3rd Class Medical with Past DWI's

Will a case of high BAC automatically mean dependency/abuse? Seems from everything I have read that it hinges on the Neuro-psycohology assessment you do.

It will create a strong presumption of dependency/abuse. Presumptions are rebuttable with evidence, but it is a tough hill to climb.

Part of it would also be the police report of the DWI. If you're .20 and walking and talking pretty normally, the odds are that you have a tolerance that comes with dependence and abuse. If you're .20 and you fall out of the car when the cop opens the door and can't stand up straight, oddly enough, that's better for you with the FAA.
 
I have found myself in this battle of getting my medical back. I got the letter with about 10 things to complete and send in to the FAA for review. As expected their wanting 10 years of driving records my problem is Oklahoma only goes back 3 years by state law. So it's impossible for me to obtain 10 years worth. The DPS said they wouldn't write me a letter stating such either and advised to print off the law and submit it. Im afraid that may not work. Any advice?
 
I have found myself in this battle of getting my medical back. I got the letter with about 10 things to complete and send in to the FAA for review. As expected their wanting 10 years of driving records my problem is Oklahoma only goes back 3 years by state law. So it's impossible for me to obtain 10 years worth. The DPS said they wouldn't write me a letter stating such either and advised to print off the law and submit it. Im afraid that may not work. Any advice?
Pick up the phone and call OKC for their recommendation. I found their staff to be extremely helpful. YMMV.
 
This is one reason I'm glad I don't drink!

Indeed. I am baffled by these events... I guess I just don't understand the attachment some people have to alcohol. I don't drink so it just seems really bizarre to me. My dad was a 747 pilot for many years. He rarely drank during his career but really started doing so after he retired and it nearly killed him. I just see no reason to impair up my brain.

To the OP: good luck. Please stop drinking.
 
Mind sharing that list with us? Exact wording would be helpful.

It's of the standard affair for this type of matter. Police reports, court records, lab reports with bac level, 10 years worth of driving records, ect.

I've got pretty much everything covered except 2 things. As stated before Ok driving recordsonly goes back 3 years. The Ok highway patrol are giving me a hard time about coughing up a police report from 2006 and the Department of public safety says they most likely don't have any records back that far and they will not write me a letter out stating as much. So I'm kinda in a pickle there is why I was asking if anyone might have advice on what the FAA's take on that would be? I've done my due diligence If they don't want to give up the records or write a letter I can't make them.

Also if anyone's interested I've been clean and sober since 2008.
 
I bet someone in the CAMI office which is in...wait for it...Oklahoma City knows how to make them happy with OK applicants. I suspect your driving record possibly backed up with a criminal background check would make them happier.
 
I bet someone in the CAMI office which is in...wait for it...Oklahoma City knows how to make them happy with OK applicants. I suspect your driving record possibly backed up with a criminal background check would make them happier.

Granted I only talked to the gal who probably answers the phone and not any one with any sway. But I did talk with them a couple weeks ago about the 10 years of driving records thing, the lady who answered the phone said they wanted a letter stating they only go back 3 years. Well, DPS don't do letters.

I thought as well CAMI being based in OKC I'm not the only Ok pilot to ever have to do this that they would know their own states laws but who knows. I'll call and ask for someone in charge.
 
If anyone else runs into this pickle of agencies not wanting to cough up records, I contacted the FAA today and they told me if the agencies didn't cooperate in giving me the records to include that in my statement and they would take it into consideration.
 
So I wonder if the new PBOR2 rules if DUI people no longer have to worry about this??
 
Perhaps. A drunk pilot (part 91) is most likely just going to kill himself or his passengers (and his passengers should be in a good position to detect his drunkenness)
 
Perhaps. A drunk pilot (part 91) is most likely just going to kill himself or his passengers (and his passengers should be in a good position to detect his drunkenness)

The latter supposition is dubious. First off, if the pilot is drunk, there's a good chance the passengers are also impaired. Second, the FAA rules rightfully so assume your passengers don't know squat about what is necessary to safely pilot an aircraft.

Perhaps we should require the pilot to place a sign prominently in the cabin:

PASSENGER WARNING
The pilot of this aircraft may be drunk and may not meet the safety standards for FAA certificated pilots.
 
I have found myself in this battle of getting my medical back. I got the letter with about 10 things to complete and send in to the FAA for review. As expected their wanting 10 years of driving records my problem is Oklahoma only goes back 3 years by state law. So it's impossible for me to obtain 10 years worth. The DPS said they wouldn't write me a letter stating such either and advised to print off the law and submit it. Im afraid that may not work. Any advice?


