a student would live to tell the tale .....If you ARE somehow caught in rapidly deteriorating conditions as a student, first thing you should do if you've already impregnated the pooch is declare an emergency and begin exercising your emergency authority to land at the safest, suitable airport you can. Never, ever let your ego convince you that you can do something your training and abilities have not proved you can do. Call up whatever freq you're on and square up with them--they'll damned sure help you out.

Regards.

-JD
Click to expand...
Shortened translation: "I know a bad deal when I see one." And patience, you will soon too.
 
But there are TWO crosswind components--yours and the airplane's. Often times, they are quite different.
Click to expand...

I've never seen a placard stating it. I do agree with JD's statement above!
 
Most light planes have a big placard describing the airworthiness category (e.g., Utility or Normal), g limits, maneuver restrictions (e.g., "No intentional spins"), the maneuvering speed, the max demonstrated crosswind component, and a few other items. This placard will be specified in the AFM and/or TCDS. I know it's required in every single Grumman, as well as every modern (say, 1965 and forward, although maybe earlier ones, too) Cessna, Beech, and Piper.
 
Tony Condon's and Kate's responses cut to the chase, and are among the most accurate. (although, others are too! I just like the simplicity and direct responses to the original questions. :) )

On the last one -- about Special VFR -- remember, student pilots have different visibility requirements for VFR than all other pilots. Kate did a nice job of noting the regulation: 61.89(a)(6). Take some time to read that entire section. It is important for you at this stage in your training.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Most light planes have a big placard describing the airworthiness category (e.g., Utility or Normal), g limits, maneuver restrictions (e.g., "No intentional spins"), the maneuvering speed, the max demonstrated crosswind component, and a few other items. This placard will be specified in the AFM and/or TCDS. I know it's required in every single Grumman, as well as every modern (say, 1965 and forward, although maybe earlier ones, too) Cessna, Beech, and Piper.
Click to expand...

I'll have to check the new Cessna's, but I don't think crosswinds are placarded. Everything else is, along with a "do it right or die" disclaimer.

Edit: Looking at the POH - the placards for the 182S do not mention crosswinds. They do talk about normal manuevers, manuevering speeds, and day/night/ifr/vfr, but no mention of g limits or demonstrated X-winds on Placards.
 
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Skip Miller said:
Well, maybe not!! :dunno:

I know it is in the cockpit of the plane I trained in. I just checked the Type Certificate Data Sheet for required placards and it is not there. However, the TCDS does refer to "other placards required by the AFM" and I don't have an AFM handy to check.
Click to expand...
And yes, it is in the AFM. Section 2, limitations (for a Piper Archer II). In Section 2.25, Required Placards:

<stuff deleted>
Va = 113KIAS at 1550# (SEE P.O.H.)
DEMO. X-WIND 17 KTS.

So is a placard for the demonstrated crosswind component unique to Pipers?

-Skip
 
Ron Levy said:
Most light planes have a big placard describing the airworthiness category (e.g., Utility or Normal), g limits, maneuver restrictions (e.g., "No intentional spins"), the maneuvering speed, the max demonstrated crosswind component, and a few other items. This placard will be specified in the AFM and/or TCDS. I know it's required in every single Grumman, as well as every modern (say, 1965 and forward, although maybe earlier ones, too) Cessna, Beech, and Piper.
Click to expand...

Ron,

As far as the Cessnas go, my '67 172 Skyhawk doesn't have such a placard (and when it's W/B is in the Utility category, you can spin it like a top :)). My '78 CardinalRG, has a placard though I can't remember my 1980 182 Skylane having had one. The '84 Saratoga had one by the the fuel selector switch. It was small and barely legible.

The 1960 C-150 I bought last year and am refurbishing will be used almost exclusively for primary student training and will DEFINITELY have such a placard in it.

Not sure when the "absolute" year was that the placards were supposed to appear. Now you're gonna have me talking to my A&P/IA guy. Probably cost me a six-pack for that answer too.