Try calling your auto insurance company, they may have some records.
 
Hello all. This has been an informative thread except for one thing, I'm 23. It seems to me many of you are much older and are dealing with DUIs in distant past. My DUI was was in February of 2015. I am beginning to look into schools that offer a UAV course and there is one I found near me that offers classes that are in line of what I want out of school. The first semester and credit class is a 60 hour in flight private pilot/airplane certification of which a class two medical certificate is required. I'm looking into it and waiting to hear back from the school but hopefully that doesn't have to be done in order to start the other classes. If thats the case I then have much more time in dealing with getting the medical certificate. My question is, how difficult is it going to be and what should my first steps be to get me going?Advice? Or am I screwed?
BAC was pretty high, I didn't get far out of the bar area and made a left turn from the right lane into the right lane and instantly pulled over.. Shouldn't have been driving and regret it because It keeps biting me in the ass and it hasn't even been 2 years yet.
Maybe someone can tell me I'm not totally out of luck because the more I read the worse it looks.
 
First, why rely on internet advice? Go to a professional because you will need professional advice. Read post #3... That is who I would contact if I were in your shoes. A word of advice... Do not BS this man!

-Skip
 
Try calling your auto insurance company, they may have some records.
In maryland they also "only go back three years" ......except in case of prosecution in which case they pull your entire record which they have. I would bet your state also has your entire record. A good lawyer should be able to obtain it. Are you still drinking? Did I miss it whereupon you stated you no longer drink? If you still drink you should solve that problem first. Also be aware that statistics show that if you have been caught dui you probably have driven 5- 10 other times drunk and were not caught. Enforcement is well aware of all these study's!
 
I just completed a 4+ month battle to get my third class medical. Just to recant my experience i was initially deferred by the examiner. Next OKC requested the following initially.
*Full narrative police reports of all prior arrests
*all court records
*treatment records
*a statement from me with regards to my past, present and future alcohol use
*driving records for the last 10 years
Next they requested a letter from me describing the specifics of one of my DUIs. Finally they needed 3 letters from responsible members of the community attesting to my sobriety (10+ years).
 
I just completed a 4+ month battle to get my third class medical. Just to recant my experience i was initially deferred by the examiner. Next OKC requested the following initially.
*Full narrative police reports of all prior arrests
*all court records
*treatment records
*a statement from me with regards to my past, present and future alcohol use
*driving records for the last 10 years
Next they requested a letter from me describing the specifics of one of my DUIs. Finally they needed 3 letters from responsible members of the community attesting to my sobriety (10+ years).

I've had 3 DUI's. 1996, 1998, 1999. Nothing since. They are all expunged. Still on DMV. No alcohol problems since. 1996 was a noise report 0.20 BAC, 1998 accident related 0.15 BAC, 1999 0.14 BAC. I really don't even drink, not on weekends, not on a regular basis, not really much any more at all. Is there any hope for me? I can get letters from professors that liked my work in college and from current employer of 10 years. Do I have a prayer in heck?
 
I just completed a 4+ month battle to get my third class medical. Just to recant my experience i was initially deferred by the examiner. Next OKC requested the following initially.
*Full narrative police reports of all prior arrests
*all court records
*treatment records
*a statement from me with regards to my past, present and future alcohol use
*driving records for the last 10 years
Next they requested a letter from me describing the specifics of one of my DUIs. Finally they needed 3 letters from responsible members of the community attesting to my sobriety (10+ years).

I've had 3 DUI's. 1996, 1998, 1999. Nothing since. They are all expunged. Still on DMV. No alcohol problems since. 1996 was a noise report 0.20 BAC, 1998 accident related 0.15 BAC, 1999 0.14 BAC. I really don't even drink, not on weekends, not on a regular basis, not really much any more at all. Is there any hope for me? I can get letters from professors that liked my work in college and from current employer of 10 years. Do I have a prayer in heck?
 
I've had 3 DUI's. 1996, 1998, 1999. Nothing since. They are all expunged. Still on DMV. No alcohol problems since. 1996 was a noise report 0.20 BAC, 1998 accident related 0.15 BAC, 1999 0.14 BAC. I really don't even drink, not on weekends, not on a regular basis, not really much any more at all. Is there any hope for me? I can get letters from professors that liked my work in college and from current employer of 10 years. Do I have a prayer in heck?

Read back in the thread and contact either Doc Bruce or another HIMS rated AME, and do NOT apply for a medical without speaking to a professional who deals with FAA substance abuse cases and has a solid track record of success with them.

Once you apply, clocks start ticking and if those clocks run out it becomes automatic denial.

All of this should already have been clear from the rest of the thread, but we'll be nice and repeat it. This advice hasn't changed in a long time. Note that the thread started in 2012.

There are options to fly which do NOT entail a medical, and Bruce or any professional who does this stuff regularly can describe those options to you as well. One of them is already not available to you due to the substance abuse record, I believe.

We all recommend Bruce because he's by far the most well known Doc who helps people with difficult medical cases, and many of us have met him personally and know he's a stand up guy.

He will be your advocate to FAA if, and only if, you're absolutely 100% straight with him. And like he says in post #3, he's going to make you get a current liver and chem test to prove it.

Read the entire thread and contact him. You need professional assistance to do this, even if you believe the drinking is all far in your past.
 
It's going to a tough slog. Multiple alcohol convictions, all at high BAC imply a substantial tolerance. Denver is right, you will need a top notch AME to consult with you PRIOR to the exam to have a chance. Even, if it is possible, it's going to come with a lot of expensive and evaluation anymore.

Further, as far as the FAA is concerned, you are deluded. They are going to want 100% abstinance, not just "I don't really drink anymore, just once and a while" with testing to back it up.

If the DMV still has it, it is not expunged. Frankly, I don't know of any state that will let you expunge multiple DUIS.
 
What Denver Pilot said. There are more issues at play than just encounters with law enforcement while your BAC was high endings to get the LEao's attention.

What you don't know and trying to do this without the professional guidance of Dr. Bruce Chien or a HIMS AME like him work quickly end your flying opportunities.
 
It's going to a tough slog. Multiple alcohol convictions, all at high BAC imply a substantial tolerance. Denver is right, you will need a top notch AME to consult with you PRIOR to the exam to have a chance. Even, if it is possible, it's going to come with a lot of expensive and evaluation anymore.

Further, as far as the FAA is concerned, you are deluded. They are going to want 100% abstinance, not just "I don't really drink anymore, just once and a while" with testing to back it up.

If the DMV still has it, it is not expunged. Frankly, I don't know of any state that will let you expunge multiple DUIS.

Thanks for your information. I really appreciate it!
Yeah, I have the documents stamped and approved, all of my DUI's have been expunged. CA resident. I'd load them to show you, but what's the point in that, I'm here for Q&A, and I'm being honest. It would only hurt me to lie to myself right? No point. I did request change of record with DMV with form DL207, but havent' checked if it actually has dropped off the DMV; not sure it will drop off DMV even with expungement.
 
Brian, I think he is indicating the most recent one was MORE than 10 years ago.

The AME cannot issue this one. He has to clear it with OKC:

In the case 2> 10 years ago, you need letters from your employer, identible members in the community saying that you are reliable, not late to work, sober, etc. More is better.

A drivers' license search going back to the begining of time when you were licensed. Multi state if need be, to show these are teh onlyi ones and the last 10 years is clean.

Court papers not required.

No CADC eval should be needed.
I would require an ALT and a CBC to go to bat for the airman.

BC.


I just got a comment from someone mentioning that I should talk to Dr Bruce. Is this you?

The comment:
/* Read back in the thread and contact either Doc Bruce or another HIMS rated AME, and do NOT apply for a medical without speaking to a professional who deals with FAA substance abuse cases and has a solid track record of success with them. */

In my original reply, I mentioned 1996, 98, 99 DUI's. If I have to be abstinent I can without a doubt. I was a foolish 21 year old because I drove. I'm sure there are thousands of college kids that drank way more than me, but because they didn't get DUI's it is never known. So here I am. I can't make up any stories because it's part of my record and a record is a record.

Before I get into detail, I just want to make sure that I am contacting the person that people seem to be referring in this thread.

Thanks!
 
Thanks for your information. I really appreciate it!
Yeah, I have the documents stamped and approved, all of my DUI's have been expunged. CA resident. I'd load them to show you, but what's the point in that, I'm here for Q&A, and I'm being honest. It would only hurt me to lie to myself right? No point. I did request change of record with DMV with form DL207, but havent' checked if it actually has dropped off the DMV; not sure it will drop off DMV even with expungement.
According to Dr. Bruce Chien, who is an expert on difficult medical certification issues, expungement doesn't work for federal purposes:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...medical-certificate.33636/page-3#post-2120011
 
What you're not quite grokking is that expunged likely isn't enough for the FAA to "bless" you. They are looking more at the psych tendencies and alcohol tolerances. Not that the criminal system removed the record.