Regards.

-JD
 
There's no crosswind mentioned on the placards listed in the AFMs for the 1985 C152, the C172P, or the Diamond DA20-A1.

Interestingly, Diamond goes to town listing every single word anywhere in the cockpit, including on dimmer switches and the like. They also list "No Smoking." If I'm not mistaken, this gives the no smoking sign a legal status in that aircraft. Smoking in the aircraft would violate the limitations of the aircraft, and removal of the placard would render the aircraft unairworthy. Cute.

Chris
 
skyflyer8 said:
1. You'll find the answer if you research three regs: 61.51(e)(4), 61.89(a), and 91.3.
Click to expand...
I'm only going to quibble with one piece of a great answer.

Remember that separation of the logging and acting rules? It works both ways. 61.51(e)(4) talks about a student pilot =logging= PIC. It says absolutely nothing about a student pilot =acting as= PIC.

Like many other "acting as PIC" rules, the one for student pilots is also covered in 61.31, in this case 61.31(d)(3),
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm only going to quibble with one piece of a great answer.

Remember that separation of the logging and acting rules? It works both ways. 61.51(e)(4) talks about a student pilot =logging= PIC. It says absolutely nothing about a student pilot =acting as= PIC.

Like many other "acting as PIC" rules, the one for student pilots is also covered in 61.31, in this case 61.31(d)(3),
Click to expand...

That's not always true -- when I did my helicopter add-on, my CFI gave me a blanket endorsement saying I had "received the training as required 61.31(D)(3) to serve as a PIC in a R-22 helicopter...".

This was in lieu of the solo endorsements a primary student normally gets (since I had a PP-ASEL rating), and allowed me to both log and act as PIC. I would imagine that the endorsement could be used for any add-on rating.
 
you werent a student pilot Bob. We do the same type of endorsement regularly for Glider transition students from power flying
 
CowboyPilot said:
As far as the Cessnas go, my '67 172 Skyhawk doesn't have such a placard
Click to expand...
I don't have the C-172 TCDS immediately available, but if I were you, I'd check it to see whether it wasn't required back then or if that placard got lost somewhere along the line. I know that missing placards won't prevent the engine from starting or the wings developing lift, but it does make the plane legally unairworthy.
 
For JD, it appears from the above-posted TCDS that the 1967 C-172's do require the placard I described, and it should read:
This airplane must be operated in compliance with the operating limitations stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals.
NORMAL CATEGORY
Maximum design weight 2300 lbs.
Refer to weight and balance data for loading instructions.
Flight maneuvering load factors Flaps up +3.8 -1.52
Flaps down +3.5
No acrobatic maneuvers including spins approved.
UTILITY CATEGORY
Maximum design weight 2000 lbs.
Baggage compartment and rear seat must not be occupied.
Flight maneuvering load factors Flaps up +4.4 -1.76
Flaps down +3.5
No acrobatic maneuvers except those listed below.
Maneuver Max. Entry speed
Chandelles 122 mph (106 knots)
Lazy eights 122 mph (106 knots)
Steep turns 122 mph (106 knots)
Spins Slow deceleration
Stalls (except whip stalls) Slow deceleration​
Note that it doesn't include the crosswind data, but it does have all the other stuff I mentioned, and must be there for your plane to be legal to fly.
 