Again, read the entire thread here and ones similar in this forum.
 
Richard's linked thread points to the comment that expungement is a state level thing and Bruce recommending checking of your FBI file.

@FullHeartedly, getting your FBI file might be worth the effort to see what is recorded there. Start with this page: https://www.fbi.gov/services/records-management/foipa/requesting-fbi-records

Yes. I've done that. Thanks for the chiming in! That's what I did to get me started in investigating myself and what prompted me to ask for expungement; and I got granted those expungements. I guess it doesn't matter though it seems ("in the interest of justice"). I got my DMV from 2011 still in my files. I'm going to make a trip to DMV this week also to inspect if those are still there; I filed a, DL 207, Driver License Record Correction Request - CA DMV , post expungements granted -- still need to verify if my DMV record will or what will be annotated or removed...?
 
Richard's linked thread points to the comment that expungement is a state level thing and Bruce recommending checking of your FBI file.

@FullHeartedly, getting your FBI file might be worth the effort to see what is recorded there. Start with this page: https://www.fbi.gov/services/records-management/foipa/requesting-fbi-records

I take that back. I have not done this. I did something similar? I went to a 3rd parth and they sent for my DoJ records. Is this the same thing?
 
I take that back. I have not done this. I did something similar? I went to a 3rd parth and they sent for my DoJ records. Is this the same thing?

Very few here really KNOW the answer to this. And the part you're missing is that unlike a lot of bureaucracies, FAA aeromedical is first and foremost a medical organization. Not a law enforcement organization. They're Doctors. Not lawyers and judges. They don't think the same way as lawyers and judges.

Law enforcement will pull records and follow a particular set of rules to do their job. Judge will say "not a problem" or "must do X to meet the statute" and it's fairly cut and dried. Most people are used to this sort of bureaucracy.

FAA will pull records and say "Show us proof that you have been treated for this behavioral problem from YOUR medical professionals. We are not your doctors."

Records will indicate/hint at a medical/psychological pattern to FAA in substance abuse cases.

Docs like Bruce sit in the breach between the Doctors who are responsible for your care and behavior and translate that information into what FAA wants to see in very specific words on paper with their signature next to it AND his.

HIMS Docs are a system FAA trusts and ONLY a HIMS Doctor and your medical Doc and usually a psych Doc MUST send PROOF that there is no BEHAVIORAL problem today to FAA.

FAA doesn't really have a time limit on substance abuse automatically not being a problem anymore like a law court might. They want specific evidence of treatment, compliance with a recognized treatment program, and various other things that ONLY a current and up to date HIMS Doc will know the specifics of.

It's not optional. Substance abuse MUST go through a HIMS Doc, as far as I can tell. A professional Doc who has the FAA blessing MUST be used.

The information the HIMS Doc collects comes from your medical professionals and they review it and also sign it saying "FAA, this person meets the standards of being well treated AND meets the standards of documented proof that the behavioral treatment worked..."

I noticed you quoted him trying to get his attention. Doc stops by here from time to time, but he's available directly at his email or via telephone side that's his vocation and those contacts get his first priority for his time.

Pilot message boards are something he does as a side help thing for the community.

But you're best off to call or write him directly. He WILL help. He is very good at what he does. He will tell you concisely and directly what he and FAA require to issue a Medical certificate to someone with your specific substance abuse medical history. It's about making sure you're healthy with documented proof of treatment.

FAA won't accept anything less. And they won't take your word for it. Professional medical statements are required. FAA will not take on the risk of any pilot saying a pattern of substance abuse is in their past. Every substance abuser says that, and they know it. The only way they can accept it is if a person treating the substance abuser says it's in their past.

That's the hard knocks of substance abuse and FAA. The Doctors at aeromedical need documents from other professional doctors saying you're not behaving badly and they make those doctors provide that through a specially certified AME with HIMS privileges.
 
Very few here really KNOW the answer to this. And the part you're missing is that unlike a lot of bureaucracies, FAA aeromedical is first and foremost a medical organization. Not a law enforcement organization. They're Doctors. Not lawyers and judges. They don't think the same way as lawyers and judges.

Law enforcement will pull records and follow a particular set of rules to do their job. Judge will say "not a problem" or "must do X to meet the statute" and it's fairly cut and dried. Most people are used to this sort of bureaucracy.

FAA will pull records and say "Show us proof that you have been treated for this behavioral problem from YOUR medical professionals. We are not your doctors."

Records will indicate/hint at a medical/psychological pattern to FAA in substance abuse cases.

Docs like Bruce sit in the breach between the Doctors who are responsible for your care and behavior and translate that information into what FAA wants to see in very specific words on paper with their signature next to it AND his.

HIMS Docs are a system FAA trusts and ONLY a HIMS Doctor and your medical Doc and usually a psych Doc MUST send PROOF that there is no BEHAVIORAL problem today to FAA.

FAA doesn't really have a time limit on substance abuse automatically not being a problem anymore like a law court might. They want specific evidence of treatment, compliance with a recognized treatment program, and various other things that ONLY a current and up to date HIMS Doc will know the specifics of.

It's not optional. Substance abuse MUST go through a HIMS Doc, as far as I can tell. A professional Doc who has the FAA blessing MUST be used.

The information the HIMS Doc collects comes from your medical professionals and they review it and also sign it saying "FAA, this person meets the standards of being well treated AND meets the standards of documented proof that the behavioral treatment worked..."

I noticed you quoted him trying to get his attention. Doc stops by here from time to time, but he's available directly at his email or via telephone side that's his vocation and those contacts get his first priority for his time.

Pilot message boards are something he does as a side help thing for the community.

But you're best off to call or write him directly. He WILL help. He is very good at what he does. He will tell you concisely and directly what he and FAA require to issue a Medical certificate to someone with your specific substance abuse medical history. It's about making sure you're healthy with documented proof of treatment.

FAA won't accept anything less. And they won't take your word for it. Professional medical statements are required. FAA will not take on the risk of any pilot saying a pattern of substance abuse is in their past. Every substance abuser says that, and they know it. The only way they can accept it is if a person treating the substance abuser says it's in their past.

That's the hard knocks of substance abuse and FAA. The Doctors at aeromedical need documents from other professional doctors saying you're not behaving badly and they make those doctors provide that through a specially certified AME with HIMS privileges.

I was searching what I needed and didn't know the proper jargon to use or how to ask the question. I think this is EXACTLY the advise I was looking for. Thank you so much for putting the time and the effort in spelling it out for me. I am printing this as I speak.
 
I was searching what I needed and didn't know the proper jargon to use or how to ask the question. I think this is EXACTLY the advise I was looking for. Thank you so much for putting the time and the effort in spelling it out for me. I am printing this as I speak.

No worries. It's a recurring sort of question here. One of us always pitches in and tries out best to answer when the Doc is out. :)

Really no need to print anything I've said. Email or call Doc Bruce or any of his HIMS rated colleagues (I favor Bruce because I know he's an advocate for people who need assistance and are serious enough to go through the process, and I've met him... but I know nothing about his compatriots in HIMS at all...) and get a consultation started.

Print the stuff Bruce or his contemporaries sends you! That's going to be the stuff you need to do. :)

If you're planning on flying soon, start the consultation and information gathering quickly after talking to a HIMS Doc about what the required tests will cost, and do it sooner rather than later. Some of the things you may have to do can take months to complete. It all depends upon the medical protocol.

Bruce also knows ways to help move the package through the FAA bureaucracy. Which no matter how fast, is still going to be a big wait at the end.

AeroMedicalDoc.com is Bruce's website. His contact info is there.
 
No worries. It's a recurring sort of question here. One of us always pitches in and tries out best to answer when the Doc is out. :)

Really no need to print anything I've said. Email or call Doc Bruce or any of his HIMS rated colleagues (I favor Bruce because I know he's an advocate for people who need assistance and are serious enough to go through the process, and I've met him... but I know nothing about his compatriots in HIMS at all...) and get a consultation started.

Print the stuff Bruce or his contemporaries sends you! That's going to be the stuff you need to do. :)

If you're planning on flying soon, start the consultation and information gathering quickly after talking to a HIMS Doc about what the required tests will cost, and do it sooner rather than later. Some of the things you may have to do can take months to complete. It all depends upon the medical protocol.

Bruce also knows ways to help move the package through the FAA bureaucracy. Which no matter how fast, is still going to be a big wait at the end.

AeroMedicalDoc.com is Bruce's website. His contact info is there.

You are awesome my friend! I'm on it! In it to win it... hopefully. I pray to God that I can fly some day SOON :)
 
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