On the SVFR question, one point of having SVFR available is for when a VFR option is either not available or beyond fuel range; and that can happen to a student pilot perhaps more easily than a non-student. Solo takeoff and the weather changes before you get back. My Flight Examiner for Private Pilot asked that specific question. You are up over Lake Washington (Seattle area) with weather closing in, cieling under 1000, vis under 3 miles, and everywhere you look it seems worse. What do you do? The answer she wanted was ask for an SVFR approach to Renton airport next to the lake. Now, if I were a student pilot in that same situation what would I do? Give up and land in the lake? No, I would do the SAME THING, and if someone had questions later I would have some answers for them. The only difference is a student pilot may need to declare an emergency in this situation.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
On the SVFR question, one point of having SVFR available is for when a VFR option is either not available or beyond fuel range; and that can happen to a student pilot perhaps more easily than a non-student. Solo takeoff and the weather changes before you get back. My Flight Examiner for Private Pilot asked that specific question. You are up over Lake Washington (Seattle area) with weather closing in, cieling under 1000, vis under 3 miles, and everywhere you look it seems worse. What do you do? The answer she wanted was ask for an SVFR approach to Renton airport next to the lake. Now, if I were a student pilot in that same situation what would I do? Give up and land in the lake? No, I would do the SAME THING, and if someone had questions later I would have some answers for them. The only difference is a student pilot may need to declare an emergency in this situation.
Click to expand...

I'd probably want to beat hell out of the instructor for taking such chances with iffy weather for a student XC solo.

Yep, in the real world you have to deal with those things. But in the student world, you should crawl, walk, run, sprint, marathon in a somewhat linear order. Sending a student out on the long solo XC with questionable weather able to close in that quickly is crap. Unfortunately, I know outhouse-quality instructors who've done it and more than once. I'm sure most of us do.

I'd much rather have a student learning the essentials of pilotage and airmanship in order to build confidence by getting from point A to point B to point C and then back to point A than worrying about the possibility of them having to declare an emergency because of weather. They already have enough going on during that first long solo.

Regards.

-JD
 
Ron Levy said:
For JD, it appears from the above-posted TCDS that the 1967 C-172's do require the placard I described, and it should read:
This airplane must be operated in compliance with the operating limitations stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals.
NORMAL CATEGORY
Maximum design weight 2300 lbs.
Refer to weight and balance data for loading instructions.
Flight maneuvering load factors Flaps up +3.8 -1.52
Flaps down +3.5
No acrobatic maneuvers including spins approved.
UTILITY CATEGORY
Maximum design weight 2000 lbs.
Baggage compartment and rear seat must not be occupied.
Flight maneuvering load factors Flaps up +4.4 -1.76
Flaps down +3.5
No acrobatic maneuvers except those listed below.
Maneuver Max. Entry speed
Chandelles 122 mph (106 knots)
Lazy eights 122 mph (106 knots)
Steep turns 122 mph (106 knots)
Spins Slow deceleration
Stalls (except whip stalls) Slow deceleration​
Note that it doesn't include the crosswind data, but it does have all the other stuff I mentioned, and must be there for your plane to be legal to fly.
Click to expand...

Well, Hell's bells. . . 'pears I've been flying illegal for several hundred hours.

Guess I'll have to go down to Clyde's Corner and get one of the Lovebird owners to get me fixed up--he has a plastic engraving set up and makes placards for a bunch of us out there.

And it honest-to-God has to say ALL of that crap?

Damn government. That's like sticking signs that read "Warning! Don't stick your hand under a lawnmower while the engine is on and the blade is spinning" on lawnmowers. . . Damn tort scumsucking lawyers.

All that stuff is in the POH (along with the graveyard serious quote about avoiding slips with flaps clap trap). Can't believe the damned government wants all of that stuck on the upholstery somewhere too.

Can't redo my own seats the way I want 'em. Have to stick "No Smoking" signs up everywhere even though the only way anyone will ever smoke in any one of MY airplanes is if their nose is on fire. Have to have half the freaking POH on a piece of plastic stuck somewhere in case the FAR Nazis decide to jackboot me. Have to hire a lawyer to decipher the writings of OTHER lawyers just to make sure I won't need to hire a swarm of lawyers to defend me for not getting what another gaggle of lawyers wrote and had approved by non-practicing lawyers, aka Elected Officials. . .

Jesu du Christo, what a mess.

Maybe I'll sell the damn airplanes and keep the freaking big SeaRay. . .

-JD
 
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